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Petition to Remove All Non-Spam Censorship

PericIes
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9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
To sign your name to the petition, simply copy and paste the list of signatures and add your name after the next number. If we get over 40, I will send this to the president of DDO, who will hopefully pass it on to the suits upstairs.

1. Pericles
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
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9/18/2015 5:50:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM, PericIes wrote:
To sign your name to the petition, simply copy and paste the list of signatures and add your name after the next number. If we get over 40, I will send this to the president of DDO, who will hopefully pass it on to the suits upstairs.

1. Pericles

You do realize we can read this without you sending it to us....right? xD
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
PericIes
Posts: 57
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9/18/2015 6:07:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You do realize we can read this without you sending it to us....right? xD

I realize that you can, but I did not realize that you would.
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
whiteflame
Posts: 1,378
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9/18/2015 6:10:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
1. You're never going to get up to 40. It's just not going to happen. You'd be insanely lucky to garner the interest of half that many, let alone the total.

2. Your petition isn't clear. What are you supporting? What, in your mind, constitutes "non-spam censorship"? And, for that matter, how would you seek to remove it? If you're trying to come up with an effective change to policy on this site, then you have to actually advocate something clear and actionable. Merely stating the title of the petition doesn't do that.

3. As Zaradi pointed out, we can all see this. It's not like it's invisible to certain people. Bsh1 has a thread going where he's asking for input. Post your idea there, in detail, and have a discussion with him over it. Who knows? If it's worthwhile, you might actually unite people behind you in the thread. It's going to do a whole lot more than getting 40 random names on a vague petition.
PericIes
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9/18/2015 6:18:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 6:10:35 AM, whiteflame wrote:
1. You're never going to get up to 40. It's just not going to happen. You'd be insanely lucky to garner the interest of half that many, let alone the total.

2. Your petition isn't clear. What are you supporting? What, in your mind, constitutes "non-spam censorship"? And, for that matter, how would you seek to remove it? If you're trying to come up with an effective change to policy on this site, then you have to actually advocate something clear and actionable. Merely stating the title of the petition doesn't do that.

3. As Zaradi pointed out, we can all see this. It's not like it's invisible to certain people. Bsh1 has a thread going where he's asking for input. Post your idea there, in detail, and have a discussion with him over it. Who knows? If it's worthwhile, you might actually unite people behind you in the thread. It's going to do a whole lot more than getting 40 random names on a vague petition.

1- Cool. Then we'll just see how it goes, and after the tide of interest starts to ebb I'll send it in/notify someone.

2- I am advocating the removal of all forms of censorship other than that of spam. Swear words may be typed, any kind of image may be used for poll images and the like, etc. Spam would be the only thing that would be filtered out.
I seek to remove it by way of this petition. I am not in any position of authority, so I don't know in what other way you thought I might be going about this.

3- As I pointed out, I didn't know if authority figures would look or not.
Thanks for the suggestion. I might take this over to bsh1's thread at some point. It's late now, though.
You keep saying that this poll is vague. I really don't think that it is. The goal is to have all censorship, with the exception of spam censorship, removed. The title reflects this adequately, I think. I don't know how I could simplify it any further without the use of construction paper and crayons, but it's possible that my sleep-deprived brain has missed something, so I'm open to suggestions.
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
whiteflame
Posts: 1,378
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9/18/2015 6:27:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 6:18:47 AM, PericIes wrote:
At 9/18/2015 6:10:35 AM, whiteflame wrote:
1. You're never going to get up to 40. It's just not going to happen. You'd be insanely lucky to garner the interest of half that many, let alone the total.

2. Your petition isn't clear. What are you supporting? What, in your mind, constitutes "non-spam censorship"? And, for that matter, how would you seek to remove it? If you're trying to come up with an effective change to policy on this site, then you have to actually advocate something clear and actionable. Merely stating the title of the petition doesn't do that.

3. As Zaradi pointed out, we can all see this. It's not like it's invisible to certain people. Bsh1 has a thread going where he's asking for input. Post your idea there, in detail, and have a discussion with him over it. Who knows? If it's worthwhile, you might actually unite people behind you in the thread. It's going to do a whole lot more than getting 40 random names on a vague petition.


1- Cool. Then we'll just see how it goes, and after the tide of interest starts to ebb I'll send it in/notify someone.

