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I feel like I should say this

Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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12/13/2015 5:37:16 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
I thoroughly have a distaste for bsh in some ways, for no reason other than my own personal malice and past experiences that have carried over into the present.

With that being said, some of this has been taken way to far. He as a president has did a great job (as far as his ability to manage and maintain this site would allow him to go). No president can change this site, it will never happen strictly due to the fact juggle has never, nor ever will have interest in it. That was the one thing the presidency taught me in great abundance.

The entire value of the office literally is to be a figure head, which serves no purpose. With juggle not being willing to work with mods, or the president alike, the value of the presidency has been reduced to virtual nothingness and back to it's previous state as a popularity contest. If anything my election was efficient in showing that, and this election is showing it much the same.

As for BSH, he is a great person and has a kind heart. Judging from my past experiences with him, he takes things very personally and is easily hurt when people have a bad perception of him. There is trolling people, and then there is blatant harassment with the intent to harm. Ironically coming from me, this is virtually weightless because of my past with khaos. The dichotomy between this situation and others is BSH has literally did nothing remotely close to deserve the attacks he has been receiving.

Both Zaradi and Himself have devoted countless hours into making this site work, have done everything in their power to foster a sense of community, and went above and beyond to do everything they can to keep this site as pleasant as possible.
Some people can take trolling, while others take it very personally. Some things, such as the ones being said can impact someone on deep personal levels. Not everyone is me, and just laughs stuff off and can manage to never give fuks. Be cautious as to what you say to others, because you never know the damage it can cause to someone who takes it to heart.

I personally hope the office is abolished, because it's a waste of both time and energy that largely serves no service.

I am however fully confident that if the presidency does continue, we have one of the best presidents and one of the best vps we could ever ask both. Both of this love this site more than they should.
YYW
Posts: 36,345
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12/13/2015 5:45:56 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
Well said, Mikal.

I also think that the members who have gone out of their way to attack bsh1, and who have made efforts to bump ancient threads which reflected other member's perceptions of what took place long ago (especially when those members are pretty irrelevant on the site now, given their total non-participation, and non-contribution) is as hollow as it is juvenile.

While bsh1 has done things, as a president, that I simply do not approve of, there is nothing that he has done to merit, in this instance, the responses I've seen (i.e. outright hostility, to passive aggressive resurrection of ancient threads and ancient posts, etc.) and it's just unacceptable.

I like it when good members like Mikal remind us of what matters. I dislike it when irrelevant members, in a very hollow attempt to become relevant, necropost the irrelevant content from a prior election, to influence this one.

Get a grip. Act like decent people. That's it.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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12/13/2015 5:56:03 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
Specifically, this is what's going on: an inactive member (i.e. one whose inactivity is a net benefit to the site) bumps the thread of another inactive member (i.e. one whose activity was a net benefit to the site) where the former formerly active member's thread's content contains nothing more than some petty complaints about people's actions in the way of getting a title and maintaining a reputation, as opposed to "contributing" or whatever.

The reason bumping that thread was stupid (aside from the obvious reasons) was because bsh1 *has* contributed, and continues to contribute, at a rate which is both vastly greater (more content) and broader (more areas of involvement) than both the inactive members who wrote the thread that was bumped, and the member who bumped the thread, combined, by any reasonable measure.

So, when I say "stupid" I want to be clear that I mean at least all of these following adjectives: hypocritical, ironic, shallow, injudicious, inapropriate, unmerited, unnecessary, lacking in merit, lacking in substance, lacking in relevance, and lacking in general coherence.

There is always this tendency to go back to something that some other member who once mattered, and then quote that person or whatever, and then transpose that into the instant situation... because it gives this pretense of legitimacy... and that's just moronic, especially where there are different facts in play and the circumstances are totally different.

