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We need to relax voting standards

tajshar2k
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1/25/2016 10:16:49 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
When I first came to DDO, debates I read had a minimum of at least 6 votes. Now, that's pretty much the most people will ever get. The standard voting standards are a bit too harsh in my opinion, and I think we need to go to what we had before. The only people who vote are the most experienced debaters, and for the average debate, we need everybody to vote, since this is what encourages people to continue to read debates.

I know what some will say. "We have a no rfd option" The problem with that is that is literally could be something not even related to the topic. I could type "hi" as my rfd and it would pass. What I would like is maybe 3-4 sentences explaining why they think they won.

Of course, if people don't like that, they could say they need in depth rfd's (what we have now), and business would continue as usual.

Overall, I think we need to encourage others to vote. I really like what Donald Keller is doing with the Voter's Union, but I think we could improve.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
bsh1
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1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.
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famousdebater
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1/25/2016 10:24:20 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I agree. I don't find it necessary to talk about every single argument and rebuttal presented. You should read the debate, say who you think won and explain it but I a more general sense rather than looking at every single thing specifically.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
famousdebater
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1/25/2016 10:26:41 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

I think that it's more about laziness than skill in terms of voting. People who see 15k + long character RFDs feel like this is the standard and then get put off simply because they cannot be bothered.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
RainbowDash52
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1/25/2016 10:29:46 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Or instead of having 3 debates be the prerequisite for voting, we could implement some kind of voting test in order for people to vote, so that voters actually have to understand all the rules of voting. That should easily eliminate 90% of the invalid votes.
famousdebater
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1/25/2016 10:32:45 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:29:46 PM, RainbowDash52 wrote:
Or instead of having 3 debates be the prerequisite for voting, we could implement some kind of voting test in order for people to vote, so that voters actually have to understand all the rules of voting. That should easily eliminate 90% of the invalid votes.

Good idea but we already have a shortage of voters and won't this test just create less of them?
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
RainbowDash52
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1/25/2016 10:35:10 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:32:45 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:29:46 PM, RainbowDash52 wrote:
Or instead of having 3 debates be the prerequisite for voting, we could implement some kind of voting test in order for people to vote, so that voters actually have to understand all the rules of voting. That should easily eliminate 90% of the invalid votes.

Good idea but we already have a shortage of voters and won't this test just create less of them?

Fewer people might start voting, but the ones who do will probably continue to vote on more debates since they won't get a few votes delete and then quit voting from frustration.
bsh1
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1/25/2016 10:35:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:26:41 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

I think that it's more about laziness than skill in terms of voting. People who see 15k + long character RFDs feel like this is the standard and then get put off simply because they cannot be bothered.

Right, and that is a myth it would be useful to dispel. I might work on this as a project through my administration.
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Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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1/25/2016 10:37:12 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:35:59 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:26:41 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

I think that it's more about laziness than skill in terms of voting. People who see 15k + long character RFDs feel like this is the standard and then get put off simply because they cannot be bothered.

Right, and that is a myth it would be useful to dispel. I might work on this as a project through my administration.

I mean, we've literally said in dozens of different places about how this isn't actually the standard...
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bsh1
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1/25/2016 10:37:56 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:37:12 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:35:59 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:26:41 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

I think that it's more about laziness than skill in terms of voting. People who see 15k + long character RFDs feel like this is the standard and then get put off simply because they cannot be bothered.

Right, and that is a myth it would be useful to dispel. I might work on this as a project through my administration.

I mean, we've literally said in dozens of different places about how this isn't actually the standard...

Yeah, but an organized class might help spread the word further.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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famousdebater
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1/25/2016 10:47:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:35:59 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:26:41 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

I think that it's more about laziness than skill in terms of voting. People who see 15k + long character RFDs feel like this is the standard and then get put off simply because they cannot be bothered.

Right, and that is a myth it would be useful to dispel. I might work on this as a project through my administration.

Yeah, that sounds good because it's really harming vote quantity on debates.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
bsh1
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1/25/2016 10:49:40 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:47:59 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:35:59 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:26:41 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

I think that it's more about laziness than skill in terms of voting. People who see 15k + long character RFDs feel like this is the standard and then get put off simply because they cannot be bothered.

