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Reasoning Must Debate Nao

Reasoning
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8/17/2010 1:12:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Here are a few topics I would like to debate on. Preferably, I'd like to debate a libertarian/Objectivist/progressive.

Here are a few ideas. Feel free to suggest others:

Capitalism - I'm CON
Freed Markets - I'm PRO
Intellectual Property - I'm CON
Land Reform - I'm PRO
Libertarianism is a form of Socialism - I'm PRO
Stateless Society - I'm PRO
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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8/17/2010 1:14:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What exactly do you mean by "libertarianism is a form of socialism?"
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
LaissezFaire
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8/17/2010 1:17:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Also, how are you CON for capitalism and PRO for free markets?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Reasoning
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8/17/2010 1:17:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:14:06 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
What exactly do you mean by "libertarianism is a form of socialism?"

That libertarians should see themselves as comrades with the socialist movement as a whole against their common enemy, the interests of Capital and the ruling class.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:17:20 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Also, how are you CON for capitalism and PRO for free markets?

Capitalism was born of violence and intervention and without the State it would soon crumble.

"[T]hese new freedmen became sellers of themselves only after they had been robbed of all their own means of production, and of all the guarantees of existence afforded by the old feudal arrangements. And the history of this, their expropriation, is written in the annals of mankind in letters of blood and fire." - Karl Marx[1]

1 http://www.marxists.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
LaissezFaire
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8/17/2010 1:22:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Just to clarify, which ideology are you? Your posts in this thread seem left-anarchist, but you have Murray Rothbard as your profile picture.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
InsertNameHere
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8/17/2010 1:24:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:22:09 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Just to clarify, which ideology are you? Your posts in this thread seem left-anarchist, but you have Murray Rothbard as your profile picture.

I think he's a libertarian, and to use his description, an anti-capitalist free market libertarian.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/17/2010 1:28:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:17:20 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Also, how are you CON for capitalism and PRO for free markets?

Capitalism was born of violence

Says the man whose writings fueled the rise of the two greatest murderers in all history. ^_^
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/17/2010 1:30:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:24:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:22:09 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Just to clarify, which ideology are you? Your posts in this thread seem left-anarchist, but you have Murray Rothbard as your profile picture.

I think he's a libertarian, and to use his description, an anti-capitalist free market libertarian.

He's not Libertarian.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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8/17/2010 1:31:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Out of curiousity, Reasoning, do you agree with or support Panarchism?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/17/2010 1:32:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:28:04 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:17:20 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Also, how are you CON for capitalism and PRO for free markets?

Capitalism was born of violence

Says the man whose writings fueled the rise of the two greatest murderers in all history. ^_^

Lol.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/17/2010 8:10:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Post definitions of libertarianism and socialism and I'll take that topic.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Reasoning
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8/17/2010 8:13:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 8:10:14 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Post definitions of libertarianism and socialism and I'll take that topic.

How about we do something like:

libertarians should identify as socialists rather than capitalists
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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8/17/2010 8:38:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 8:13:31 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:10:14 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Post definitions of libertarianism and socialism and I'll take that topic.

How about we do something like:

libertarians should identify as socialists rather than capitalists

Except socialism's main focus is spreading wealth through the state. The main focus of capitalism is economic freedom.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Reasoning
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8/17/2010 8:51:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 8:38:02 PM, mongoose wrote:
Except socialism's main focus is spreading wealth through the state. The main focus of capitalism is economic freedom.

lol.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
InsertNameHere
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8/17/2010 8:54:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 8:38:02 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:13:31 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:10:14 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Post definitions of libertarianism and socialism and I'll take that topic.

How about we do something like:

libertarians should identify as socialists rather than capitalists

Except socialism's main focus is spreading wealth through the state. The main focus of capitalism is economic freedom.

That's only one definition of socialism. Socialism isn't always statist.
Anarcho
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8/17/2010 8:56:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:14:06 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
What exactly do you mean by "libertarianism is a form of socialism?"

Look up Noam Chomsky.
InsertNameHere wrote: "If we evolved from apes then why are apes still around?

This is semi-serious btw. It's something that seems strange to me. You'd think that entire species would cease to exist if other ones evolved from them."

Anarcho wrote: *facepalm*
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/17/2010 9:03:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 8:13:31 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:10:14 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Post definitions of libertarianism and socialism and I'll take that topic.

How about we do something like:

libertarians should identify as socialists rather than capitalists

I still want definitions.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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8/17/2010 9:36:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"[T]hese new freedmen became sellers of themselves only after they had been robbed of all their own means of production, and of all the guarantees of existence afforded by the old feudal arrangements. And the history of this, their expropriation, is written in the annals of mankind in letters of blood and fire." - Karl Marx[1]

1 http://www.marxists.org...

Rothbardian quoting Karl Marx = lolz.
Reasoning
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8/17/2010 9:43:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 9:36:58 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"[T]hese new freedmen became sellers of themselves only after they had been robbed of all their own means of production, and of all the guarantees of existence afforded by the old feudal arrangements. And the history of this, their expropriation, is written in the annals of mankind in letters of blood and fire." - Karl Marx[1]

1 http://www.marxists.org...

