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The treatment of voters on DDO

Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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12/24/2015 10:04:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
In light of some of the recent things that have been happening, I think I'd like to bring something up to (maybe) discuss - and that relates to the atmosphere and attitude that surrounds voting on DDO.

I've never really liked voting, except maybe on lighter, less serious debates or ones that I can know are easygoing, and that's because (in my opinion) the outlook and attitude that many outspoken users have towards how they interact with voters on their debates is awful.

Voters should never, ever be subject to intense, personal criticisms - regardless of irrelevant personal issues or the context of their relationship(s) with the debaters - because this seriously discourages people from taking the extra effort to go out and vote on debates that they've read. These criticisms and attacks, especially, should never make their way into the outside activities of users independent of the scope of the debate itself.

At least for me, this has seriously discouraged me from voting, and not only with individual users or necessarily recently. Nothing is more daunting to me than taking the time to read a debate, and then reading the forums and comments and finding out that in voting, I would likely be subjecting myself to personalized attacks and overbearing criticisms. I know from conversations I've had with others users on the site who don't vote much (like me) that they don't feel comfortable voting here, because they know it won't be worth it in the long run as people who don't like to deal with prolonged, very harsh criticism if they're taking the time as volunteers to meet our high standards of voting requirements.

If voters are going out of their way to vote for the betterment of the DDO community, I do think the administration should take stands in that regard to assure that they are respected - people shouldn't be afraid to vote because of possible retribution or retaliation. This applies and should apply to people of all statures and voting capacities, btw, so long as it is clear that the debater had a genuine understanding of the debate and met voting standards.

The integrity of a lot of debates on this site in regard to how they treate their voters has always been something that bothered me, and how they - the volunteer - are often expected to fork over and suck it up, rather than the debaters. That attitude is a problem...
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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12/24/2015 10:10:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I generally agree with the above, and have made comments in the past similar to what I am about to say.

There is a delicate balance to be struck. Voters make mistakes, and that has to be realized. Given that voters make mistakes, debaters should have the right to reasonably discuss and RFD with a voter, or pose questions to the voter about their RFD (e.g. - You didn't mention point X in your RFD? How did X factor (or not) into your vote?). The key word here is "reasonable." Many debaters who feel jilted or wronged by a vote tend to go to unreasonable lengths to challenge, harass, belittle, or intimidate voters. That is unacceptable. Voters have a right to vote knowing that they won't be badgered for doing so.

Balancing these two rights/considerations is hard, and it involves many grey areas and blurry lines, but, for most people, there are clear examples of when harassment as gone too far, and it is these fairly clear examples where action is needed most to protect voters.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Forever23
Posts: 988
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12/24/2015 10:13:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 10:04:48 PM, Daltonian wrote:
In light of some of the recent things that have been happening, I think I'd like to bring something up to (maybe) discuss - and that relates to the atmosphere and attitude that surrounds voting on DDO.

I've never really liked voting, except maybe on lighter, less serious debates or ones that I can know are easygoing, and that's because (in my opinion) the outlook and attitude that many outspoken users have towards how they interact with voters on their debates is awful.

Voters should never, ever be subject to intense, personal criticisms - regardless of irrelevant personal issues or the context of their relationship(s) with the debaters - because this seriously discourages people from taking the extra effort to go out and vote on debates that they've read. These criticisms and attacks, especially, should never make their way into the outside activities of users independent of the scope of the debate itself.

At least for me, this has seriously discouraged me from voting, and not only with individual users or necessarily recently. Nothing is more daunting to me than taking the time to read a debate, and then reading the forums and comments and finding out that in voting, I would likely be subjecting myself to personalized attacks and overbearing criticisms. I know from conversations I've had with others users on the site who don't vote much (like me) that they don't feel comfortable voting here, because they know it won't be worth it in the long run as people who don't like to deal with prolonged, very harsh criticism if they're taking the time as volunteers to meet our high standards of voting requirements.

If voters are going out of their way to vote for the betterment of the DDO community, I do think the administration should take stands in that regard to assure that they are respected - people shouldn't be afraid to vote because of possible retribution or retaliation. This applies and should apply to people of all statures and voting capacities, btw, so long as it is clear that the debater had a genuine understanding of the debate and met voting standards.