Some members never fail to disappoint me and embarrass themselves, in, like, every single thing they do on this site. But so many others are so much better than that, and they should conduct themselves accordingly.
Tsar of DDO
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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12/13/2015 6:12:36 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
Well said.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Romanii
Posts: 4,858
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12/13/2015 7:04:49 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
I do feel bad for some of the things I've said about bsh1 today, especially given that his intentions were all good -- in particular, I shouldn't have denounced his presidential achievements as bluntly as I did. He's accomplished as much as is humanly possible with the limited "soft power" granted by the position, particularly with regards to forum revival. So kudos to him for that. Even so, I don't think the substance of what I was arguing is wrong -- the "soft power" of the Presidency is pretty minimal, and therefore not much is lost by electing Wylted. It's arguable that the entertainment value of Wylted getting elected outweighs. And he actually does have some interesting ideas which I would like to see him try out.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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12/13/2015 7:24:13 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:04:49 AM, Romanii wrote:
I do feel bad for some of the things I've said about bsh1 today, especially given that his intentions were all good -- in particular, I shouldn't have denounced his presidential achievements as bluntly as I did. He's accomplished as much as is humanly possible with the limited "soft power" granted by the position, particularly with regards to forum revival. So kudos to him for that. Even so, I don't think the substance of what I was arguing is wrong -- the "soft power" of the Presidency is pretty minimal, and therefore not much is lost by electing Wylted. It's arguable that the entertainment value of Wylted getting elected outweighs. And he actually does have some interesting ideas which I would like to see him try out.

It's less to do with who is voting for who, than how people are trolling bsh. The retarded flack he is getting is unnecessary. There is trolling in good taste, and then tasteless trolling that can easily harm someone on a personal level

I even understand how the presidency is not valuable, but my point is simply that he does not deserve the harm that has came to him. He is a genuinely good member of this site, and is one of the best people to hold the office that we have had. His love for this site is almost being ignored and some people actually think all of this trolling sht is real. He does not deserve what he has gotten, and if anything we should thank him for doing his best to make sure the site has functioned so well. If he could do more, he would be the first person to do it
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/13/2015 7:34:56 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
It's all good you step in on his defence; but, remember, there are times where you all act in a vile fashion toward vulnerable, much more exposed and targeted member(s?). Something to think about. :)
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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12/13/2015 7:35:44 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:34:56 AM, Mirza wrote:
It's all good you step in on his defence; but, remember, there are times where you all act in a vile fashion toward vulnerable, much more exposed and targeted member(s?). Something to think about. :)

I notated that in the thread
Romanii
Posts: 4,858
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12/13/2015 7:43:42 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:24:13 AM, Mikal wrote:
At 12/13/2015 7:04:49 AM, Romanii wrote:
I do feel bad for some of the things I've said about bsh1 today, especially given that his intentions were all good -- in particular, I shouldn't have denounced his presidential achievements as bluntly as I did. He's accomplished as much as is humanly possible with the limited "soft power" granted by the position, particularly with regards to forum revival. So kudos to him for that. Even so, I don't think the substance of what I was arguing is wrong -- the "soft power" of the Presidency is pretty minimal, and therefore not much is lost by electing Wylted. It's arguable that the entertainment value of Wylted getting elected outweighs. And he actually does have some interesting ideas which I would like to see him try out.

It's less to do with who is voting for who, than how people are trolling bsh. The retarded flack he is getting is unnecessary. There is trolling in good taste, and then tasteless trolling that can easily harm someone on a personal level

I even understand how the presidency is not valuable, but my point is simply that he does not deserve the harm that has came to him. He is a genuinely good member of this site, and is one of the best people to hold the office that we have had. His love for this site is almost being ignored and some people actually think all of this trolling sht is real. He does not deserve what he has gotten, and if anything we should thank him for doing his best to make sure the site has functioned so well. If he could do more, he would be the first person to do it

I agree with all of that, and feel pretty bad. He didn't deserve the sheer amount and severity of the criticism he received.
KingofEverything
Posts: 590
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12/13/2015 7:43:47 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
Guess I need to step it up. I don't take it well either.
You're sweet. Thank you :) <3 -ESocial

I am sorry Debate.org -KingofEverything

You guys can stop the circlejerk started around the election. It stopped being funny faster than Mirza's anti-American rants. -Jonbonbon

It's like when the kid who makes an ugly sand castle on the beach goes and tries to kick down someone else's sand castle because he couldn't make one as good as that. -YYW
Mirza
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12/13/2015 7:59:46 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:43:42 AM, Romanii wrote:
I agree with all of that, and feel pretty bad. He didn't deserve the sheer amount and severity of the criticism he received.
Do any of you feel bad for your treatment of me?
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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12/13/2015 8:03:15 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:59:46 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/13/2015 7:43:42 AM, Romanii wrote:
I agree with all of that, and feel pretty bad. He didn't deserve the sheer amount and severity of the criticism he received.
Do any of you feel bad for your treatment of me?