Right, and that is a myth it would be useful to dispel. I might work on this as a project through my administration.

Yeah, that sounds good because it's really harming vote quantity on debates.

Cool. I'll definitely float some ideas about how to do this to those involved in my administration. Hopefully, we can come up with something.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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famousdebater
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1/25/2016 10:50:09 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:37:12 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:35:59 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:26:41 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

I think that it's more about laziness than skill in terms of voting. People who see 15k + long character RFDs feel like this is the standard and then get put off simply because they cannot be bothered.

Right, and that is a myth it would be useful to dispel. I might work on this as a project through my administration.

I mean, we've literally said in dozens of different places about how this isn't actually the standard...

I know that but not everybody reads the presidential updates and the posts that whiteflame and others have made in regards to it. The majority of DDO consists of noobs and most noobs don't use the forums.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
tajshar2k
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1/25/2016 11:35:56 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:24:20 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I agree. I don't find it necessary to talk about every single argument and rebuttal presented. You should read the debate, say who you think won and explain it but I a more general sense rather than looking at every single thing specifically.

+1 Exactly. That's what it used to be before you joined the site. People got like 25 points minimum back then on their debates.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
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1/25/2016 11:36:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

Not really, for most debates, in order to give a good vote you need to actually go in-depth. Unless, you can show me some super short votes that are sufficient.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
bsh1
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1/25/2016 11:38:18 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 11:36:37 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

Not really, for most debates, in order to give a good vote you need to actually go in-depth. Unless, you can show me some super short votes that are sufficient.

You need to cover the key issues. A solid paragraph is oftentimes enough, but 2 sentences for a 3 round or 4 round debate? That is almost always insufficient. The point is, you don't need to write an essay to vote, which is the misconception.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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famousdebater
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1/26/2016 12:16:45 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 11:38:18 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 11:36:37 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

Not really, for most debates, in order to give a good vote you need to actually go in-depth. Unless, you can show me some super short votes that are sufficient.

You need to cover the key issues. A solid paragraph is oftentimes enough, but 2 sentences for a 3 round or 4 round debate? That is almost always insufficient. The point is, you don't need to write an essay to vote, which is the misconception.

The problem is, with 4/5 round debates, it is extremely difficult to write a short RFD for without it being removed.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
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whiteflame
Posts: 1,378
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1/26/2016 12:18:44 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:16:49 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
When I first came to DDO, debates I read had a minimum of at least 6 votes. Now, that's pretty much the most people will ever get. The standard voting standards are a bit too harsh in my opinion, and I think we need to go to what we had before. The only people who vote are the most experienced debaters, and for the average debate, we need everybody to vote, since this is what encourages people to continue to read debates.


I know what some will say. "We have a no rfd option" The problem with that is that is literally could be something not even related to the topic. I could type "hi" as my rfd and it would pass. What I would like is maybe 3-4 sentences explaining why they think they won.

Of course, if people don't like that, they could say they need in depth rfd's (what we have now), and business would continue as usual.

Overall, I think we need to encourage others to vote. I really like what Donald Keller is doing with the Voter's Union, but I think we could improve.

I think there's a distinct problem with the perception of what is a sufficient vote, and I think that's what is causing the most trouble. 3-4 sentences can easily be sufficient - it really doesn't take much. The idea that voters have to directly address every argument is just not true, and neither is the idea that there must be extensive analysis of every point mentioned. I could provide literally dozens of examples of votes that passed moderation and stayed well under the 1000 character limit.

It's a problem with messaging, I get that. I'd say less than 1 in 10 people whose votes are removed actually attempt to vote on those same debates again, and many of those disregard what's stated in the reasons for removal. Given that I'm posting those reasons in the comments and that those same reasons are messaged to them by BoT, I don't think there's much that can be done about that latter problem, but perhaps the former can be addressed. The difficulty is in finding ways to reach out to these debaters that encourages them to try again rather than rejected.

