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***Official Autumn Tournament: Result***

bsh1
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12/3/2015 12:24:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
INTRO

I want to thank everyone who made this tournament possible, from the contestants, to the voters, to the reads, to Max. I think it was a great tournament, with a great final round, and that it produced some solid debates.

RESULT

In the final round between FT and Thett [http://www.debate.org...], FT has won, per my tie-breaking vote [http://www.debate.org...]. It was a steller debate, and I want to congratulate FT for winning, and both for making it as far as they did.

LINKS

Autumn Tournament Sign-Ups - http://www.debate.org...
Round One - http://www.debate.org...
Round Two - http://www.debate.org...
Round Three - http://www.debate.org...
Round Four - http://www.debate.org...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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ColeTrain
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12/3/2015 2:05:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 12:24:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:

*stellar
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
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Romanii
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12/3/2015 3:27:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The voting frequency in this tournament was disappointingly low. Last year, Mikal's tier tournament's final round got like 10 votes or something (although, admittedly, a few of them weren't that great). I would honestly be okay with lowering voting standards a bit and trading off some vote-quality in order to increase vote-quantity. Cuz as things stand, whiteflame and YYW are literally the only regular voters on high-profile debates -- they're the only ones with the patience to write the super long RFDs which have now pretty much become required due to the community's overly-high standards.
bsh1
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12/3/2015 3:30:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 3:27:42 PM, Romanii wrote:
The voting frequency in this tournament was disappointingly low. Last year, Mikal's tier tournament's final round got like 10 votes or something (although, admittedly, a few of them weren't that great). I would honestly be okay with lowering voting standards a bit and trading off some vote-quality in order to increase vote-quantity. Cuz as things stand, whiteflame and YYW are literally the only regular voters on high-profile debates -- they're the only ones with the patience to write the super long RFDs which have now pretty much become required due to the community's overly-high standards.

I think this might be a better discussion to have in a separate thread. I would rather reserve this thread for congratulating the debaters. But, I would say that super long RFDs aren't necessary, though, on the final debate in particular, whiteflame, YYW, and I wrote long RFDs partly because it was a close debate and partly because they (and I now) have been trying to write the best RFDs we can.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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TUF
Posts: 21,297
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12/3/2015 4:11:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 3:27:42 PM, Romanii wrote:
The voting frequency in this tournament was disappointingly low. Last year, Mikal's tier tournament's final round got like 10 votes or something (although, admittedly, a few of them weren't that great). I would honestly be okay with lowering voting standards a bit and trading off some vote-quality in order to increase vote-quantity. Cuz as things stand, whiteflame and YYW are literally the only regular voters on high-profile debates -- they're the only ones with the patience to write the super long RFDs which have now pretty much become required due to the community's overly-high standards.

Just putting it out there, if there are any high quality debate reads, I'll vote on them if they are brought to my attention. I haven't been contacted much recently with good ones, and I haven't browsed the unvoted debates thread much, but I will usually do a google docs RFD if these debates need votes in the future.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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12/3/2015 4:14:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Great job FourTrouble. You put out some really good debates, I like you're way of thinking and argument style. Much deserving win. Also great job to thett3 completing the tournament and putting up a good competition in the finals!

I'd be scared to debate either of you debate God's.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
whiteflame
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12/3/2015 5:26:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 3:27:42 PM, Romanii wrote:
super long RFDs which have now pretty much become required due to the community's overly-high standards.

I keep stating it where I see this point being made, and I'll state it again here: there is no standard that requires excessively long votes. YYW, bsh1, a few others and myself do produce extensive votes regularly, but the standards don't require such extensive reasoning. There are plenty of examples of short votes, some well below the 1000 character limit for RFDs, that are clearly sufficient without any more reasoning, even on complex debates. For example, while I wouldn't call this a highly detailed debate, Raisor's vote here was less than 1000 characters and more than detailed enough to pass inspection:

http://www.debate.org...

Maybe people are more concerned with the negative response their votes get from the debaters themselves, but while I can't solve for that, this perception that the standards are leading me to remove practically any vote that doesn't go above 1000 characters is not based in reality.
Romanii
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12/3/2015 6:31:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 5:26:59 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 12/3/2015 3:27:42 PM, Romanii wrote:
super long RFDs which have now pretty much become required due to the community's overly-high standards.

