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RFD - Affirmative Action is Desirable

PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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12/30/2015 1:50:33 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
PRO"s Case "

1. Reparatory Justice

CON misunderstood PRO"s argument initially. Her examples of the Mexicans and Egyptians are not relevant, as those wrongs of the past do not affect today"s people to the degree that other minorities are affected, which is PRO"s main contention. CON further claims that PRO did not affirm how past wrongs affect people today, but PRO"s strongest supporting evidence (absence of inherited financial wealth) did fulfill this purpose. PRO should have provided supporting statistics or sources, however.

2. Diversity

CON"s rebuttal about diverse teams =/= racial diversity is irrelevant when PRO states his source addresses benefits of racial diversity specifically. PRO further demonstrates that Putnam"s study supports his own conclusions, as detriments CON described are only short-term in nature, and long-term benefits will outweigh them (as according to Putnam). CON only states that PRO"s analysis of Putnam is inaccurate, but does not establish why. She only states that "his results show serious problems with diversity," but PRO established that these were short-term.

3. Integration

While CON"s use of the SAT score gap seemed irrelevant, her arguments were superior to PRO"s. She correctly pointed out that PRO was using diversity as an assumed premise and that society should be concerned with equal opportunity and not equal results. PRO"s argument did not extend beyond his assumed premise.

4. Ongoing Racism/Sexism

CON wins this contention. She disproved the wage-gap and demonstrated other evidences to be non sequitur, to which PRO did not respond.

CON"s Case "

1. Economic Costs

CON conceded that the costs of AA are exaggerated, but successfully demonstrated that the opportunity cost figure was accurate and was due to AA; however, it is worth noting that PRO"s R2 would lessen the negative impact of AA"s costs.

2. Minority Harms

In regard to over promotion, PRO"s strongest rebuttal is that overmatched students tend to be carried along to more success, but as CON stated, this appears to be a qualitative assessment. Without more substantial statistics, CON"s facts about a large SAT gap and lower acceptance rates without AA are more compelling.

For less black lawyers, CON seems to think that Sander"s study is discredited because AA is "pivotal in achieving racial diversity," but instead PRO argued that Sander"s study exaggerated the mismatch effects and made false assumptions. PRO successfully got rid of CON"s argument here.

CON"s argument concerning self-doubt was nebulous and not linked together, as PRO stated. It cannot be assumed that AA was the direct cause of the such internal issues, as any number of reasons could be assumed to cause it (e.g. as PRO mentioned, institutional racism).

PRO failed to dispel CON"s argument about a substantial drop in Asian acceptance rates, and CON explained that even if lower-income Asian groups benefit, that does not change the fact that other well-qualified Asian students are not being accepted.

Overall, PRO did not completely refute CON"s arguments concerning minority harms.

3. Racial Tension

CON"s argument was not convincing, as no causal link was established between whatever racial tension AA created and violence erupting (as in the Baltimore Riots). CON also did not show to what degree AA creates racial tension, if at all. She merely provided sources of people disagreeing on the matter of AA. Her argument that some whites "feel" discriminated against is not substantial. Because of this, Salter"s novel is irrelevant, as it only applies if racial tensions can be successful shown as a result of AA.

4. Sexism

The gender quotas CON sourced are only potential and, considering quotas are illegal, we cannot assume they would happen. PRO debunks this argument.

Summary: Left standing are the two initial contentions of both PRO and CON. PRO successfully proved that diversity would lead to better functioning teams with superior problem solving skills and that cities with increased diversity would experience higher economic growth and indicators of productivity. As AA results in higher levels of diversity in education and occupations, AA thus brings a positive contribution. At the same time, this would help redress the past wrongs to minorities by giving minorities opportunities they otherwise would have lacked due to institutional racism.

These benefits seem to be worth the economic costs of AA that CON presented, especially since some of them were over-exaggerated and AA would result in positive economic output. Although minority students do indeed struggle at schools, this lack of success is not as bad as it may seem, as there are still benefits of attending higher tier schools that PRO pointed out (and mismatched students tend to learn from their failures). Combined with the benefits of AA established by CON (that increased diversity in education and occupations would lead to better problem solving skills), and it seems that it"s worth the struggle of minority students. Lastly, while well-qualified Asian students wouldn"t get to everywhere they wanted, they would still have a myriad of other opportunities. AA would provide opportunities to those who wouldn"t have as many otherwise.

I thus vote in favor of PRO.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,125
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12/30/2015 1:52:55 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 1:52:31 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:52:10 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:51:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
Link to the debate please

http://www.debate.org...

Thank you.

no problem.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/30/2015 1:53:08 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 1:52:10 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:51:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
Link to the debate please

http://www.debate.org...

Thanks
Zaradi
Posts: 14,125
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12/30/2015 1:57:12 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 1:53:08 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:52:10 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:51:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
Link to the debate please

http://www.debate.org...

Thanks

No problem.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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12/30/2015 2:36:40 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 1:57:12 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:53:08 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:52:10 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:51:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
Link to the debate please

http://www.debate.org...

Thanks

No problem.

Thanks.
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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12/30/2015 2:40:38 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 2:36:40 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:57:12 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:53:08 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:52:10 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 12/30/2015 1:51:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
Link to the debate please

http://www.debate.org...

Thanks

No problem.

Thanks.

No problem.
YYW
Posts: 36,287
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12/30/2015 3:01:59 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 1:50:33 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
PRO"s Case "

1. Reparatory Justice

CON misunderstood PRO"s argument initially. Her examples of the Mexicans and Egyptians are not relevant, as those wrongs of the past do not affect today"s people to the degree that other minorities are affected, which is PRO"s main contention. CON further claims that PRO did not affirm how past wrongs affect people today, but PRO"s strongest supporting evidence (absence of inherited financial wealth) did fulfill this purpose. PRO should have provided supporting statistics or sources, however.