Mirza, I think that karma is kind of a thing here. You have the intelligence to be an excellent and valuable contributor to this site. I know that, and during the Bladerunner campaign, I gained a lot of respect for you. Your posts thereafter, however, have slowly chipped away at that respect. If you mock all Americans, can you then express, fairly, indignance when they mock you? Not saying that Romanii has, because I am not familiary with your interactions, but just as a thought experiment. I think you should try to focus on serious contributions, and the friction that is caused by your trolling will vanish.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/13/2015 8:08:02 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 8:03:15 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Mirza, I think that karma is kind of a thing here. You have the intelligence to be an excellent and valuable contributor to this site. I know that, and during the Bladerunner campaign, I gained a lot of respect for you. Your posts thereafter, however, have slowly chipped away at that respect. If you mock all Americans, can you then express, fairly, indignance when they mock you? Not saying that Romanii has, because I am not familiary with your interactions, but just as a thought experiment. I think you should try to focus on serious contributions, and the friction that is caused by your trolling will vanish.
It doesn't justify harassment nor is it the time it has happened. But it's okay. There are more important things to worry about than people talking down to one in hordes on the web. It's just sad when it's somewhere one likes to be.
bsh1
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12/13/2015 8:10:01 AM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 8:08:02 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/13/2015 8:03:15 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Mirza, I think that karma is kind of a thing here. You have the intelligence to be an excellent and valuable contributor to this site. I know that, and during the Bladerunner campaign, I gained a lot of respect for you. Your posts thereafter, however, have slowly chipped away at that respect. If you mock all Americans, can you then express, fairly, indignance when they mock you? Not saying that Romanii has, because I am not familiary with your interactions, but just as a thought experiment. I think you should try to focus on serious contributions, and the friction that is caused by your trolling will vanish.
It doesn't justify harassment nor is it the time it has happened. But it's okay. There are more important things to worry about than people talking down to one in hordes on the web. It's just sad when it's somewhere one likes to be.

I think the site users can sometimes feel harassed by your anti-America posts, but I understand that tit doesn't justify tat. If you've felt harassed, that is unfortunate, and I think we should all try to be more aware of how we make others feel in our posts. I'll certainly endeavor to do that. But, I think it would help your own situation to, perhaps, de-fang some of your posts.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Romanii
Posts: 4,858
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12/13/2015 1:34:34 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:59:46 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/13/2015 7:43:42 AM, Romanii wrote:
I agree with all of that, and feel pretty bad. He didn't deserve the sheer amount and severity of the criticism he received.
Do any of you feel bad for your treatment of me?

Yes. Sorry for not giving you our unconditional support :(
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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12/13/2015 2:54:40 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
Over the past 8 years I have heard this speech a dozen times. DDO will endure.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
imabench
Posts: 21,224
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12/13/2015 3:38:29 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:59:46 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/13/2015 7:43:42 AM, Romanii wrote:
I agree with all of that, and feel pretty bad. He didn't deserve the sheer amount and severity of the criticism he received.

Do any of you feel bad for your treatment of me?

Nope ;)
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Balacafa
Posts: 166
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12/13/2015 3:48:51 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 6:33:15 AM, XLAV wrote:
Thing is, Wylted can do better.

Wylted is planning on going up to Juggle headquarters and complaining in person if elected. He is also gathering members such as TUF, Larz and immomen to help him complain due to their track records.

I personally find this very convincing, which is why I voted for him. If he does do this then I believe that communication with Juggle could be a lot more successful and communication with Juggle is a very important issue at the moment.
lamerde
Posts: 1,416
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12/13/2015 5:25:59 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 5:56:03 AM, YYW wrote:
Specifically, this is what's going on: an inactive member (i.e. one whose inactivity is a net benefit to the site) bumps the thread of another inactive member (i.e. one whose activity was a net benefit to the site) where the former formerly active member's thread's content contains nothing more than some petty complaints about people's actions in the way of getting a title and maintaining a reputation, as opposed to "contributing" or whatever.

The reason bumping that thread was stupid (aside from the obvious reasons) was because bsh1 *has* contributed, and continues to contribute, at a rate which is both vastly greater (more content) and broader (more areas of involvement) than both the inactive members who wrote the thread that was bumped, and the member who bumped the thread, combined, by any reasonable measure.

So, when I say "stupid" I want to be clear that I mean at least all of these following adjectives: hypocritical, ironic, shallow, injudicious, inapropriate, unmerited, unnecessary, lacking in merit, lacking in substance, lacking in relevance, and lacking in general coherence.