I keep stating it where I see this point being made, and I'll state it again here: there is no standard that requires excessively long votes. YYW, bsh1, a few others and myself do produce extensive votes regularly, but the standards don't require such extensive reasoning. There are plenty of examples of short votes, some well below the 1000 character limit for RFDs, that are clearly sufficient without any more reasoning, even on complex debates. For example, while I wouldn't call this a highly detailed debate, Raisor's vote here was less than 1000 characters and more than detailed enough to pass inspection:

http://www.debate.org...

Maybe people are more concerned with the negative response their votes get from the debaters themselves, but while I can't solve for that, this perception that the standards are leading me to remove practically any vote that doesn't go above 1000 characters is not based in reality.

The negative response is more what I'm concerned with. Not deletion.
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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12/3/2015 6:48:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
congrats to FT and thanks to Bsh and Tej for running the tournament

One bit of feedback I have is that I don't think in the future that you guys or anyone else running a tournament should hesitate to vote. I know you want to come off as impartial, but imo to judge the debate isn't being biased. I didn't want to bring this up much during the tournament just because it's unbecoming to argue about rules while it's going on, but I really see no reason to deprive the debate of a vote for that reason. In fact I'd rather than tournament directors were prohibited from *not* voting on a debate than forced to refrain
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
whiteflame
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12/3/2015 7:56:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 6:31:57 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 12/3/2015 5:26:59 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 12/3/2015 3:27:42 PM, Romanii wrote:
super long RFDs which have now pretty much become required due to the community's overly-high standards.

I keep stating it where I see this point being made, and I'll state it again here: there is no standard that requires excessively long votes. YYW, bsh1, a few others and myself do produce extensive votes regularly, but the standards don't require such extensive reasoning. There are plenty of examples of short votes, some well below the 1000 character limit for RFDs, that are clearly sufficient without any more reasoning, even on complex debates. For example, while I wouldn't call this a highly detailed debate, Raisor's vote here was less than 1000 characters and more than detailed enough to pass inspection:

http://www.debate.org...

Maybe people are more concerned with the negative response their votes get from the debaters themselves, but while I can't solve for that, this perception that the standards are leading me to remove practically any vote that doesn't go above 1000 characters is not based in reality.

The negative response is more what I'm concerned with. Not deletion.

Well, I think that's a problem irrespective of length.
Romanii
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12/3/2015 8:31:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 7:56:06 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 12/3/2015 6:31:57 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 12/3/2015 5:26:59 PM, whiteflame wrote:
At 12/3/2015 3:27:42 PM, Romanii wrote:
super long RFDs which have now pretty much become required due to the community's overly-high standards.

I keep stating it where I see this point being made, and I'll state it again here: there is no standard that requires excessively long votes. YYW, bsh1, a few others and myself do produce extensive votes regularly, but the standards don't require such extensive reasoning. There are plenty of examples of short votes, some well below the 1000 character limit for RFDs, that are clearly sufficient without any more reasoning, even on complex debates. For example, while I wouldn't call this a highly detailed debate, Raisor's vote here was less than 1000 characters and more than detailed enough to pass inspection:

http://www.debate.org...

Maybe people are more concerned with the negative response their votes get from the debaters themselves, but while I can't solve for that, this perception that the standards are leading me to remove practically any vote that doesn't go above 1000 characters is not based in reality.

The negative response is more what I'm concerned with. Not deletion.

Well, I think that's a problem irrespective of length.

Ha.... true.... :|

I'm going to test this out. I'll leave 1k character RFDs on a bunch of high-profile debates and see what kind of reaction I get.
tejretics
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12/4/2015 3:36:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Congrats, FT for winning, and thett3 for being a finalist!

