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Toxic People

Mirza
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7/22/2015 8:19:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
We've discussed this issue before, and I'd like to bring it up briefly. In my view, a toxic member is someone (not exclusively, however) who deliberately distorts a discussion in order to create an inflamed atmosphere.

I propose we have a simple warning system, as I know other sites do, where you receive an infraction for doing this in an obvious manner, and when you amass a certain amount, you receive a ban. I, and I am sure many others as well, can NOT tolerate this type of behaviour.

Input is welcome.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/22/2015 8:41:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:19:43 PM, Mirza wrote:
We've discussed this issue before, and I'd like to bring it up briefly. In my view, a toxic member is someone (not exclusively, however) who deliberately distorts a discussion in order to create an inflamed atmosphere.

I propose we have a simple warning system, as I know other sites do, where you receive an infraction for doing this in an obvious manner, and when you amass a certain amount, you receive a ban. I, and I am sure many others as well, can NOT tolerate this type of behaviour.

Input is welcome.

You mean like when people say things like the white race needs to die out
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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7/22/2015 8:42:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Four issues/comments:

1. Toxicity is inherently subjective. Someone I may find highly toxic, others may disagree is toxic at all. Even your definition of toxicity is not really clear, which just speaks to the ambiguity of issues like this.

2. What kind of "toxic" remarks are not already covered by the TOS? You refer to "obvious" toxicity--which, to me, implies things like swearing, harassment, etc. All of these things are already covered by the existing rules.

3. While toxicity occurs on DDO, I don't see it as *that* big a problem on the site (barring the religion forum). Is there enough toxicity to justify this kind of a system, which will require more work from the mods and may bring its own controversies?

4. This kind of thing holds the potential to easily evolve into witch-hunts. Because of the amorphous nature of the notion of "toxicity" it becomes easy to the label to be misapplied or for the application thereof to be abused.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Mirza
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7/22/2015 8:45:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:42:42 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Four issues/comments:

1. Toxicity is inherently subjective. Someone I may find highly toxic, others may disagree is toxic at all. Even your definition of toxicity is not really clear, which just speaks to the ambiguity of issues like this.

2. What kind of "toxic" remarks are not already covered by the TOS? You refer to "obvious" toxicity--which, to me, implies things like swearing, harassment, etc. All of these things are already covered by the existing rules.

3. While toxicity occurs on DDO, I don't see it as *that* big a problem on the site (barring the religion forum). Is there enough toxicity to justify this kind of a system, which will require more work from the mods and may bring its own controversies?

4. This kind of thing holds the potential to easily evolve into witch-hunts. Because of the amorphous nature of the notion of "toxicity" it becomes easy to the label to be misapplied or for the application thereof to be abused.
This was not intended to discuss what constitutes toxicity, although I made my view clear on this.

I proposed the simple infraction system, which would be exclusively based on the ToS. When someone does something of purely vicious nature by the standard of the rules, he should receive an infraction. Repetition of such behaviour amasses "points" and leads to a ban.

This is nothing new. I have just come to think how exceptionally lenient moderation is on this site, and how malicious members are hardly dealt with.
Mirza
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7/22/2015 8:46:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:41:48 PM, sadolite wrote:
You mean like when people say things like the white race needs to die out
Yes, that would warrant an infraction.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/22/2015 8:46:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:46:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:41:48 PM, sadolite wrote:
You mean like when people say things like the white race needs to die out
Yes, that would warrant an infraction.

Put your name on the list for one
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2015 8:47:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:46:40 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:46:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:41:48 PM, sadolite wrote:
You mean like when people say things like the white race needs to die out
Yes, that would warrant an infraction.

Put your name on the list for one
Huh?
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/22/2015 8:48:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:47:14 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:46:40 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:46:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:41:48 PM, sadolite wrote:
You mean like when people say things like the white race needs to die out
Yes, that would warrant an infraction.

