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So today i discovered something shocking

Adam_Godzilla
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5/14/2015 4:58:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
So in class, my teacher asked us if we would kill our own baby to save our skin, and people said yes.

The situation given to us was that we were all lost on a desert in a group of five, along with our own baby son/daughter. The baby starts crying out loud and this attracts the attention of hungry wolves (not the actual example). My teacher gave us two choices:

1. Kill the baby so the wolves don't know where we are and we can let the group survive.
2. Don't kill the baby, and let the whole group die.

There are no exceptions to this (unrealistic). In the class, about 80% chose to kill the baby.

Arguments people made for killing the baby:
1. Prevent its suffering. Don't let it die getting eaten by the wolves.
2. Kill one baby and four more survive.

I found this shocking. I don't judge them for their decision. But I still find it surprising. I could never kill my own child. Not for logical or rational reasons. But because I could never hold the knife properly to gut my child.

I think that utilitarianism is prevalent in society and people care more about the whole than themselves. Perhaps evolution is the cause of this and we all feel some responsibility for our group. Maybe that's the drive behind so many protests is because people feel the need to protect the nation or protect the group, even at the cost of a few lives.
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Maikuru
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5/14/2015 5:50:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sounds like your teacher watches M.A.S.H. Ask him about it, it may win you some points.
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8elB6U5THIqaSm5QhiNLVnRJA
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5/14/2015 5:59:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 4:58:11 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
So in class, my teacher asked us if we would kill our own baby to save our skin, and people said yes.

The situation given to us was that we were all lost on a desert in a group of five, along with our own baby son/daughter. The baby starts crying out loud and this attracts the attention of hungry wolves (not the actual example). My teacher gave us two choices:

1. Kill the baby so the wolves don't know where we are and we can let the group survive.
2. Don't kill the baby, and let the whole group die.

There are no exceptions to this (unrealistic). In the class, about 80% chose to kill the baby.

Arguments people made for killing the baby:
1. Prevent its suffering. Don't let it die getting eaten by the wolves.
2. Kill one baby and four more survive.

I found this shocking. I don't judge them for their decision. But I still find it surprising. I could never kill my own child. Not for logical or rational reasons. But because I could never hold the knife properly to gut my child.

I think that utilitarianism is prevalent in society and people care more about the whole than themselves. Perhaps evolution is the cause of this and we all feel some responsibility for our group. Maybe that's the drive behind so many protests is because people feel the need to protect the nation or protect the group, even at the cost of a few lives.

Because muffling the sound or attacking the wolves strategically is not an option...
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XLAV
Posts: 13,719
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5/14/2015 6:06:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If its someone else's baby then yeah, I'll kill it.

If its mine, then nah. I'd kill the other people if they try to kill my baby.
XLAV
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5/14/2015 6:08:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This reminds me of Chris from TWD. The story about the mama bear eating her cub in order to survive. If the mother bear dies, then the cub will die. If the cub dies so the mother bear lives, then the mama bear can still reproduce.
ESocialBookworm
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5/14/2015 7:00:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 4:58:11 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:

Are there wolves in the desert? o.O
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mrsatan
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5/14/2015 7:01:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 4:58:11 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
So in class, my teacher asked us if we would kill our own baby to save our skin, and people said yes.

The situation given to us was that we were all lost on a desert in a group of five, along with our own baby son/daughter. The baby starts crying out loud and this attracts the attention of hungry wolves (not the actual example). My teacher gave us two choices:

1. Kill the baby so the wolves don't know where we are and we can let the group survive.
2. Don't kill the baby, and let the whole group die.

There are no exceptions to this (unrealistic). In the class, about 80% chose to kill the baby.

Arguments people made for killing the baby:
1. Prevent its suffering. Don't let it die getting eaten by the wolves.
2. Kill one baby and four more survive.

I found this shocking. I don't judge them for their decision. But I still find it surprising. I could never kill my own child. Not for logical or rational reasons. But because I could never hold the knife properly to gut my child.

I think that utilitarianism is prevalent in society and people care more about the whole than themselves. Perhaps evolution is the cause of this and we all feel some responsibility for our group. Maybe that's the drive behind so many protests is because people feel the need to protect the nation or protect the group, even at the cost of a few lives.

It's hard to say what I'd do in such a situation. I can tell you what I think the best option would be, but to reach that decision would require rationally contemplating killing my child. I'm not sure I could seriously do that.

If I could, then I would kill my baby. Not to save myself. Not to save the others. I would do it because it's not much of a stretch to imagine a group of wolves batting a baby around like a chew toy after filling their bellies on the adults. I would probably kill myself shortly after, maybe immediately after.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
Raisor
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5/14/2015 8:41:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 5:47:09 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
No reason someone else in the group can't kill the child for you.

Lol best answer
bsh1
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5/14/2015 8:48:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This sounds a lot like a rather famous where it is American settlers being asked to kill the baby to prevent an Indian attack.