2. Diversity

CON"s rebuttal about diverse teams =/= racial diversity is irrelevant when PRO states his source addresses benefits of racial diversity specifically. PRO further demonstrates that Putnam"s study supports his own conclusions, as detriments CON described are only short-term in nature, and long-term benefits will outweigh them (as according to Putnam). CON only states that PRO"s analysis of Putnam is inaccurate, but does not establish why. She only states that "his results show serious problems with diversity," but PRO established that these were short-term.

3. Integration

While CON"s use of the SAT score gap seemed irrelevant, her arguments were superior to PRO"s. She correctly pointed out that PRO was using diversity as an assumed premise and that society should be concerned with equal opportunity and not equal results. PRO"s argument did not extend beyond his assumed premise.

4. Ongoing Racism/Sexism

CON wins this contention. She disproved the wage-gap and demonstrated other evidences to be non sequitur, to which PRO did not respond.

CON"s Case "

1. Economic Costs

CON conceded that the costs of AA are exaggerated, but successfully demonstrated that the opportunity cost figure was accurate and was due to AA; however, it is worth noting that PRO"s R2 would lessen the negative impact of AA"s costs.

2. Minority Harms

In regard to over promotion, PRO"s strongest rebuttal is that overmatched students tend to be carried along to more success, but as CON stated, this appears to be a qualitative assessment. Without more substantial statistics, CON"s facts about a large SAT gap and lower acceptance rates without AA are more compelling.

For less black lawyers, CON seems to think that Sander"s study is discredited because AA is "pivotal in achieving racial diversity," but instead PRO argued that Sander"s study exaggerated the mismatch effects and made false assumptions. PRO successfully got rid of CON"s argument here.

CON"s argument concerning self-doubt was nebulous and not linked together, as PRO stated. It cannot be assumed that AA was the direct cause of the such internal issues, as any number of reasons could be assumed to cause it (e.g. as PRO mentioned, institutional racism).

PRO failed to dispel CON"s argument about a substantial drop in Asian acceptance rates, and CON explained that even if lower-income Asian groups benefit, that does not change the fact that other well-qualified Asian students are not being accepted.

Overall, PRO did not completely refute CON"s arguments concerning minority harms.

3. Racial Tension

CON"s argument was not convincing, as no causal link was established between whatever racial tension AA created and violence erupting (as in the Baltimore Riots). CON also did not show to what degree AA creates racial tension, if at all. She merely provided sources of people disagreeing on the matter of AA. Her argument that some whites "feel" discriminated against is not substantial. Because of this, Salter"s novel is irrelevant, as it only applies if racial tensions can be successful shown as a result of AA.

4. Sexism

The gender quotas CON sourced are only potential and, considering quotas are illegal, we cannot assume they would happen. PRO debunks this argument.

Summary: Left standing are the two initial contentions of both PRO and CON. PRO successfully proved that diversity would lead to better functioning teams with superior problem solving skills and that cities with increased diversity would experience higher economic growth and indicators of productivity. As AA results in higher levels of diversity in education and occupations, AA thus brings a positive contribution. At the same time, this would help redress the past wrongs to minorities by giving minorities opportunities they otherwise would have lacked due to institutional racism.

These benefits seem to be worth the economic costs of AA that CON presented, especially since some of them were over-exaggerated and AA would result in positive economic output. Although minority students do indeed struggle at schools, this lack of success is not as bad as it may seem, as there are still benefits of attending higher tier schools that PRO pointed out (and mismatched students tend to learn from their failures). Combined with the benefits of AA established by CON (that increased diversity in education and occupations would lead to better problem solving skills), and it seems that it"s worth the struggle of minority students. Lastly, while well-qualified Asian students wouldn"t get to everywhere they wanted, they would still have a myriad of other opportunities. AA would provide opportunities to those who wouldn"t have as many otherwise.

I thus vote in favor of PRO.

You got the right answer, but these usually are best left off the main forum... unless you were trying to draw some drama your way in which case... good luck dude.
Tsar of DDO
PeacefulChaos
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12/30/2015 3:16:33 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 3:01:59 AM, YYW wrote:

You got the right answer, but these usually are best left off the main forum... unless you were trying to draw some drama your way in which case... good luck dude.

Sorry about that.

As I don't frequent DDO that often, where would the best forum be? I'm often not involved in all the drama, so I wasn't aware of this.
YYW
Posts: 36,287
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12/30/2015 3:17:59 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 3:16:33 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 12/30/2015 3:01:59 AM, YYW wrote:

You got the right answer, but these usually are best left off the main forum... unless you were trying to draw some drama your way in which case... good luck dude.

Sorry about that.

As I don't frequent DDO that often, where would the best forum be? I'm often not involved in all the drama, so I wasn't aware of this.

Yes... there was a massive sh!tstorm surrounding this debate. One debater retaliated against both her opponent (for beating her in the debate), and then when she lost, retaliated against everyone who gave her the loss in all kinds of disgusting ways.
Tsar of DDO
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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12/30/2015 3:47:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 3:16:33 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 12/30/2015 3:01:59 AM, YYW wrote:

You got the right answer, but these usually are best left off the main forum... unless you were trying to draw some drama your way in which case... good luck dude.

Sorry about that.

As I don't frequent DDO that often, where would the best forum be? I'm often not involved in all the drama, so I wasn't aware of this.

The forum topic corresponding with the topic of the debate. Policy goes to politics forum, society-society forum, etc.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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12/30/2015 5:27:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 3:47:42 PM, Hayd wrote:

The forum topic corresponding with the topic of the debate. Policy goes to politics forum, society-society forum, etc.

This makes sense. Thanks.