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Official: Voting Reform Announcement

bsh1
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12/14/2015 1:01:44 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
This announcement was originally intended to be posted after the election. However, given the current situation, I have decided to post it now, while I still have the authority to do so. I hope it is something DDO can stand behind, use, and enjoy. This was one of the projects most important to me, and I thought it would benefit the community significantly. I sincerely hope that this wish is borne out.

===========================

Aloha, DDO!

One of the main things I ran on last election was delivering some form of voting reform. Throughout my administration, I've been working with moderation to develop a plan that will work for the site, and I want to lay out here for you that plan.

The way voting currently works gives us a wide array of options to choose from, from the least strict (no RFD required) to judge debates. However, there are challenges with all of these systems, and while moderation regarding voting (particularly on the 7-point system) has done a lot to improve the average quality of votes, we do feel as if additional options may be useful to members in ensuring that the votes placed on their debates are of good quality.

The opt-in will have optional voting guidelines that are more stringent than those of existing moderation. Whiteflame clarified this by writing: "The major differences between the current voting system and the opt-in system will essentially be what separates a sufficient vote from a good vote right now. Currently, voters are expected to merely address the chief arguments made and give some clear assessment of how they view the outcomes. The voters in the opt-in will be expected to present an RFD that covers all of the major arguments made, including rebuttals and counter-rebuttals, and weigh them clearly to explain how they impacted the outcome. Voters will also be expected to address issues that did not impact their vote, and explain why. Further, voters will be required to provide feedback to debaters on how to improve their arguments, either in a separate section or as part of the RFD. This increased level of explication will also be required for other issues in the 7-point system, where voters will be expected to explain, with examples, why each point was awarded. Much as with the current system, the difference between voters on S&G and sources will have to be stark. Voters will be expected to explain why the difference in spelling, formatting or grammar was substantial enough to merit S&G. Voters will be expected to explain why accessibility, reliability, relevance, and quantity of sources merit a given side's receipt of those points. Conduct will require instances of forfeit, ad hominem attacks on the other debater, a rules violation , or other clear and explicit breaches. Even if voters are not affording these points, voters are still encouraged to provide analysis that explains why the debaters were tied in each of these areas. The main difference, across the board, is extended analysis, with examples given in the debate and with limited or no bias included. Thus, voters will be expected in every case to provide more than the 1000 character limit RFDs, either posting in the comments or posting elsewhere and linking their RFDs for the debaters and moderators to read." These opt-in standards are comprehensive, and provide moderation with a clear understanding of how to moderate those debates in which it is invoked.

To be absolutely clear, this system is entirely voluntary for the debaters. No one is required to use this system, and it will not be applied to every debate or vote. Only on those debates where it is specifically and clearly agreed to by the debaters will this set of guidelines be enforced. So, this is not a change to how votes are typically moderated, or a change to vote moderation in general, though it should be said that vote moderation has looked at this opt-in option and it has been endorsed by Whiteflame and Airmax. Furthermore, in polling that I've done on the site, I've found that a majority of respondents support this kind of opt-in, and it gives them a greater variety of choices to pick from, which I can only see as a plus.

Please feel free to comment, and I will of course endeavor to answer any questions you have! Thank you!

==========================

Here is the link to the guide: https://docs.google.com...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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imabench
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12/14/2015 1:04:00 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
"The opt-in will have optional voting guidelines that are more stringent than those of existing moderation"

/out
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
bsh1
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12/14/2015 1:05:50 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 1:04:00 AM, imabench wrote:
"The opt-in will have optional voting guidelines that are more stringent than those of existing moderation"

/out

That's the whole idea. If you don't like it, don't use it. It is 100% up to the users.

It only expands the array of options open to debaters.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
whiteflame
Posts: 1,378
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12/14/2015 2:37:28 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 1:01:44 AM, bsh1 wrote:
This announcement was originally intended to be posted after the election. However, given the current situation, I have decided to post it now, while I still have the authority to do so. I hope it is something DDO can stand behind, use, and enjoy. This was one of the projects most important to me, and I thought it would benefit the community significantly. I sincerely hope that this wish is borne out.

===========================

Aloha, DDO!

One of the main things I ran on last election was delivering some form of voting reform. Throughout my administration, I've been working with moderation to develop a plan that will work for the site, and I want to lay out here for you that plan.