It was a great tournament, and the last debate was surprisingly interesting.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
imabench
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12/4/2015 3:37:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There are debates that make it through to the voting period????
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

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thett3
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12/4/2015 6:03:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 6:01:51 AM, Romanii wrote:
I refuse to congratulate the winners of the tournament.

that's because there is only one winner, numbnuts. no wonder you lost
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
imabench
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12/4/2015 6:05:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 6:03:02 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/4/2015 6:01:51 AM, Romanii wrote:
I refuse to congratulate the winners of the tournament.

that's because there is only one winner, numbnuts. no wonder you lost

http://www.kappit.com...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Romanii
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12/4/2015 6:07:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 6:03:02 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/4/2015 6:01:51 AM, Romanii wrote:
I refuse to congratulate the winners of the tournament.

that's because there is only one winner, numbnuts. no wonder you

.... :(
TUF
Posts: 21,297
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12/4/2015 5:29:13 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/3/2015 6:48:24 PM, thett3 wrote:
congrats to FT and thanks to Bsh and Tej for running the tournament

One bit of feedback I have is that I don't think in the future that you guys or anyone else running a tournament should hesitate to vote. I know you want to come off as impartial, but imo to judge the debate isn't being biased. I didn't want to bring this up much during the tournament just because it's unbecoming to argue about rules while it's going on, but I really see no reason to deprive the debate of a vote for that reason. In fact I'd rather than tournament directors were prohibited from *not* voting on a debate than forced to refrain

You should mention this to the prophett. I am in his tourney and he is following the same silly rule.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TheProphett
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12/5/2015 2:22:45 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/4/2015 5:29:13 PM, TUF wrote:
At 12/3/2015 6:48:24 PM, thett3 wrote:
congrats to FT and thanks to Bsh and Tej for running the tournament

One bit of feedback I have is that I don't think in the future that you guys or anyone else running a tournament should hesitate to vote. I know you want to come off as impartial, but imo to judge the debate isn't being biased. I didn't want to bring this up much during the tournament just because it's unbecoming to argue about rules while it's going on, but I really see no reason to deprive the debate of a vote for that reason. In fact I'd rather than tournament directors were prohibited from *not* voting on a debate than forced to refrain

You should mention this to the prophett. I am in his tourney and he is following the same silly rule.

( I won't go back on my word now.
Topics I would like to debate: https://docs.google.com...

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fire_wings
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12/5/2015 11:17:47 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/3/2015 12:24:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

I want to thank everyone who made this tournament possible, from the contestants, to the voters, to the reads, to Max. I think it was a great tournament, with a great final round, and that it produced some solid debates.

RESULT

In the final round between FT and Thett [http://www.debate.org...], FT has won, per my tie-breaking vote [http://www.debate.org...]. It was a steller debate, and I want to congratulate FT for winning, and both for making it as far as they did.

LINKS

Autumn Tournament Sign-Ups - http://www.debate.org...
Round One - http://www.debate.org...
Round Two - http://www.debate.org...
Round Three - http://www.debate.org...
Round Four - http://www.debate.org...

Was this the first tie ever?
#ALLHAILFIRETHEKINGOFTHEMISCFORUM

...it's not a new policy... it's just that DDO was built on an ancient burial ground, and that means the spirits of old rise again to cause us problems sometimes- Airmax1227

Wtf you must have an IQ of 250 if you're 11 and already decent at this- 16k

Go to sleep!!!!- missmozart

So to start off, I never committed suicide- Vaarka
bsh1
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12/5/2015 9:04:00 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/5/2015 11:17:47 AM, fire_wings wrote:
At 12/3/2015 12:24:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

I want to thank everyone who made this tournament possible, from the contestants, to the voters, to the reads, to Max. I think it was a great tournament, with a great final round, and that it produced some solid debates.

RESULT

In the final round between FT and Thett [http://www.debate.org...], FT has won, per my tie-breaking vote [http://www.debate.org...]. It was a steller debate, and I want to congratulate FT for winning, and both for making it as far as they did.

LINKS

Autumn Tournament Sign-Ups - http://www.debate.org...
Round One - http://www.debate.org...
Round Two - http://www.debate.org...
Round Three - http://www.debate.org...
Round Four - http://www.debate.org...

Was this the first tie ever?

Well, the tournament was not a tie. FT won the tournament.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
fire_wings
Posts: 5,545
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12/6/2015 4:49:42 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/5/2015 9:04:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/5/2015 11:17:47 AM, fire_wings wrote:
At 12/3/2015 12:24:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

I want to thank everyone who made this tournament possible, from the contestants, to the voters, to the reads, to Max. I think it was a great tournament, with a great final round, and that it produced some solid debates.

RESULT

In the final round between FT and Thett [http://www.debate.org...], FT has won, per my tie-breaking vote [http://www.debate.org...]. It was a steller debate, and I want to congratulate FT for winning, and both for making it as far as they did.