2- I am advocating the removal of all forms of censorship other than that of spam. Swear words may be typed, any kind of image may be used for poll images and the like, etc. Spam would be the only thing that would be filtered out.
I seek to remove it by way of this petition. I am not in any position of authority, so I don't know in what other way you thought I might be going about this.

3- As I pointed out, I didn't know if authority figures would look or not.
Thanks for the suggestion. I might take this over to bsh1's thread at some point. It's late now, though.
You keep saying that this poll is vague. I really don't think that it is. The goal is to have all censorship, with the exception of spam censorship, removed. The title reflects this adequately, I think. I don't know how I could simplify it any further without the use of construction paper and crayons, but it's possible that my sleep-deprived brain has missed something, so I'm open to suggestions.

It's about being as clear as possible. If you're advocating for reduced censorship, then people should know what particular forms of censorship you find problematic so that they can ask you about your reasons. What you view as spam, for example, may differ from other's views, and there might be forms of censorship you hadn't thought about that aren't necessarily a part of your petition. Generally, though, it's better to support a specific change over advocating a nebulous negative. You don't want people misinterpreting you to any degree.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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9/18/2015 6:48:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM, PericIes wrote:
To sign your name to the petition, simply copy and paste the list of signatures and add your name after the next number. If we get over 40, I will send this to the president of DDO, who will hopefully pass it on to the suits upstairs.

1. Pericles

I like your passion and the initiative you are showing in pursuing something you believe in. So while I hate to have to be this guy, I'm going to tell you that this is not going to happen.

Even if I thought you could acquire this arbitrary number of signatures, and that it would convince Bsh to take this movement seriously, and even though I greatly respect Bsh and would take seriously anything he brought to me, and would consider it honestly, I doubt I'm ever going to ever get to the point when I'm going to allow this site to be a content free for all.

There are plenty of censorship free sites you can go to. Those sites are censorship free by design based on an intentional business decision. Similarly, this site is not a content free for all, and that is an intentional decision that I enforce, based on the needs of this site. So as (at least metaphorically) one of those "suits upstairs", I can tell you that this will never happen.

Perhaps there is some room for discussion on the issue of censorship, but you've made this about censorship in terms of absolutes, and there's no wiggle room there.
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AdithyaShark
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9/18/2015 6:51:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Define "censorship." Does that include removing votes? There is also extreme limits of profanity, et cetera being used on the site -- doesn't that have to be removed? The petition is unclear. And I largely agree with Whiteflame; this thread is useless.
1harderthanyouthink
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9/18/2015 6:28:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you don't like the basic rules of the site put in place to keep order, go back to 4chan.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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lannan13
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9/18/2015 6:39:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 6:28:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If you don't like the basic rules of the site put in place to keep order, go back to 4chan.

Or Yik-Yak for that matter.
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bsh1
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9/18/2015 6:55:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM, PericIes wrote:

Feel free to contact me directly about this issue via PM, or to reach out to moderation directly (Airmax1227 would be the POC there). I am certainly willing to discuss it, though, since moderators are the only ones who can remove posts, it may be best to talk to moderation directly.
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TBR
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9/18/2015 6:56:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM, PericIes wrote:
To sign your name to the petition, simply copy and paste the list of signatures and add your name after the next number. If we get over 40, I will send this to the president of DDO, who will hopefully pass it on to the suits upstairs.

1. Pericles

Look, I will add my name to the petition

2. TBR

Now... There have been plenty of discussions on this subject - I have started a number of them. Generally, I think that the majority WANT the filters removed. I also think it is worthwhile to discuss regardless of the unwillingness of anyone in a position to change the policy. It IS however, futile.

Just understand that before getting to worked-up about it.
Tough
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9/18/2015 7:38:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 6:56:24 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM, PericIes wrote:
To sign your name to the petition, simply copy and paste the list of signatures and add your name after the next number. If we get over 40, I will send this to the president of DDO, who will hopefully pass it on to the suits upstairs.
1. Pericles
2. TBR
3. Tough (Only if porn is also uncensored)
Who is more terrifying; the one who is correct and successfully proves the liar wrong or the liar who successfully proves the correct one wrong?
Lee001
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9/18/2015 7:57:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 7:38:03 PM, Tough wrote:
At 9/18/2015 6:56:24 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM, PericIes wrote:
To sign your name to the petition, simply copy and paste the list of signatures and add your name after the next number. If we get over 40, I will send this to the president of DDO, who will hopefully pass it on to the suits upstairs.
1. Pericles
2. TBR
3. Tough (Only if porn is also uncensored)

-_-
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PericIes
Posts: 57
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9/19/2015 4:39:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 6:51:14 AM, AdithyaShark wrote:
Define "censorship." Does that include removing votes? There is also extreme limits of profanity, et cetera being used on the site -- doesn't that have to be removed? The petition is unclear. And I largely agree with Whiteflame; this thread is useless.