There is always this tendency to go back to something that some other member who once mattered, and then quote that person or whatever, and then transpose that into the instant situation... because it gives this pretense of legitimacy... and that's just moronic, especially where there are different facts in play and the circumstances are totally different.

Some members never fail to disappoint me and embarrass themselves, in, like, every single thing they do on this site. But so many others are so much better than that, and they should conduct themselves accordingly.

Reported. You are so passive aggressive it's pathetic. I didn't bump the thread.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
Romanii
Posts: 4,858
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12/13/2015 7:32:10 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
For the record, I've never said anything mean to Mirza lol (unless calling him out for taking the anti-presidential stuff too far counts)
Romanii
Posts: 4,858
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12/13/2015 7:34:19 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 5:56:03 AM, YYW wrote:

Some members never fail to disappoint me and embarrass themselves, in, like, every single thing they do on this site. But so many others are so much better than that, and they should conduct themselves accordingly.

Be more straightforward & specific, pls. To what extent are you referring to me in your posts in this thread?
Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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12/13/2015 7:36:10 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 5:25:59 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/13/2015 5:56:03 AM, YYW wrote:
Specifically, this is what's going on: an inactive member (i.e. one whose inactivity is a net benefit to the site) bumps the thread of another inactive member (i.e. one whose activity was a net benefit to the site) where the former formerly active member's thread's content contains nothing more than some petty complaints about people's actions in the way of getting a title and maintaining a reputation, as opposed to "contributing" or whatever.

The reason bumping that thread was stupid (aside from the obvious reasons) was because bsh1 *has* contributed, and continues to contribute, at a rate which is both vastly greater (more content) and broader (more areas of involvement) than both the inactive members who wrote the thread that was bumped, and the member who bumped the thread, combined, by any reasonable measure.

So, when I say "stupid" I want to be clear that I mean at least all of these following adjectives: hypocritical, ironic, shallow, injudicious, inapropriate, unmerited, unnecessary, lacking in merit, lacking in substance, lacking in relevance, and lacking in general coherence.

There is always this tendency to go back to something that some other member who once mattered, and then quote that person or whatever, and then transpose that into the instant situation... because it gives this pretense of legitimacy... and that's just moronic, especially where there are different facts in play and the circumstances are totally different.

Some members never fail to disappoint me and embarrass themselves, in, like, every single thing they do on this site. But so many others are so much better than that, and they should conduct themselves accordingly.

Reported. You are so passive aggressive it's pathetic. I didn't bump the thread.

There are so many in-jokes and second accounts and old grudges I can't even tell when comments are ironic or earnest anymore.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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12/13/2015 7:37:06 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:36:10 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 12/13/2015 5:25:59 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/13/2015 5:56:03 AM, YYW wrote:
Specifically, this is what's going on: an inactive member (i.e. one whose inactivity is a net benefit to the site) bumps the thread of another inactive member (i.e. one whose activity was a net benefit to the site) where the former formerly active member's thread's content contains nothing more than some petty complaints about people's actions in the way of getting a title and maintaining a reputation, as opposed to "contributing" or whatever.

The reason bumping that thread was stupid (aside from the obvious reasons) was because bsh1 *has* contributed, and continues to contribute, at a rate which is both vastly greater (more content) and broader (more areas of involvement) than both the inactive members who wrote the thread that was bumped, and the member who bumped the thread, combined, by any reasonable measure.

So, when I say "stupid" I want to be clear that I mean at least all of these following adjectives: hypocritical, ironic, shallow, injudicious, inapropriate, unmerited, unnecessary, lacking in merit, lacking in substance, lacking in relevance, and lacking in general coherence.

There is always this tendency to go back to something that some other member who once mattered, and then quote that person or whatever, and then transpose that into the instant situation... because it gives this pretense of legitimacy... and that's just moronic, especially where there are different facts in play and the circumstances are totally different.

Some members never fail to disappoint me and embarrass themselves, in, like, every single thing they do on this site. But so many others are so much better than that, and they should conduct themselves accordingly.

Reported. You are so passive aggressive it's pathetic. I didn't bump the thread.

There are so many in-jokes and second accounts and old grudges I can't even tell when comments are ironic or earnest anymore.

This one's real. Don't fuel a fire.
YYW
Posts: 36,345
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12/13/2015 7:37:52 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:34:19 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 12/13/2015 5:56:03 AM, YYW wrote:

Some members never fail to disappoint me and embarrass themselves, in, like, every single thing they do on this site. But so many others are so much better than that, and they should conduct themselves accordingly.