The example is meant to illustrate the opposition of utilitarian and deonotological moralities.
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bsh1
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5/14/2015 8:49:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Suffice it to say...I would not kill the child.
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Reeseroni
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5/14/2015 9:17:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If the baby's crying attracts wolves, even if you kill it they may already know where you are. You could even gag your child (its a humane option).
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n7
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5/14/2015 10:22:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You could suffocate the baby then revive him when the wolves are gone. Babies can survive a while without oxygen. Something similar happened in this foreign Sniper movie.
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
n7
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5/14/2015 10:24:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Found the movie. It was called Savior

http://en.wikipedia.org...(film)
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
The-Voice-of-Truth
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5/14/2015 10:27:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 5:50:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Sounds like your teacher watches M.A.S.H. Ask him about it, it may win you some points.



I like that show.
Suh dude

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"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
thett3
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5/14/2015 10:27:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Keep in mind that these people aren't parents. They don't understand the unconditional love of parents.

That being said...I really don't think their choice is that unreasonable. The baby will die either way, and I think moral systems that refuse to recognize context are just silly. What if, instead of a baby, the person holding you back from the wolves was a 100 year old man begging "kill me, save yourselves just don't let the wolves eat me!" Would killing him really be unethical? If your moral system says yes, it sucks.
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n7
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5/14/2015 10:31:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also any reason why you posted this in the main DDO forum and not the philosophy forum?
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
n7
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5/14/2015 10:33:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:00:41 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 5/14/2015 4:58:11 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:

Are there wolves in the desert? o.O

I live in the desert and I hear wolves sometimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.desertusa.com...
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Maikuru
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5/14/2015 10:46:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
In the example given, killing the baby is probably the best option for everyone involved, including the baby. It doesn't really matter whether or not the parent could kill the child directly, as that is a matter of emotionality rather than morality.
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Blade-of-Truth
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5/14/2015 11:18:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 5:50:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Sounds like your teacher watches M.A.S.H. Ask him about it, it may win you some points.



Great show. I'm currently running through it on Netflix and am on season 9, ep 7. I think the saddest part of the show was when Frank Burns left... I won't go into details to avoid spoilers but man, that made me tear up.
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The-Voice-of-Truth
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5/14/2015 11:21:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 11:18:48 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/14/2015 5:50:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Sounds like your teacher watches M.A.S.H. Ask him about it, it may win you some points.



Great show. I'm currently running through it on Netflix and am on season 9, ep 7. I think the saddest part of the show was when Frank Burns left... I won't go into details to avoid spoilers but man, that made me tear up.

I didn't know it was on Netflix. I've been watching the DVDs.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Blade-of-Truth
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5/14/2015 11:27:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 11:21:43 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/14/2015 11:18:48 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/14/2015 5:50:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Sounds like your teacher watches M.A.S.H. Ask him about it, it may win you some points.



Great show. I'm currently running through it on Netflix and am on season 9, ep 7. I think the saddest part of the show was when Frank Burns left... I won't go into details to avoid spoilers but man, that made me tear up.

I didn't know it was on Netflix. I've been watching the DVDs.

Yup, Netflix has all 11 seasons. I'm currently on a break from it because I can only take so much of one show at a time, but yeah... it's a great show imo.
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The-Voice-of-Truth
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5/14/2015 11:29:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 11:27:16 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/14/2015 11:21:43 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/14/2015 11:18:48 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/14/2015 5:50:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Sounds like your teacher watches M.A.S.H. Ask him about it, it may win you some points.



Great show. I'm currently running through it on Netflix and am on season 9, ep 7. I think the saddest part of the show was when Frank Burns left... I won't go into details to avoid spoilers but man, that made me tear up.

I didn't know it was on Netflix. I've been watching the DVDs.

Yup, Netflix has all 11 seasons. I'm currently on a break from it because I can only take so much of one show at a time, but yeah... it's a great show imo.

Yeah. I like it becusue of Hawkeye. I am a lot like him IRL.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Maikuru
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5/14/2015 12:02:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 11:18:48 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/14/2015 5:50:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Sounds like your teacher watches M.A.S.H. Ask him about it, it may win you some points.



Great show. I'm currently running through it on Netflix and am on season 9, ep 7. I think the saddest part of the show was when Frank Burns left... I won't go into details to avoid spoilers but man, that made me tear up.

Yeah, it's a great show. So many iconic moments, and such great acting, directing, and memorable characters. It stands the test of time.
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Geogeer
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5/14/2015 2:10:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 4:58:11 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
So in class, my teacher asked us if we would kill our own baby to save our skin, and people said yes.

The situation given to us was that we were all lost on a desert in a group of five, along with our own baby son/daughter. The baby starts crying out loud and this attracts the attention of hungry wolves (not the actual example). My teacher gave us two choices:

1. Kill the baby so the wolves don't know where we are and we can let the group survive.
2. Don't kill the baby, and let the whole group die.