That's kind of difficult, though. Many of the people who added their votes to all of those debates back when we first joined were newbies, people with very little experience who just wanted to post their opinions on a given debate. They would post a vote, it would basically just be a statement of how they generally viewed the topic. The result was that many of the debates ended with a victory going to the side with the more popular opinion. Those same people get really upset when they're told that they cannot present their opinion as a vote because, let's face it, that's what they want to do. It's rather difficult to facilitate an improvement in their voting because that's never been their goal. A lot of these people are transient - they're not here for the long term, and only want to use this like they'd use Yahoo! Answers or Sodahead.

But I suppose they're not the ones you want to reach out to. It's the people who are willing to be here for the long haul and are trying to vote, not just produce opinions. I'd say this accounts for a much smaller amount of voters than the previous group, but it's a problem. I've gotten my share of hate from new members who find the standards too onerous to want to be on the site. The result is that we lose a lot of new blood that actually do want to spend their time here contributing substantively. The problem is that they only want to contribute. These are people who don't want to be silenced in any way, and when faced with the prospect of not being able to post votes without my or BoT's say-so, they become outright hostile.

I'm honestly not sure how we should reach these people. I don't know if it's possible to have a moderation policy and reach these people at the same time. Perhaps reducing the standards would keep some, but there will always be a certain degree of exodus among this group. Moderation is antithetical to what they seek: they want to have their debates and contribute intellectually to the site. So, while I can see the potential benefit, I don't think it's a large one unless we do away with moderation altogether.
lannan13
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1/26/2016 12:50:09 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:

No, but when someone straight forfeits and you simply use the RFD "Forfeiture" and your vote is removed, then you know that the mods are board as fvck and the voting standards are way to strict.
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RainbowDash52
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1/26/2016 12:55:56 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 12:50:09 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:

No, but when someone straight forfeits and you simply use the RFD "Forfeiture" and your vote is removed, then you know that the mods are board as fvck and the voting standards are way to strict.

"Forfeiture" is a valid RFD as long as you only award conduct.
whiteflame
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1/26/2016 1:01:56 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 12:50:09 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:

No, but when someone straight forfeits and you simply use the RFD "Forfeiture" and your vote is removed, then you know that the mods are board as fvck and the voting standards are way to strict.

If you're referring to votes that were removed recently...

a) I can promise you they were not removed out of boredom. Removal takes as much time as non-removal for me, and believe me when I say that the gigantic amount of reports I've gotten recently is no picnic.

b) The votes of yours that were reported and removed treated those debates as though one side had never argued. There's a difference between a full forfeit where one side didn't argue at all and a debate where one side forfeits the majority of their rounds. In the former case, you can award all the points you want to the other side under the justification of "Forfeiture". In the latter, you can award only conduct under that justification, and you must do more to justify further point allocations.
Forever23
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1/26/2016 1:07:24 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I thing that the president and mods (Max, Bsh, Flame, BoT) really need to find a certain balance. They need to make sure that the votes are good and that the people don't get discourages. It is really annoying to go and write out 6 pages worth RFD for one debate and I think that many potential voters prefer not to do that.

I think that the voting standards should be lowered to simply the level where you shortly say what arguments were introduced and and which were refuted. Simple as that. It will make things easier than now but there will still be certain requirements.
whiteflame
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1/26/2016 1:13:16 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 1:07:24 AM, Forever23 wrote:
I thing that the president and mods (Max, Bsh, Flame, BoT) really need to find a certain balance. They need to make sure that the votes are good and that the people don't get discourages. It is really annoying to go and write out 6 pages worth RFD for one debate and I think that many potential voters prefer not to do that.

Someone mentioned this earlier, but the 6 page long RFD is absolutely not required by any stretch of the imagination. No lengthy RFD is ever required except if the debate is on the new standards. If it's still on the old ones (as almost all of them are), then there's no need to even push past the 1000 character limit in practically any debate.

I think that the voting standards should be lowered to simply the level where you shortly say what arguments were introduced and and which were refuted. Simple as that. It will make things easier than now but there will still be certain requirements.

I'm not sure if you understand the standards. A vote that does exactly what you just stated would meet the basic standards. I've passed many votes by that have done just that. Are you under the perception that more is required?
bsh1
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1/26/2016 1:26:45 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 12:50:09 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:

No, but when someone straight forfeits and you simply use the RFD "Forfeiture" and your vote is removed, then you know that the mods are board as fvck and the voting standards are way to strict.

