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The hilarity of 'vote-decided' debates.

Fuwelius
Posts: 9
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2/26/2016 6:39:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
You think because the majority agrees with you, you won a debate?

Well on this website and in almost the entire debating community of the world this is true.

It is undeniable that only the minority of a group of people will be the most intelligent among them, thus it is stupid to think that the majority will always be on the correct side or even know how to judge debates well.

Even the 'select judge' method is ridiculous as it's an oligarchy fo old users based on no skill-criteria whatsoever. If you vote a lot and are not too lazy with your RFd character count (type a lot in justifying yoru votes even if what you type is nonsense) you can easily become a judge over time.

Restricting voting to high Elo on a site where you get to high Elo by being popular and debating less popular members consistently, is amusing at best.

In fact, if voting is truly skill based why is there no mass-spread rfd/vote appreciation mechanism? Why can't you thumbs up or thumbs down votes? You are literally ranking people best who side with the majority a lot, that's really not hard to do consistently just stall towards the end of the voting period and post what eh majority are picking.

I find it hilarious that people think you can win debates, you think making many people nod their heads makes your side the correct one? That proves nothing. All revolutionary debaters began on the side of the minority and by the logic of this website 'were terrible debaters since the majority agreed with their opponents even after debates.

You think Mikal is such an amazing debater for having such high Elo? Why? He can pick on unpopular people over and over? The moment he stands up to another popular member like bluesteel he runs with his tail between his legs. He only can beat other popular members if he is doing a troll or joke debate like 'hottest [gender]' or childish 'rap battles' where you don't even rap about a topic but literally just diss the other person. Personal attack is the worst way to win a debate but is adored in such battled, why is he getting increased Elo at debating for being good at rap battling? This entire system is corrupt.
If life was easy, we'd get to the boss level (death) too soon.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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2/26/2016 6:56:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Hi. You don't know me, but there may still be people here who do.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

DDO (Formerly DDC) has gone through so many transformations and rebellions that I personally find it absurd that you're complaining about this. Did you know we started out with a 1 point voting system? Did you know there was a civil war that nearly demolished the site because of vote bombing? I was around before RFDs had a name. The turmoil and the uproar that led to mandating RFDs came about through the blood, sweat, and tears of numerous individuals who worked tirelessly to change this site for the better, to fight unilateral vote-bombing, multi-accounters, and voting blocs.

Unfortunately, there is no official historian for this site, and I am retired. But let me leave you with this: If you want to make a real difference, vote often and stop worrying about where you are on the leaderboard. We're not here to chase glory, we're here to debate. Obsessing over your renown and whatnot will only distract you from participating as best you can. Nobody on the leaderboard cares much about their ranking. Doing so is the primary reason why you won't get up there. Not lack of popularity.

Believe me. After a while, you'll be begging to lose and lose often, because you'll find that the only useful RFDs you get are the ones from your losses.

And as a side note, the person at the top of that leaderboard deserves his spot. I was here for his rise and can attest to his ability. Don't let envy be your primary emotion here.
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imabench
Posts: 21,230
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2/26/2016 7:29:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/26/2016 6:39:48 PM, Fuwelius wrote:

Why is he getting increased Elo at debating for being good at rap battling? This entire system is corrupt.

This sounds exactly like a rant someone would make if they havent won a single debate
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

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YYW
Posts: 36,392
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2/26/2016 7:38:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/26/2016 7:06:50 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
That was the most unanticipated post I believe I've seen the entire time I've been on this site.

Nice to see you checking in.

x2
Tsar of DDO
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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2/26/2016 7:44:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/26/2016 7:38:12 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2016 7:06:50 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
That was the most unanticipated post I believe I've seen the entire time I've been on this site.

Nice to see you checking in.

x2
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
lannan13
Posts: 23,111
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2/26/2016 10:09:50 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Fist pump for public shoutout.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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lannan13
Posts: 23,111
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2/26/2016 10:13:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/26/2016 6:56:39 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Hi. You don't know me, but there may still be people here who do.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

DDO (Formerly DDC) has gone through so many transformations and rebellions that I personally find it absurd that you're complaining about this. Did you know we started out with a 1 point voting system? Did you know there was a civil war that nearly demolished the site because of vote bombing? I was around before RFDs had a name. The turmoil and the uproar that led to mandating RFDs came about through the blood, sweat, and tears of numerous individuals who worked tirelessly to change this site for the better, to fight unilateral vote-bombing, multi-accounters, and voting blocs.

Unfortunately, there is no official historian for this site, and I am retired. But let me leave you with this: If you want to make a real difference, vote often and stop worrying about where you are on the leaderboard. We're not here to chase glory, we're here to debate. Obsessing over your renown and whatnot will only distract you from participating as best you can. Nobody on the leaderboard cares much about their ranking. Doing so is the primary reason why you won't get up there. Not lack of popularity.