"Define 'censorship.'" I would define it as the removal or alteration of the expression of ideas (in speech, literature, art, etc.) in order to conform with what any given person or group allegedly deems acceptable, I.E. sending posts that contain profanity in for moderation.

"Does that include removing votes?" Votes should not be removed for the same reasons that people attempt to keep profanity out. If a vote contains a swear word or a controversial idea that offends people who then want it removed, it should not be removed. If a vote is a troll vote, or a biased vote, or something else along those lines, then I see no problem with its removal. The reason that I make the distinction between the removal of these two types of votes is this: one is a repression of ideas, and another is a repression of that which conflicts with the essence of this site, which is fairly performed and fairly judged debate. The latter form of repression, then, does not conflict with the ideas behind the site, and is therefore acceptable. The former form of repression does conflict with the ideas behind the site, and is therefore unacceptable. I've simply not been able to wrap my mind around the hypocrisy that is a site which is dedicated entirely to discussing ideas, however controversial they may be, seeking to repress ideas by virtue of the fact that they are controversial. It's ludicrous.

"There is also extreme limits of profanity, et cetera being used on the site -- doesn't that have to be removed?" There would be no extreme limits to profanity. It should in no cases be removed. I'm not sure what you mean to allude to by "et cetera," but I'll try to address some possible concerns.
Threats - if they are serious, they should not be removed, but they should be dealt with by suspending/banning the person who made the threat, or, if they case may call for it, contacting law enforcement. I don't see a reason to remove the threats, especially if other, appropriate action is taken to rectify the problem.
Spam - as aforesaid, there should still be spam censorship.
Troll/biased/otherwise unfair votes - as aforesaid, these may be removed because they conflict with the basic ideas behind this site.
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
PericIes
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9/19/2015 4:40:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Perhaps there is some room for discussion on the issue of censorship, but you've made this about censorship in terms of absolutes, and there's no wiggle room there.

Thank you for the advice.
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
PericIes
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9/19/2015 4:42:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 6:28:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If you don't like the basic rules of the site put in place to keep order, go back to 4chan.

If you don't like the opportunity for the change in rules based on the popular opinion of people, go back to North Korea.
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
PericIes
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9/19/2015 4:43:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 6:56:24 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM, PericIes wrote:
To sign your name to the petition, simply copy and paste the list of signatures and add your name after the next number. If we get over 40, I will send this to the president of DDO, who will hopefully pass it on to the suits upstairs.

1. Pericles

Look, I will add my name to the petition

2. TBR

Now... There have been plenty of discussions on this subject - I have started a number of them. Generally, I think that the majority WANT the filters removed. I also think it is worthwhile to discuss regardless of the unwillingness of anyone in a position to change the policy. It IS however, futile.

Just understand that before getting to worked-up about it.

Oh look, someone who isn't criticizing me. :D
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
1harderthanyouthink
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9/19/2015 4:45:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/19/2015 4:42:14 PM, PericIes wrote:
At 9/18/2015 6:28:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If you don't like the basic rules of the site put in place to keep order, go back to 4chan.

If you don't like the opportunity for the change in rules based on the popular opinion of people, go back to North Korea.

Except it's not the popular opinion of the regular users. You're not being censored - things that are against the rules are removed. That's how it's been for a while and unless you can get an actual majority (read: a lot more than 40), then it will stay the same. You might get 5. I'd be surprised if you got more. 5 is not the popular opinion.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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PericIes
Posts: 57
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9/19/2015 4:47:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 6:55:47 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:40:45 AM, PericIes wrote:

Feel free to contact me directly about this issue via PM, or to reach out to moderation directly (Airmax1227 would be the POC there). I am certainly willing to discuss it, though, since moderators are the only ones who can remove posts, it may be best to talk to moderation directly.

I will keep you in mind, but unless this petition gets a substantial amount of signatures, I would agree that the moderators are the ones with the authority here.
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
PericIes
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9/19/2015 4:48:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/19/2015 4:45:38 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/19/2015 4:42:14 PM, PericIes wrote:
At 9/18/2015 6:28:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If you don't like the basic rules of the site put in place to keep order, go back to 4chan.