Could I see an example?
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bsh1
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1/26/2016 1:28:01 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 1:07:24 AM, Forever23 wrote:
I thing that the president and mods (Max, Bsh, Flame, BoT) really need to find a certain balance. They need to make sure that the votes are good and that the people don't get discourages. It is really annoying to go and write out 6 pages worth RFD for one debate and I think that many potential voters prefer not to do that.

You do understand, right, since I don't think you do, that I am not a moderator and have no moderation powers? I do not decide what votes are or are not removed. I do not set moderation policy either.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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1/26/2016 1:29:37 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 12:16:45 AM, famousdebater wrote:
At 1/25/2016 11:38:18 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 1/25/2016 11:36:37 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/25/2016 10:23:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Casting a good vote is really not that hard, and it really doesn't require that much depth. I think the issue is that people get one or two votes removed and just lose confidence or stop voting altogether. I think it might be productive to offer voting training to help address this problem.

Not really, for most debates, in order to give a good vote you need to actually go in-depth. Unless, you can show me some super short votes that are sufficient.

You need to cover the key issues. A solid paragraph is oftentimes enough, but 2 sentences for a 3 round or 4 round debate? That is almost always insufficient. The point is, you don't need to write an essay to vote, which is the misconception.

The problem is, with 4/5 round debates, it is extremely difficult to write a short RFD for without it being removed.

I think that is more because people don't know what to include than it is with writing a brief RFD.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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sadolite
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1/26/2016 1:45:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Back to the wild west days
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
thett3
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1/26/2016 1:49:16 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Cliff.stamp was recognized as one of the most prolific voters on the site. He constantly voted on debates and made an effort to ensure that no debate with without a vote. He was beloved by the community and missed by many, including Airmax. What's hilarious is that he awarded his points in a unique style where he would score a debate like 4:3 con or 5:2 pro, or whatever. If he came back, far from being welcomed he would get vote banned. Think about that.

One of my votes just got removed for giving too many points to the side that didn't forfeit twice. It was not a popular debate and I was the only vote, and whiteflame apparently didn't think it was a good idea to throw a one point vote Cons way for actually sticking out the debate. He would rather let it tie than let my vote stand. If I hadn't benevolently asked my minions to vote on it it likely would've remained a tie. How often do yall think this happens? I would bet a lot.

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#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Forever23
Posts: 988
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1/26/2016 2:01:46 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 1:28:01 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 1/26/2016 1:07:24 AM, Forever23 wrote:
I thing that the president and mods (Max, Bsh, Flame, BoT) really need to find a certain balance. They need to make sure that the votes are good and that the people don't get discourages. It is really annoying to go and write out 6 pages worth RFD for one debate and I think that many potential voters prefer not to do that.

You do understand, right, since I don't think you do, that I am not a moderator and have no moderation powers? I do not decide what votes are or are not removed. I do not set moderation policy either.

No you do not. But cant you suggest new voting standards?
Forever23
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1/26/2016 2:03:23 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/26/2016 1:13:16 AM, whiteflame wrote:
At 1/26/2016 1:07:24 AM, Forever23 wrote:
I thing that the president and mods (Max, Bsh, Flame, BoT) really need to find a certain balance. They need to make sure that the votes are good and that the people don't get discourages. It is really annoying to go and write out 6 pages worth RFD for one debate and I think that many potential voters prefer not to do that.

Someone mentioned this earlier, but the 6 page long RFD is absolutely not required by any stretch of the imagination. No lengthy RFD is ever required except if the debate is on the new standards. If it's still on the old ones (as almost all of them are), then there's no need to even push past the 1000 character limit in practically any debate.

I think that the voting standards should be lowered to simply the level where you shortly say what arguments were introduced and and which were refuted. Simple as that. It will make things easier than now but there will still be certain requirements.

I'm not sure if you understand the standards. A vote that does exactly what you just stated would meet the basic standards. I've passed many votes by that have done just that. Are you under the perception that more is required?

lol yes I think so. I usually write out 2 page RFDs on google docs and I... Guess I am.