The integrity of a lot of debates on this site in regard to how they treate their voters has always been something that bothered me, and how they - the volunteer - are often expected to fork over and suck it up, rather than the debaters. That attitude is a problem...

I've never been offended and I hope I never will be. That's why I actually vote a lot. But I get what you mean and it does discourage many voters. I think that the treatment should change.
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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12/24/2015 10:18:00 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 10:10:23 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I generally agree with the above, and have made comments in the past similar to what I am about to say.
That's good to hear :)
I do have full confidence, by the way, that although this may seem like a larger problem, a lot of it is centred around the idea that a core set of outspoken users on the site seem to have; that being that it is their entitlement to belittle voters who vote on their debates.

Brian's presidency, at least to the extent that I have been updated after going on hiatus, is good for this, and is good for trying to combat these hostile attitudes.

It's attached to the idea of ownership and outlook of ownership that many have towards their debates.

There is a delicate balance to be struck. Voters make mistakes, and that has to be realized. Given that voters make mistakes, debaters should have the right to reasonably discuss and RFD with a voter, or pose questions to the voter about their RFD (e.g. - You didn't mention point X in your RFD? How did X factor (or not) into your vote?). The key word here is "reasonable." Many debaters who feel jilted or wronged by a vote tend to go to unreasonable lengths to challenge, harass, belittle, or intimidate voters. That is unacceptable. Voters have a right to vote knowing that they won't be badgered for doing so.
I also agree with this. Debaters do and should have a right to pose questions and be criticall of debates - but that right needs to remain within the scope of the debate and should NOT extend to the context of the entire site. Me voting on a debate shouldn't give others the right to extend their criticisms into my forum or other activities on DDO; I think this is an area where Max and the administration might need to take a harder stand.

Balancing these two rights/considerations is hard, and it involves many grey areas and blurry lines, but, for most people, there are clear examples of when harassment as gone too far, and it is these fairly clear examples where action is needed most to protect voters.
I think there is a definite line; and that is that debaters should keep their specific, personalized criticisms and questions in the comments section of a debate (unless the voter themselves decides to cast their vote via the forums), in accordance with the boundaries drawn by the voter.
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,098
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12/24/2015 10:28:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I agree with everything you said.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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12/24/2015 10:35:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 10:18:00 PM, Daltonian wrote:
At 12/24/2015 10:10:23 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I generally agree with the above, and have made comments in the past similar to what I am about to say.
That's good to hear :)

Well, I am glad you made this post. I think it's an important to have a levelheaded and serious discussion about this issue, and others like it.

Unfortunately, since I am not moderation, there is limit to the actions I can take, but this is a discussion I am prepared to engage in, and I am certainly willing to reach out to moderation about this.

There is a delicate balance to be struck. Voters make mistakes, and that has to be realized. Given that voters make mistakes, debaters should have the right to reasonably discuss and RFD with a voter, or pose questions to the voter about their RFD (e.g. - You didn't mention point X in your RFD? How did X factor (or not) into your vote?). The key word here is "reasonable." Many debaters who feel jilted or wronged by a vote tend to go to unreasonable lengths to challenge, harass, belittle, or intimidate voters. That is unacceptable. Voters have a right to vote knowing that they won't be badgered for doing so.
I also agree with this. Debaters do and should have a right to pose questions and be criticall of debates - but that right needs to remain within the scope of the debate and should NOT extend to the context of the entire site. Me voting on a debate shouldn't give others the right to extend their criticisms into my forum or other activities on DDO.

Agreed.

I think...debaters should keep their specific, personalized criticisms and questions in the comments section of a debate (unless the voter themselves decides to cast their vote via the forums), in accordance with the boundaries drawn by the voter.

Yeah, I concur. What you're referring to is called "cross-thread contamination" in the Personal Attack Policy.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Death23
Posts: 779
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12/25/2015 12:54:41 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 10:04:48 PM, Daltonian wrote:
In light of some of the recent things that have been happening, I think I'd like to bring something up to (maybe) discuss - and that relates to the atmosphere and attitude that surrounds voting on DDO.