Rothbardian quoting Karl Marx = lolz.

Apparently I'm not supposed to quote Marx now?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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8/17/2010 10:03:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 9:43:28 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:36:58 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"[T]hese new freedmen became sellers of themselves only after they had been robbed of all their own means of production, and of all the guarantees of existence afforded by the old feudal arrangements. And the history of this, their expropriation, is written in the annals of mankind in letters of blood and fire." - Karl Marx[1]

1 http://www.marxists.org...

Rothbardian quoting Karl Marx = lolz.

Apparently I'm not supposed to quote Marx now?

WWRS?
Reasoning
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8/17/2010 11:50:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 10:03:07 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:43:28 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:36:58 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"[T]hese new freedmen became sellers of themselves only after they had been robbed of all their own means of production, and of all the guarantees of existence afforded by the old feudal arrangements. And the history of this, their expropriation, is written in the annals of mankind in letters of blood and fire." - Karl Marx[1]

1 http://www.marxists.org...

Rothbardian quoting Karl Marx = lolz.

Apparently I'm not supposed to quote Marx now?

WWRS?

I don't see why he wouldn't approve.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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8/17/2010 11:53:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:50:33 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 10:03:07 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:43:28 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:36:58 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"[T]hese new freedmen became sellers of themselves only after they had been robbed of all their own means of production, and of all the guarantees of existence afforded by the old feudal arrangements. And the history of this, their expropriation, is written in the annals of mankind in letters of blood and fire." - Karl Marx[1]

1 http://www.marxists.org...

Rothbardian quoting Karl Marx = lolz.

Apparently I'm not supposed to quote Marx now?

WWRS?

I don't see why he wouldn't approve.

Rothbard would approve of Marx?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/18/2010 8:23:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 9:03:07 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:13:31 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:10:14 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Post definitions of libertarianism and socialism and I'll take that topic.

How about we do something like:

libertarians should identify as socialists rather than capitalists

I still want definitions.

Ping.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
McBell
Posts: 2
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8/18/2010 5:38:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 1:17:36 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:14:06 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
What exactly do you mean by "libertarianism is a form of socialism?"

That libertarians should see themselves as comrades with the socialist movement as a whole against their common enemy, the interests of Capital and the ruling class.
That would be dependent on the socialist. The word itself has become so meaningless as for it to be almost impossible to determine what someone means when they call themselves "socialist". Some socialists are valuable allies, but others are essentially supporters of the ruling class. Same goes for capitalists and capitalism.

At 8/17/2010 11:53:18 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:50:33 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 10:03:07 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:43:28 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:36:58 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/17/2010 1:20:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"[T]hese new freedmen became sellers of themselves only after they had been robbed of all their own means of production, and of all the guarantees of existence afforded by the old feudal arrangements. And the history of this, their expropriation, is written in the annals of mankind in letters of blood and fire." - Karl Marx[1]

1 http://www.marxists.org...

Rothbardian quoting Karl Marx = lolz.

Apparently I'm not supposed to quote Marx now?

WWRS?

I don't see why he wouldn't approve.
Rothbard would approve of Marx?
Not Marx himself, no, but certain things that Marx said, yes. The person making a statement has no bearing on the truth of the statement itself.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/18/2010 7:48:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:23:20 AM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:03:07 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:13:31 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:10:14 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Post definitions of libertarianism and socialism and I'll take that topic.

How about we do something like:

libertarians should identify as socialists rather than capitalists

I still want definitions.

Ping.

Ping.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/18/2010 9:00:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Capitalists-- people who get money by slaughtering the infants of the working class at state-sponsored temples.

Socialists-- People who are made of magic fairy dust that makes them love everybody and make everybody prosper.

libertarianism-- Those who renounce the initiation of force and fraud.

Those are Reasoning's operational definitions. :P

The third one I agree with.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/18/2010 9:02:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 9:00:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Capitalists-- people who get money by slaughtering the infants of the working class at state-sponsored temples.

Socialists-- People who are made of magic fairy dust that makes them love everybody and make everybody prosper.

libertarianism-- Those who renounce the initiation of force and fraud.

Those are Reasoning's operational definitions. :P

The third one I agree with.

Lol. xD
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/19/2010 11:45:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 7:48:37 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:23:20 AM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:03:07 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:13:31 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:10:14 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Post definitions of libertarianism and socialism and I'll take that topic.

How about we do something like:

libertarians should identify as socialists rather than capitalists

I still want definitions.

Ping.

Ping.

Ping.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/19/2010 12:39:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 10:03:07 PM, Nags wrote:

WWRS?

"The capitalist system of today is, indeed, not properly anarchistic because it is so often in collusion with the state...what Marx and later writers have done is to lump together two extremely different and even contradictory concepts and actions under the same portmanteau term. These two contradictory concepts are what I would call 'free-market capitalism' on the one hand, and 'state capitalism' on the other."

- Murray N. Rothbard