If you don't like the opportunity for the change in rules based on the popular opinion of people, go back to North Korea.

Except it's not the popular opinion of the regular users. You're not being censored - things that are against the rules are removed. That's how it's been for a while and unless you can get an actual majority (read: a lot more than 40), then it will stay the same. You might get 5. I'd be surprised if you got more. 5 is not the popular opinion.

"Oppotunity for the change in rules based on popular opinion" is not the same as "this is going to be a change in rules based on what I know to be popular opinion." You seem to think I said the latter.
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
PericIes
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9/19/2015 4:48:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
*Opportunity
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
1harderthanyouthink
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9/19/2015 4:49:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/19/2015 4:48:20 PM, PericIes wrote:
At 9/19/2015 4:45:38 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/19/2015 4:42:14 PM, PericIes wrote:
At 9/18/2015 6:28:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If you don't like the basic rules of the site put in place to keep order, go back to 4chan.

If you don't like the opportunity for the change in rules based on the popular opinion of people, go back to North Korea.

Except it's not the popular opinion of the regular users. You're not being censored - things that are against the rules are removed. That's how it's been for a while and unless you can get an actual majority (read: a lot more than 40), then it will stay the same. You might get 5. I'd be surprised if you got more. 5 is not the popular opinion.

"Oppotunity for the change in rules based on popular opinion" is not the same as "this is going to be a change in rules based on what I know to be popular opinion." You seem to think I said the latter.

Even if you said the latter, you're still overzealous.

Too many people are fine with the status quo to change most things. This is one of them. Maybe that should say something.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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PericIes
Posts: 57
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9/19/2015 4:52:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Even if you said the latter, you're still overzealous.

Too many people are fine with the status quo to change most things. This is one of them. Maybe that should say something.

"Even if you said the latter, you're still overzealous." I didn't say the latter. That is the point.

"Too many people are fine with the status quo to change most things. This is one of them." Why should that mean that I shouldn't try to affect change? Other peoples' complacency does not mean that I should also be complacent.

"Maybe that should say something." Maybe it should, but it doesn't.
Strategos Pericles, Grand Archon of Noobkillion, Fifth Viceroy of the Galactic Empire of the FREEDO Bureaucracy
1harderthanyouthink
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9/19/2015 5:05:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/19/2015 4:52:31 PM, PericIes wrote:
Even if you said the latter, you're still overzealous.

Too many people are fine with the status quo to change most things. This is one of them. Maybe that should say something.

"Even if you said the latter, you're still overzealous." I didn't say the latter. That is the point.

I meant the former. My apologies.

"Too many people are fine with the status quo to change most things. This is one of them." Why should that mean that I shouldn't try to affect change? Other peoples' complacency does not mean that I should also be complacent.

Perhaps not, but this isn't complacency because they don't see a problem.

"Maybe that should say something." Maybe it should, but it doesn't.

Then you're insufferably hard-headed on this issue.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/19/2015 5:19:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Except it's not the popular opinion of the regular users. You're not being censored - things that are against the rules are removed. That's how it's been for a while and unless you can get an actual majority (read: a lot more than 40), then it will stay the same. You might get 5. I'd be surprised if you got more. 5 is not the popular opinion.

I disagree. The polls on the subject have shown a consistent majority.
1harderthanyouthink
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9/19/2015 5:25:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/19/2015 5:19:27 PM, TBR wrote:
Except it's not the popular opinion of the regular users. You're not being censored - things that are against the rules are removed. That's how it's been for a while and unless you can get an actual majority (read: a lot more than 40), then it will stay the same. You might get 5. I'd be surprised if you got more. 5 is not the popular opinion.

I disagree. The polls on the subject have shown a consistent majority.

Ever heard of an overzealous and vocal minority?

And we're not talking about filters. That's not an evil instance of censorship.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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TBR
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9/19/2015 5:48:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ever heard of an overzealous and vocal minority?

And we're not talking about filters. That's not an evil instance of censorship.

Well, 1) The poll section has a bigger issue with the filter (as it is completely crazy what it blocks, and it simply trashes posts without a chance to edit), and 2) if you want to ignore the users that answer "yes - we don't like it" that's fine by me, but you are the one that seems to be operating on personal opinion rather than actual data.
RoyLatham
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9/19/2015 5:52:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
No. This is a private site that depends upon attracting people looking for civilized debate. Opening it up to profane screaming matches would scare away 90% of the people here.