Put your name on the list for one
Huh?

I'll see if I can find it. I'll get back to you.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2015 8:54:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:48:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
I'll see if I can find it. I'll get back to you.
Hurry up. I'm about to get pwned hard, I sense.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/22/2015 8:56:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:54:36 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:48:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
I'll see if I can find it. I'll get back to you.
Hurry up. I'm about to get pwned hard, I sense.

maybe you can help, It's in your thanks America thread. I can't find it in search
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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7/22/2015 9:02:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:45:44 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:42:42 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Four issues/comments:

1. Toxicity is inherently subjective. Someone I may find highly toxic, others may disagree is toxic at all. Even your definition of toxicity is not really clear, which just speaks to the ambiguity of issues like this.

2. What kind of "toxic" remarks are not already covered by the TOS? You refer to "obvious" toxicity--which, to me, implies things like swearing, harassment, etc. All of these things are already covered by the existing rules.

3. While toxicity occurs on DDO, I don't see it as *that* big a problem on the site (barring the religion forum). Is there enough toxicity to justify this kind of a system, which will require more work from the mods and may bring its own controversies?

4. This kind of thing holds the potential to easily evolve into witch-hunts. Because of the amorphous nature of the notion of "toxicity" it becomes easy to the label to be misapplied or for the application thereof to be abused.
This was not intended to discuss what constitutes toxicity, although I made my view clear on this.

Is that not a necessary prerequisite to further discussion? How can we appropriately assess the impact of a toxicity infraction system, if we're not quite sure what toxicity is, in terms of this site.

I proposed the simple infraction system, which would be exclusively based on the ToS. When someone does something of purely vicious nature by the standard of the rules, he should receive an infraction. Repetition of such behaviour amasses "points" and leads to a ban.

In an informal way, this already does happen. Moderators do take more severe action against repeat offenders. Penalties escalate, and so I don't really see the need to formalize this when it's already happening in the status quo.

This is nothing new. I have just come to think how exceptionally lenient moderation is on this site, and how malicious members are hardly dealt with.

I would disagree. They may not be dealt with as swiftly as some would prefer, but they are dealt with.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/22/2015 9:03:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Huh can't find it any where. Must have been deleted by the mods. I remember the form post title like yesterday . It was "Thanks America" and my first response was "Your welcome" then you went on about how the white race in this country should be deluded out of existence by immigrants.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2015 9:04:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:56:11 PM, sadolite wrote:
maybe you can help, It's in your thanks America thread. I can't find it in search
I'll help you out, because I am sensing I'm talking to an exceptionally odd creature.

Thread: http://www.debate.org...

I said: "Yes, it's a shame. For all I care, you should take as many immigrants as possible, mix with one another, and have no white people anymore, so you stop shaming the name of our race."

And: "Which part of my comment suggests I am a race bigot? I like my race, but I also like other races. That I want the trashiest white people in history, the Americans, to become less significant, is hardly race bigotry."

In which part of this do I want the "white race to die out"? I specifically said I wanted a portion of it to be less significant; e.g., through admixture. OBVIOUSLY, dumbass, I am white and wouldn't want my race to die out. Sure I may have a bias against a portion of it, but that's not against the entirety of my race, is it? :)

FYI you wouldn't be banned; you serve well as a catalyst of endorphin release.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2015 9:07:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:02:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is that not a necessary prerequisite to further discussion? How can we appropriately assess the impact of a toxicity infraction system, if we're not quite sure what toxicity is, in terms of this site.
If anything, it's an unnecessary addition to what is already evidently there: the ToS system. "Toxicity" is just violating it in a repeat fashion. For all I care, we should stick to the ToS. It is sufficient.