The way voting currently works gives us a wide array of options to choose from, from the least strict (no RFD required) to judge debates. However, there are challenges with all of these systems, and while moderation regarding voting (particularly on the 7-point system) has done a lot to improve the average quality of votes, we do feel as if additional options may be useful to members in ensuring that the votes placed on their debates are of good quality.

The opt-in will have optional voting guidelines that are more stringent than those of existing moderation. Whiteflame clarified this by writing: "The major differences between the current voting system and the opt-in system will essentially be what separates a sufficient vote from a good vote right now. Currently, voters are expected to merely address the chief arguments made and give some clear assessment of how they view the outcomes. The voters in the opt-in will be expected to present an RFD that covers all of the major arguments made, including rebuttals and counter-rebuttals, and weigh them clearly to explain how they impacted the outcome. Voters will also be expected to address issues that did not impact their vote, and explain why. Further, voters will be required to provide feedback to debaters on how to improve their arguments, either in a separate section or as part of the RFD. This increased level of explication will also be required for other issues in the 7-point system, where voters will be expected to explain, with examples, why each point was awarded. Much as with the current system, the difference between voters on S&G and sources will have to be stark. Voters will be expected to explain why the difference in spelling, formatting or grammar was substantial enough to merit S&G. Voters will be expected to explain why accessibility, reliability, relevance, and quantity of sources merit a given side's receipt of those points. Conduct will require instances of forfeit, ad hominem attacks on the other debater, a rules violation , or other clear and explicit breaches. Even if voters are not affording these points, voters are still encouraged to provide analysis that explains why the debaters were tied in each of these areas. The main difference, across the board, is extended analysis, with examples given in the debate and with limited or no bias included. Thus, voters will be expected in every case to provide more than the 1000 character limit RFDs, either posting in the comments or posting elsewhere and linking their RFDs for the debaters and moderators to read." These opt-in standards are comprehensive, and provide moderation with a clear understanding of how to moderate those debates in which it is invoked.

To be absolutely clear, this system is entirely voluntary for the debaters. No one is required to use this system, and it will not be applied to every debate or vote. Only on those debates where it is specifically and clearly agreed to by the debaters will this set of guidelines be enforced. So, this is not a change to how votes are typically moderated, or a change to vote moderation in general, though it should be said that vote moderation has looked at this opt-in option and it has been endorsed by Whiteflame and Airmax. Furthermore, in polling that I've done on the site, I've found that a majority of respondents support this kind of opt-in, and it gives them a greater variety of choices to pick from, which I can only see as a plus.

Please feel free to comment, and I will of course endeavor to answer any questions you have! Thank you!

==========================

Here is the link to the guide: https://docs.google.com...

Happy to see this come to fruition. Frankly, I think a lot of people will be happy to implement this. I'm willing to put in the extra work to make this a reality, guys, and I think it's going to give a lot of people who are unhappy with the sufficient vs. good vote gulf the ability to take control over the vote quality. And for those of you who don't want to use this, feel free to never use it. There's no reason you're forced to engage in this system. Just be aware when you're voting.
imabench
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12/14/2015 2:45:25 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Im confused as to who you think will actually sign up for this. From what I can tell, the vast majority of DDOers believe that voting moderation around here is too strict to begin with, so making a voluntary signup sheet to abide by even stricter standards seems a little confusing to me
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
bsh1
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12/14/2015 2:57:12 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 2:45:25 AM, imabench wrote:
Im confused as to who you think will actually sign up for this. From what I can tell, the vast majority of DDOers believe that voting moderation around here is too strict to begin with, so making a voluntary signup sheet to abide by even stricter standards seems a little confusing to me

A lot feel like it is too strict, but I've spoken with people who think the opposite.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
whiteflame
Posts: 1,378
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12/14/2015 2:58:00 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 2:45:25 AM, imabench wrote:
Im confused as to who you think will actually sign up for this. From what I can tell, the vast majority of DDOers believe that voting moderation around here is too strict to begin with, so making a voluntary signup sheet to abide by even stricter standards seems a little confusing to me