LINKS

Autumn Tournament Sign-Ups - http://www.debate.org...
Round One - http://www.debate.org...
Round Two - http://www.debate.org...
Round Three - http://www.debate.org...
Round Four - http://www.debate.org...

Was this the first tie ever?

Well, the tournament was not a tie. FT won the tournament.

But that actual debate.
#ALLHAILFIRETHEKINGOFTHEMISCFORUM

...it's not a new policy... it's just that DDO was built on an ancient burial ground, and that means the spirits of old rise again to cause us problems sometimes- Airmax1227

Wtf you must have an IQ of 250 if you're 11 and already decent at this- 16k

Go to sleep!!!!- missmozart

So to start off, I never committed suicide- Vaarka
bsh1
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12/6/2015 4:23:29 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/6/2015 4:49:42 AM, fire_wings wrote:
At 12/5/2015 9:04:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/5/2015 11:17:47 AM, fire_wings wrote:
At 12/3/2015 12:24:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

I want to thank everyone who made this tournament possible, from the contestants, to the voters, to the reads, to Max. I think it was a great tournament, with a great final round, and that it produced some solid debates.

RESULT

In the final round between FT and Thett [http://www.debate.org...], FT has won, per my tie-breaking vote [http://www.debate.org...]. It was a steller debate, and I want to congratulate FT for winning, and both for making it as far as they did.

LINKS

Autumn Tournament Sign-Ups - http://www.debate.org...
Round One - http://www.debate.org...
Round Two - http://www.debate.org...
Round Three - http://www.debate.org...
Round Four - http://www.debate.org...

Was this the first tie ever?

Well, the tournament was not a tie. FT won the tournament.

But that actual debate.

Ties happen...It's not terribly surprising.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Romanii
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12/6/2015 4:47:07 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
This was probably the most notorious tie in DDO history:
http://www.debate.org...

I still think it should get into the HoF cuz it was hilarious.
So should the DDO Truthbox "Second addition" lol
YYW
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12/6/2015 5:25:10 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/3/2015 3:27:42 PM, Romanii wrote:
The voting frequency in this tournament was disappointingly low. Last year, Mikal's tier tournament's final round got like 10 votes or something (although, admittedly, a few of them weren't that great). I would honestly be okay with lowering voting standards a bit and trading off some vote-quality in order to increase vote-quantity.

Many people are (rightfully) reluctant to cast a vote on debates that are over their head. Yet, there are some people who, despite their reputation, consistently judge debates incorrectly, either by misunderstanding the relative strength of arguments presented, or misreading them, or both. Such people are certainly capable of producing coherent RFD's, but few do.

Thett and Bladerunner are reliably good voters, who consistently get the right answer for the right reason. All others tend to get caught up in the business of "chasing their tails" when reading stuff.

Cuz as things stand, whiteflame and YYW are literally the only regular voters on high-profile debates -- they're the only ones with the patience to write the super long RFDs which have now pretty much become required due to the community's overly-high standards.

The sole issue is sufficiency, with regard to the merit of any vote. Some debates take longer to judge than others; whereas some can just be called outright (e.g. when a debater makes a concession that is is in direct conflict with his BOP, thereby losing the debate).

However, not all people read carefully. All people can improve, but most people just don't try. And even those judges who do read carefully, often, just do not understand how to weigh the relative strength of arguments, and simply lack the ability to distinguish between substantively advancing an argument, and just saying something in response to it. (Policy debaters, and debaters from "policy heavy" districts generally tend to be the most notorious offenders, in this regard.)

That said, the major barrier for most people (because virtually all people have the capacity to produce a coherent RFD, they simply fail to do so) is that they're afraid of doing it wrong. This is a reasonable fear, for it is very easy to screw stuff up. Some of the most high profile debaters do it all the time, because they fail to distinguish between objective evaluation of relative persuasive strength (read: how to correctly judge a debate) and subjectively evaluating the **content** of any particular debate (read: how to screw up as a judge).

I'd encourage people to read my RFD's as a guideline for what an RFD ought to be. I'd discourage people from reading the absurdly long, Tolstoy-esque RFD's that some produce which ramble on and on and never arrive at a coherent point, because "winning" for such judges more or less requires hitting a moving target (subjective evaluation) rather than an objective and concrete point of reference (the burden of proof or persuasion).