In an informal way, this already does happen. Moderators do take more severe action against repeat offenders. Penalties escalate, and so I don't really see the need to formalize this when it's already happening in the status quo.
I honesty rarely see it happen to members in the forums. Maybe trolls or other hardly prominent people are gotten rid of, but there are seriously malicious people who hang around. Even my behaviour is obviously far over the line, and I'm not being warned, at all.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/22/2015 9:09:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:04:51 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:56:11 PM, sadolite wrote:
maybe you can help, It's in your thanks America thread. I can't find it in search
I'll help you out, because I am sensing I'm talking to an exceptionally odd creature.

Thread: http://www.debate.org...

I said: "Yes, it's a shame. For all I care, you should take as many immigrants as possible, mix with one another, and have no white people anymore, so you stop shaming the name of our race."

And: "Which part of my comment suggests I am a race bigot? I like my race, but I also like other races. That I want the trashiest white people in history, the Americans, to become less significant, is hardly race bigotry."

In which part of this do I want the "white race to die out"? I specifically said I wanted a portion of it to be less significant; e.g., through admixture. OBVIOUSLY, dumbass, I am white and wouldn't want my race to die out. Sure I may have a bias against a portion of it, but that's not against the entirety of my race, is it? :)

FYI you wouldn't be banned; you serve well as a catalyst of endorphin release.

Ya that's it. 1 demerit for you 3 more and your banned. I'll PM airmax so we are all in agreement.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2015 9:11:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:09:11 PM, sadolite wrote:
Ya that's it. 1 demerit for you 3 more and your banned. I'll PM airmax so we are all in agreement.
I understand that with a white eugenics programme, you wouldn't be allowed to have children, but I didn't mean to offend you personally though. :)
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/22/2015 9:13:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:11:00 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 9:09:11 PM, sadolite wrote:
Ya that's it. 1 demerit for you 3 more and your banned. I'll PM airmax so we are all in agreement.
I understand that with a white eugenics programme, you wouldn't be allowed to have children, but I didn't mean to offend you personally though. :)

It isn't possible to offend me, I just dish it back. I've been doing long before the Donald made it cool
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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7/22/2015 9:13:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:07:39 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 9:02:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is that not a necessary prerequisite to further discussion? How can we appropriately assess the impact of a toxicity infraction system, if we're not quite sure what toxicity is, in terms of this site.
If anything, it's an unnecessary addition to what is already evidently there: the ToS system. "Toxicity" is just violating it in a repeat fashion. For all I care, we should stick to the ToS. It is sufficient.

It's not sufficient--it's redundant. What you're describing already happens in an informal way, and I don't really thing formalizing it would do much of anything.

In an informal way, this already does happen. Moderators do take more severe action against repeat offenders. Penalties escalate, and so I don't really see the need to formalize this when it's already happening in the status quo.
I honesty rarely see it happen to members in the forums. Maybe trolls or other hardly prominent people are gotten rid of, but there are seriously malicious people who hang around. Even my behaviour is obviously far over the line, and I'm not being warned, at all.

Your trolling Americans is not against the TOS.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2015 9:19:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:13:28 PM, bsh1 wrote:
It's not sufficient--it's redundant.
You think the ToS should be scaled down?

What you're describing already happens in an informal way, and I don't really thing formalizing it would do much of anything.
If it doesn't do enough, it doesn't do enough. Simple as. When members are continually violating the ToS where they should obviously have been stopped at one point, there is an improvement to be made. Even if it should happen informally, it should be more effective.

Your trolling Americans is not against the TOS.
That's not what I said (nor are my many honest points trolling, although the obviously provocative parts can fall under that as far as I care). I've discussed with several (highly annoying) people, and had flame wars with them that clearly violate the ToS - and nothing has yet happened - neither to me nor them. This is a lenient type of moderation in this area, and could be improved with ease.
Mirza
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7/22/2015 9:20:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:13:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
It isn't possible to offend me, I just dish it back. I've been doing long before the Donald made it cool
I must be quite resilient, since your truly powerful attacks have not been that effective. What say you?
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/23/2015 4:17:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:20:24 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 9:13:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
It isn't possible to offend me, I just dish it back. I've been doing long before the Donald made it cool
I must be quite resilient, since your truly powerful attacks have not been that effective. What say you?