There are no exceptions to this (unrealistic). In the class, about 80% chose to kill the baby.

Arguments people made for killing the baby:
1. Prevent its suffering. Don't let it die getting eaten by the wolves.
2. Kill one baby and four more survive.

I found this shocking. I don't judge them for their decision. But I still find it surprising. I could never kill my own child. Not for logical or rational reasons. But because I could never hold the knife properly to gut my child.

I think that utilitarianism is prevalent in society and people care more about the whole than themselves. Perhaps evolution is the cause of this and we all feel some responsibility for our group. Maybe that's the drive behind so many protests is because people feel the need to protect the nation or protect the group, even at the cost of a few lives.

Ah modern morality where the ends justify the means...
Vox_Veritas
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5/14/2015 2:21:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 10:27:53 AM, thett3 wrote:
Keep in mind that these people aren't parents. They don't understand the unconditional love of parents.

That being said...I really don't think their choice is that unreasonable. The baby will die either way, and I think moral systems that refuse to recognize context are just silly. What if, instead of a baby, the person holding you back from the wolves was a 100 year old man begging "kill me, save yourselves just don't let the wolves eat me!" Would killing him really be unethical? If your moral system says yes, it sucks.

Just have somebody carry the 100 year old man on their back. Problem solved.
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Khaos_Mage
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5/14/2015 2:23:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 4:58:11 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
So in class, my teacher asked us if we would kill our own baby to save our skin, and people said yes.

The situation given to us was that we were all lost on a desert in a group of five, along with our own baby son/daughter. The baby starts crying out loud and this attracts the attention of hungry wolves (not the actual example). My teacher gave us two choices:

1. Kill the baby so the wolves don't know where we are and we can let the group survive.
2. Don't kill the baby, and let the whole group die.

There are no exceptions to this (unrealistic). In the class, about 80% chose to kill the baby.

Arguments people made for killing the baby:
1. Prevent its suffering. Don't let it die getting eaten by the wolves.
2. Kill one baby and four more survive.

I found this shocking. I don't judge them for their decision. But I still find it surprising. I could never kill my own child. Not for logical or rational reasons. But because I could never hold the knife properly to gut my child.

I think that utilitarianism is prevalent in society and people care more about the whole than themselves. Perhaps evolution is the cause of this and we all feel some responsibility for our group. Maybe that's the drive behind so many protests is because people feel the need to protect the nation or protect the group, even at the cost of a few lives.

Why did no one suggest the group leaves the child AND parent, and the group goes on their own?
Are you suggesting that all should die because of one?

As far as so many saying yes, that may be more to the fact they don't have a child, and more to the idea that they don't want to die BECAUSE of someone else's child.
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thett3
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5/14/2015 3:08:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 2:21:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 5/14/2015 10:27:53 AM, thett3 wrote:
Keep in mind that these people aren't parents. They don't understand the unconditional love of parents.

That being said...I really don't think their choice is that unreasonable. The baby will die either way, and I think moral systems that refuse to recognize context are just silly. What if, instead of a baby, the person holding you back from the wolves was a 100 year old man begging "kill me, save yourselves just don't let the wolves eat me!" Would killing him really be unethical? If your moral system says yes, it sucks.

Just have somebody carry the 100 year old man on their back. Problem solved.

The point of these kinds of questions is the choice part. The idea is that there is no easy way out, either one of you dies painlessly at the hand of another or you all die painfully at the hand of someone else. That's the point. This "I would just silence the baby" nonsense completely misses it
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"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Bullish
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5/14/2015 5:26:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The version I've heard is a group of Jews in a hidden cellar with Nazis searching above. You must suffocate the baby so it does not cry and attract the Nazis, or let it cry and allow the Nazis to find you.

My reaction is the opposite of yours, I find it shocking that people will not kill the baby.
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Bullish
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5/14/2015 5:29:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 3:08:41 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 5/14/2015 2:21:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 5/14/2015 10:27:53 AM, thett3 wrote:
Keep in mind that these people aren't parents. They don't understand the unconditional love of parents.

That being said...I really don't think their choice is that unreasonable. The baby will die either way, and I think moral systems that refuse to recognize context are just silly. What if, instead of a baby, the person holding you back from the wolves was a 100 year old man begging "kill me, save yourselves just don't let the wolves eat me!" Would killing him really be unethical? If your moral system says yes, it sucks.

Just have somebody carry the 100 year old man on their back. Problem solved.

The point of these kinds of questions is the choice part. The idea is that there is no easy way out, either one of you dies painlessly at the hand of another or you all die painfully at the hand of someone else. That's the point. This "I would just silence the baby" nonsense completely misses it

Exactly. I get annoyed when people try to find a third way out for a theoretical problem with specific constraints.
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