Be more straightforward & specific, pls. To what extent are you referring to me in your posts in this thread?

In this post, I was talking mainly about Bossy, who does this like every election. He harassed Debatability, and now he's harassing (indirectly) bsh1. Although I think your conduct was also over the line, I don't think that it's appropriate to specifically discuss issues related to moderation (unless conversing specifically with moderation about moderation) in the forums.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,345
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12/13/2015 7:40:28 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
But the fact remains that I just am really unhappy, overall, with the way people have acted here. It's not as bad as the vitriol in Mikal's election, but it's a problem here too, and Bossy bumping all of these ancient threads, was just totally inapropriate, in this context.
Tsar of DDO
Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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12/13/2015 7:44:17 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:37:06 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 12/13/2015 7:36:10 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 12/13/2015 5:25:59 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/13/2015 5:56:03 AM, YYW wrote:
Specifically, this is what's going on: an inactive member (i.e. one whose inactivity is a net benefit to the site) bumps the thread of another inactive member (i.e. one whose activity was a net benefit to the site) where the former formerly active member's thread's content contains nothing more than some petty complaints about people's actions in the way of getting a title and maintaining a reputation, as opposed to "contributing" or whatever.

The reason bumping that thread was stupid (aside from the obvious reasons) was because bsh1 *has* contributed, and continues to contribute, at a rate which is both vastly greater (more content) and broader (more areas of involvement) than both the inactive members who wrote the thread that was bumped, and the member who bumped the thread, combined, by any reasonable measure.

So, when I say "stupid" I want to be clear that I mean at least all of these following adjectives: hypocritical, ironic, shallow, injudicious, inapropriate, unmerited, unnecessary, lacking in merit, lacking in substance, lacking in relevance, and lacking in general coherence.

There is always this tendency to go back to something that some other member who once mattered, and then quote that person or whatever, and then transpose that into the instant situation... because it gives this pretense of legitimacy... and that's just moronic, especially where there are different facts in play and the circumstances are totally different.

Some members never fail to disappoint me and embarrass themselves, in, like, every single thing they do on this site. But so many others are so much better than that, and they should conduct themselves accordingly.

Reported. You are so passive aggressive it's pathetic. I didn't bump the thread.

There are so many in-jokes and second accounts and old grudges I can't even tell when comments are ironic or earnest anymore.

This one's real. Don't fuel a fire.

http://cdn.makeagif.com...
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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12/13/2015 7:47:00 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
At 12/13/2015 7:44:17 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 12/13/2015 7:37:06 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 12/13/2015 7:36:10 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 12/13/2015 5:25:59 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/13/2015 5:56:03 AM, YYW wrote:
Specifically, this is what's going on: an inactive member (i.e. one whose inactivity is a net benefit to the site) bumps the thread of another inactive member (i.e. one whose activity was a net benefit to the site) where the former formerly active member's thread's content contains nothing more than some petty complaints about people's actions in the way of getting a title and maintaining a reputation, as opposed to "contributing" or whatever.

The reason bumping that thread was stupid (aside from the obvious reasons) was because bsh1 *has* contributed, and continues to contribute, at a rate which is both vastly greater (more content) and broader (more areas of involvement) than both the inactive members who wrote the thread that was bumped, and the member who bumped the thread, combined, by any reasonable measure.

So, when I say "stupid" I want to be clear that I mean at least all of these following adjectives: hypocritical, ironic, shallow, injudicious, inapropriate, unmerited, unnecessary, lacking in merit, lacking in substance, lacking in relevance, and lacking in general coherence.

There is always this tendency to go back to something that some other member who once mattered, and then quote that person or whatever, and then transpose that into the instant situation... because it gives this pretense of legitimacy... and that's just moronic, especially where there are different facts in play and the circumstances are totally different.

Some members never fail to disappoint me and embarrass themselves, in, like, every single thing they do on this site. But so many others are so much better than that, and they should conduct themselves accordingly.

Reported. You are so passive aggressive it's pathetic. I didn't bump the thread.

There are so many in-jokes and second accounts and old grudges I can't even tell when comments are ironic or earnest anymore.

This one's real. Don't fuel a fire.

http://cdn.makeagif.com...

I'm...mostly impressed that the gif went on that long.
http://giphy.com...
Vox_Veritas
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12/13/2015 9:55:42 PM
Posted: 12 months ago
What the crap happened to Mirza?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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