I've never really liked voting, except maybe on lighter, less serious debates or ones that I can know are easygoing, and that's because (in my opinion) the outlook and attitude that many outspoken users have towards how they interact with voters on their debates is awful.

Voters should never, ever be subject to intense, personal criticisms - regardless of irrelevant personal issues or the context of their relationship(s) with the debaters - because this seriously discourages people from taking the extra effort to go out and vote on debates that they've read. These criticisms and attacks, especially, should never make their way into the outside activities of users independent of the scope of the debate itself.

At least for me, this has seriously discouraged me from voting, and not only with individual users or necessarily recently. Nothing is more daunting to me than taking the time to read a debate, and then reading the forums and comments and finding out that in voting, I would likely be subjecting myself to personalized attacks and overbearing criticisms. I know from conversations I've had with others users on the site who don't vote much (like me) that they don't feel comfortable voting here, because they know it won't be worth it in the long run as people who don't like to deal with prolonged, very harsh criticism if they're taking the time as volunteers to meet our high standards of voting requirements.

If voters are going out of their way to vote for the betterment of the DDO community, I do think the administration should take stands in that regard to assure that they are respected - people shouldn't be afraid to vote because of possible retribution or retaliation. This applies and should apply to people of all statures and voting capacities, btw, so long as it is clear that the debater had a genuine understanding of the debate and met voting standards.

The integrity of a lot of debates on this site in regard to how they treate their voters has always been something that bothered me, and how they - the volunteer - are often expected to fork over and suck it up, rather than the debaters. That attitude is a problem...

ive voted a lot I don't recall getting many personal attacks. mostly they attack the vote, but they're wrong anyway and too stubborn to admit it most of the time. sometimes people see why they were wrong, but most of the time they complain about w/e. sometimes your vote is wrong and u gotta change it based on the criticisms, tho I only do that if both debaters go along with it.
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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12/25/2015 12:56:10 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 10:04:48 PM, Daltonian wrote:
In light of some of the recent things that have been happening, I think I'd like to bring something up to (maybe) discuss - and that relates to the atmosphere and attitude that surrounds voting on DDO.

I've never really liked voting, except maybe on lighter, less serious debates or ones that I can know are easygoing, and that's because (in my opinion) the outlook and attitude that many outspoken users have towards how they interact with voters on their debates is awful.

Voters should never, ever be subject to intense, personal criticisms - regardless of irrelevant personal issues or the context of their relationship(s) with the debaters - because this seriously discourages people from taking the extra effort to go out and vote on debates that they've read. These criticisms and attacks, especially, should never make their way into the outside activities of users independent of the scope of the debate itself.

At least for me, this has seriously discouraged me from voting, and not only with individual users or necessarily recently. Nothing is more daunting to me than taking the time to read a debate, and then reading the forums and comments and finding out that in voting, I would likely be subjecting myself to personalized attacks and overbearing criticisms. I know from conversations I've had with others users on the site who don't vote much (like me) that they don't feel comfortable voting here, because they know it won't be worth it in the long run as people who don't like to deal with prolonged, very harsh criticism if they're taking the time as volunteers to meet our high standards of voting requirements.

If voters are going out of their way to vote for the betterment of the DDO community, I do think the administration should take stands in that regard to assure that they are respected - people shouldn't be afraid to vote because of possible retribution or retaliation. This applies and should apply to people of all statures and voting capacities, btw, so long as it is clear that the debater had a genuine understanding of the debate and met voting standards.

The integrity of a lot of debates on this site in regard to how they treate their voters has always been something that bothered me, and how they - the volunteer - are often expected to fork over and suck it up, rather than the debaters. That attitude is a problem...

Welcome back!
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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12/25/2015 1:46:17 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
RFD's are now debates They don't like your RFD its gone along with your vote. Unless blatant bias can be proved of vote bombing can be proved the mods have no business removing any vote made in good faith. Not everyone views debates the same way and not everyone lives in a myopic world. The fact that a voter would use real world experience and real world facts and knowledge in making points to explain their RFD is not grounds to remove a vote. The only grounds to remove a vote is bias or vote bombing. This site should be happy that anyone would take the time to read a debate and vote on it in good faith. But it isn't.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

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