Believe me. After a while, you'll be begging to lose and lose often, because you'll find that the only useful RFDs you get are the ones from your losses.

And as a side note, the person at the top of that leaderboard deserves his spot. I was here for his rise and can attest to his ability. Don't let envy be your primary emotion here.

I couldn't agree more. Though you have been here longer than I have, I have still seen many of the struggles of vote bombs and remember the constant BSing of how a good vote would have to turn out to just be a counter-vote bomb in order to fully make the debate fair again. It destroyed voting and great feed back as voting just turned into a p*ssing contest. There's still the option for a RFDless debate and unlimitted time, but these are a whole lot less common than they used to be. Despite stricter rules, this has created a greater level of voting and makes having debates worthwhile as you are getting valuable feedback from these users.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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lannan13
Posts: 23,111
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2/26/2016 10:13:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/26/2016 7:44:42 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/26/2016 7:38:12 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/26/2016 7:06:50 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
That was the most unanticipated post I believe I've seen the entire time I've been on this site.

Nice to see you checking in.

x2
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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BlazingRodent
Posts: 1,044
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2/26/2016 10:20:34 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Non-judge voting is not much better. Random noobs can mess up your debate with terrible votes. Though I will say that lately it's been less of a problem, but only because it was replaced with a new issue, which is that we are running out of voters on the site.
lannan13
Posts: 23,111
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2/26/2016 10:23:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/26/2016 6:39:48 PM, Fuwelius wrote:
You think because the majority agrees with you, you won a debate?

That's not how it works. It's all about debate skill and argument based. Granted that there are a few idiots out there who do nothing but vote bomb all day long, but that doesn't mean that's how everyone does things.

Well on this website and in almost the entire debating community of the world this is true.

How so?

It is undeniable that only the minority of a group of people will be the most intelligent among them, thus it is stupid to think that the majority will always be on the correct side or even know how to judge debates well.

Not true, you just need to know who to ask when you have people vote. There's a DDO Voter's Union that's dedicated to fair and balanced votes on key debates. I, myself, go through the debates, when I have time despite not having much of it as of late, go through a large portion of debates and give them a good vote so they don't go voteless.

Even the 'select judge' method is ridiculous as it's an oligarchy fo old users based on no skill-criteria whatsoever. If you vote a lot and are not too lazy with your RFd character count (type a lot in justifying yoru votes even if what you type is nonsense) you can easily become a judge over time.

The Mods actually will take those votes down. If you are lacking an RFD then these don't need to be there. Simply report them then Whiteflame or BOT will come and take them down.

Restricting voting to high Elo on a site where you get to high Elo by being popular and debating less popular members consistently, is amusing at best.

Not true, higher ELO means that they have debated longer, granted there exceptions, such as myself, but that doesn't mean that since they have a higher level that they are unfit to debate. People with higher ELO generally equates to a better vote compared to someone who just got done with 3 lost debates who put no effort into them. Which has happened before.

In fact, if voting is truly skill based why is there no mass-spread rfd/vote appreciation mechanism? Why can't you thumbs up or thumbs down votes? You are literally ranking people best who side with the majority a lot, that's really not hard to do consistently just stall towards the end of the voting period and post what eh majority are picking.

If that's the case just use the debate's +/-1 system.

I find it hilarious that people think you can win debates, you think making many people nod their heads makes your side the correct one? That proves nothing. All revolutionary debaters began on the side of the minority and by the logic of this website 'were terrible debaters since the majority agreed with their opponents even after debates.

Then please explain the research done by imabench that completely discredits this statement.

You think Mikal is such an amazing debater for having such high Elo? Why? He can pick on unpopular people over and over? The moment he stands up to another popular member like bluesteel he runs with his tail between his legs. He only can beat other popular members if he is doing a troll or joke debate like 'hottest [gender]' or childish 'rap battles' where you don't even rap about a topic but literally just diss the other person. Personal attack is the worst way to win a debate but is adored in such battled, why is he getting increased Elo at debating for being good at rap battling? This entire system is corrupt.

lol, Mikal a good debater. Granted he has some good debates, but you're talking about a guy who 'rapped' his way to the top. Of course he still has some good debates.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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2/27/2016 3:23:28 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
The OP is wrong on three grounds.

1- The side that's right isn't more likely than not the minority... The Majority is right just as often, if not more so at times. This premise simply isn't factual enough to make a point off of.

2- The voters aren't voting based on who they agree with, but with who they find debated better. So you don't win because more people agreed with you. Otherwise I would have lost all of my Gay Marriage debates...

3- A False Cross-over... If it were true that the majority is almost always wrong, that would only be for beliefs on major topics (ie if Abortion is right, or if Socialism is better). It doesn't imply that the premise crosses over into all circumstances were a "majority" and "minority" exist, such as who voting on which debater held up their end of the BOP better or whose impacts were stronger... The two circumstances, while possessing a "majority/minority," are too different.
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