What attacks? I just repeat what you say.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/23/2015 8:20:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 4:17:06 PM, sadolite wrote:
What attacks? I just repeat what you say.
Americans are dumb, vile people. Repeat after me. :D

In fact, in the Opinion section someone has a hard time telling where I am from in spite of me arguing for Europe like a fanatic, and my profile saying which country I am from, and what race I am... So European fanatic-Bosnian-white... Hmm, not good enough to establish a conclusion.

Now, now - not generalizing your stupidity from one experience, but it's really a good example of how Americans are so ignorant; I have a hard time even believing this.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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7/23/2015 11:32:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:19:24 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2015 9:13:28 PM, bsh1 wrote:
It's not sufficient--it's redundant.
You think the ToS should be scaled down?

What you're describing already happens in an informal way, and I don't really thing formalizing it would do much of anything.
If it doesn't do enough, it doesn't do enough. Simple as. When members are continually violating the ToS where they should obviously have been stopped at one point, there is an improvement to be made. Even if it should happen informally, it should be more effective.

Your trolling Americans is not against the TOS.
That's not what I said (nor are my many honest points trolling, although the obviously provocative parts can fall under that as far as I care). I've discussed with several (highly annoying) people, and had flame wars with them that clearly violate the ToS - and nothing has yet happened - neither to me nor them. This is a lenient type of moderation in this area, and could be improved with ease.

Well, this is assuming moderation is aware of these flame wars.
I have never reported any, and I assume neither have you, so how would they know unless it was reported, and I could be wrong, but I think people rarely, and only in the most egregious cases, report a post/user that does not involve the reporter.
My work here is, finally, done.
sadolite
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7/24/2015 4:26:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 8:20:20 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/23/2015 4:17:06 PM, sadolite wrote:
What attacks? I just repeat what you say.
Americans are dumb, vile people. Repeat after me. :D

In fact, in the Opinion section someone has a hard time telling where I am from in spite of me arguing for Europe like a fanatic, and my profile saying which country I am from, and what race I am... So European fanatic-Bosnian-white... Hmm, not good enough to establish a conclusion.

Now, now - not generalizing your stupidity from one experience, but it's really a good example of how Americans are so ignorant; I have a hard time even believing this.

Ok I'll repeat what you said "Americans are dumb, vile people." In my estimation this qualifies as a remark a toxic person would make under your guide lines. So now that is 2 demerits. 2 more and you are banned.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
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7/25/2015 3:22:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:19:43 PM, Mirza wrote:
We've discussed this issue before, and I'd like to bring it up briefly. In my view, a toxic member is someone (not exclusively, however) who deliberately distorts a discussion in order to create an inflamed atmosphere.

I propose we have a simple warning system, as I know other sites do, where you receive an infraction for doing this in an obvious manner, and when you amass a certain amount, you receive a ban. I, and I am sure many others as well, can NOT tolerate this type of behaviour.

Input is welcome.

I agree.
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Mirza
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7/25/2015 4:44:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 4:26:09 PM, sadolite wrote:
Ok I'll repeat what you said "Americans are dumb, vile people." In my estimation this qualifies as a remark a toxic person would make under your guide lines. So now that is 2 demerits. 2 more and you are banned.
When rules are enforced properly for everyone, I'll welcome a ban if I breach them.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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7/25/2015 10:54:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 4:44:49 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/24/2015 4:26:09 PM, sadolite wrote:
Ok I'll repeat what you said "Americans are dumb, vile people." In my estimation this qualifies as a remark a toxic person would make under your guide lines. So now that is 2 demerits. 2 more and you are banned.
When rules are enforced properly for everyone, I'll welcome a ban if I breach them.

So two wrongs make a right.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%