I'm aware of at least a few people who have been eagerly looking forward to this system being implemented. Yes, it's not commonplace, but that's not the point (and, frankly, if it was, I'd be overworked anyway because this will require a lot more work on my part). The point is that for those few who want it, this is a way to ensure that the votes they get aren't just sufficient by current standards. It doesn't matter if that number is small, it matters that those debaters feel that they are getting an appropriate standard of voting on their debates.
PetersSmith
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12/14/2015 3:02:36 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 1:01:44 AM, bsh1 wrote:

Can you please do something, ANYTHING to try to fix the poll bugs?
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
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Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
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12/14/2015 3:03:01 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 2:57:12 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/14/2015 2:45:25 AM, imabench wrote:
Im confused as to who you think will actually sign up for this. From what I can tell, the vast majority of DDOers believe that voting moderation around here is too strict to begin with, so making a voluntary signup sheet to abide by even stricter standards seems a little confusing to me

A lot feel like it is too strict, but I've spoken with people who think the opposite.

such as.....?
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
bsh1
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12/14/2015 3:03:12 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 3:02:36 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 12/14/2015 1:01:44 AM, bsh1 wrote:

Can you please do something, ANYTHING to try to fix the poll bugs?

I can try.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
PetersSmith
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12/14/2015 3:03:57 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 3:03:12 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/14/2015 3:02:36 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 12/14/2015 1:01:44 AM, bsh1 wrote:

Can you please do something, ANYTHING to try to fix the poll bugs?

I can try.

I hope so.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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12/14/2015 3:04:01 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 3:03:01 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/14/2015 2:57:12 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/14/2015 2:45:25 AM, imabench wrote:
Im confused as to who you think will actually sign up for this. From what I can tell, the vast majority of DDOers believe that voting moderation around here is too strict to begin with, so making a voluntary signup sheet to abide by even stricter standards seems a little confusing to me

A lot feel like it is too strict, but I've spoken with people who think the opposite.

such as.....?

I mean, I will let those people come forward themselves. I am not going to speak for them.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
MagicAintReal
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12/14/2015 3:38:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 3:04:01 AM, bsh1 wrote:

A lot feel like it is too strict, but I've spoken with people who think the opposite.

such as.....?

I mean, I will let those people come forward themselves. I am not going to speak for them.

I am coming forward.
It's basically come to the point where I just keep asking moderators and higher quality voters to vote every time on my debates, because I get some biased troll whose on a mission to prove their beliefs by voting me down...
Some people might never run into a really bad "sufficient" vote, but it has happened to me all too often, mainly because I do debates that threaten core religious beliefs, and people want retribution for my blasphemy...but this should not be considered in the votes.

I'm with the mods on this, how can having more options and more attention to and clarification of votes be a bad thing?

Voters should provide examples to merit quality votes, rather than just sufficing for a vote...the whole point of this site is to get better at debating, having an optional system that attempts to improve this benefit has my vote...pun intended.
bsh1
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12/14/2015 3:39:48 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 3:38:14 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
I'm with the mods on this, how can having more options and more attention to and clarification of votes be a bad thing?

Agreed.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
airmax1227
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12/14/2015 3:43:58 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
I'm happy to see this posted, and I look forward to another option being implemented.

I echo the sentiments that, while many might not want stricter moderation on votes, this is an opt-in option only, and giving debaters more options to customize how they want their debate to be can only be a good thing.

This will certainly require more work from Whiteflame (especially) and myself, but in the end it's a great addition and I commend Bsh for all the work he put into it.
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tejretics
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12/14/2015 4:56:07 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
I am strongly in favor of this.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
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12/14/2015 5:18:30 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
So, is it enforced as of now? Can I -- if I plan to instigate a debate now -- say "I want the high voting standards as per the opt-in system," or "I want 'good' votes, not merely 'sufficient' votes"?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
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12/20/2015 1:10:47 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
It would be useful to make it mandatory to explain the arguments point in the 7-point system even if it's tied under these opt-in standards, to prevent -- for instance -- only-S&G votes that only explain S&G, etc.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
bsh1
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12/20/2015 8:16:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 5:18:30 AM, tejretics wrote:
So, is it enforced as of now? Can I -- if I plan to instigate a debate now -- say "I want the high voting standards as per the opt-in system," or "I want 'good' votes, not merely 'sufficient' votes"?

You must specify that you're using the opt-in system, and you must link the opt-in system in you R1. Don't just talk about good or sufficient votes--actually say the opt-in system.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...