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Nay sayers

TUF
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3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/10/2016 4:24:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

Go for it. What are the threads that inspired this topic?
TUF
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3/10/2016 4:29:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:24:07 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

Go for it. What are the threads that inspired this topic?

Like half the threads I ever created over the past 6 years that got shot down instantaneously.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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3/10/2016 4:35:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Don't get me wrong; there are good reasons to disagree with an idea. I am talking about the people who go out of their way to make the idea sound so horrible, and don't always use the best logic and reasoning behind it. Then you got 5 people saying this won't work but no one really bothering to explain why. They are just right because there are more of them then there are of you, and they are all echoing the same thing, because of some inner urge to reject the proposal as soon as they see it.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
EndarkenedRationalist
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3/10/2016 4:37:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:35:59 PM, TUF wrote:
Don't get me wrong; there are good reasons to disagree with an idea. I am talking about the people who go out of their way to make the idea sound so horrible, and don't always use the best logic and reasoning behind it. Then you got 5 people saying this won't work but no one really bothering to explain why. They are just right because there are more of them then there are of you, and they are all echoing the same thing, because of some inner urge to reject the proposal as soon as they see it.

Is your sig parodying Taylor Swift?
TUF
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3/10/2016 4:42:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:37:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:35:59 PM, TUF wrote:
Don't get me wrong; there are good reasons to disagree with an idea. I am talking about the people who go out of their way to make the idea sound so horrible, and don't always use the best logic and reasoning behind it. Then you got 5 people saying this won't work but no one really bothering to explain why. They are just right because there are more of them then there are of you, and they are all echoing the same thing, because of some inner urge to reject the proposal as soon as they see it.

Is your sig parodying Taylor Swift?

It's Rihanna. Get it right! ;-)
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/10/2016 4:53:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

This is an astute observation. What also annoys me is when spectators intrude on forum conversations to place their support behind one party, without justifying their intrusion with the contribution of a new point/argument/qualification. It turns what should be an objective and cordial discussion into a base, tribalistic contest. And it's always the same people who do things like that.... the same repeat offenders.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
TUF
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3/10/2016 5:00:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:53:13 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

This is an astute observation. What also annoys me is when spectators intrude on forum conversations to place their support behind one party, without justifying their intrusion with the contribution of a new point/argument/qualification. It turns what should be an objective and cordial discussion into a base, tribalistic contest. And it's always the same people who do things like that.... the same repeat offenders.

Yeah this is pretty much my issue, I think you worded it a bit better.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/10/2016 5:03:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:35:59 PM, TUF wrote:
Don't get me wrong; there are good reasons to disagree with an idea. I am talking about the people who go out of their way to make the idea sound so horrible, and don't always use the best logic and reasoning behind it. Then you got 5 people saying this won't work but no one really bothering to explain why. They are just right because there are more of them then there are of you, and they are all echoing the same thing, because of some inner urge to reject the proposal as soon as they see it.

Give me examples of where this was done and by who and on which thread. This is just really vague and I have no idea precisely what you are referring to.
PetersSmith
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3/10/2016 5:03:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

I respectfully disagree with this scrub Lord.
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MattTheDreamer
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3/10/2016 5:06:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.
Perhaps it's simply that they feel that positive feedback is not required. I've seen multiple threads where I agree completely with the OP. At that point, there is no real reason to add anything. The OP has summed up my thoughts so well that its left me with nothing to say. I also find positive feedback without addressing the argument at all rather grating, as if the person has just wasted a precious post. (Although. I am guilty of this sometimes.)
TUF
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3/10/2016 5:21:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 5:03:36 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:35:59 PM, TUF wrote:
Don't get me wrong; there are good reasons to disagree with an idea. I am talking about the people who go out of their way to make the idea sound so horrible, and don't always use the best logic and reasoning behind it. Then you got 5 people saying this won't work but no one really bothering to explain why. They are just right because there are more of them then there are of you, and they are all echoing the same thing, because of some inner urge to reject the proposal as soon as they see it.

Give me examples of where this was done and by who and on which thread. This is just really vague and I have no idea precisely what you are referring to.

It seems like you are baiting for something, and I am not sure why. This is not a passive aggressive slash to any sort of recent event if that is what you are thinking this is. It's an observation about how people tend to behave when they see a statement in an OP, about how they are already forming rebuttals, and how those opinions just solidify against the idea as they argue it more and more. In other words, taking the easy position.

I am not going to call anyone out, because I am not creating this thread because of any particular event, more over just a build up of events that lead me to this belief, which is why I will be calling them out as I see them.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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3/10/2016 5:28:28 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 5:06:43 PM, MattTheDreamer wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.
Perhaps it's simply that they feel that positive feedback is not required. I've seen multiple threads where I agree completely with the OP. At that point, there is no real reason to add anything. The OP has summed up my thoughts so well that its left me with nothing to say. I also find positive feedback without addressing the argument at all rather grating, as if the person has just wasted a precious post. (Although. I am guilty of this sometimes.)

This is a decent point I will admit. I mean if your idea is asking for feedback, then negative feedback on the idea that is discussed in a productive way isn't really "negative" at that point, and I wouldn't call a person a nay sayer.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Maikuru
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3/10/2016 5:49:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

Great post. I was just talking about this the other day, but in another context. Essentially, presenting an opinion in a public setting opens you up for criticism, so it's helpful to think about 1. your audience and 2. your intent. This is a debate site, so presenting a position, especially a controversial one, is likely to draw some ire. Add on to that the ease with which the forum format allows for terse, unsupported, or flippant remarks, and it is quick and easy to show your disagreement with a topic right away. As someone else rightly pointed out, individuals who agree with your position may not feel the need to chime in. As such, you are often left with an OP that presents an opinion, a string of negative responses which reinforce each other, and a deflated or tense conversation, if any exists at all.

One strategy you see in classrooms, especially concerning controversial topics, is to start the conversation simply by presenting a topic or asking a question. See my thread on hate groups in the US: http://www.debate.org....

This has the potential for polarizing the forum users and/or creating arguments, but by not presenting a strong opinion in the OP, it increases the odds of an actual conversation occurring. Of course, people who disagree with their presumed intent of the thread will still provide negative comments, but they do so without a direct target and are thus more amenable to an honest discourse. At least, that is the hope.
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Vaarka
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3/10/2016 5:51:53 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/10/2016 6:09:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 5:21:18 PM, TUF wrote:
It seems like you are baiting for something, and I am not sure why. This is not a passive aggressive slash to any sort of recent event if that is what you are thinking this is. It's an observation about how people tend to behave when they see a statement in an OP, about how they are already forming rebuttals, and how those opinions just solidify against the idea as they argue it more and more. In other words, taking the easy position.

I am not going to call anyone out, because I am not creating this thread because of any particular event, more over just a build up of events that lead me to this belief, which is why I will be calling them out as I see them.

I'm not baiting for anything. I'm reading your post thinking what on earth are you talking about? I tend to find very vague posts non-useful. If you illustrated with examples showing that in thread #1, the OP said this and everyone disagreed, and in thread #2, the OP said that and everyone disagreed, and in thread #3, the OP said something else and everyone still disagreed, and that this is looking like a pattern, I'd take that under consideration. You are making a really vague point without evidence with some type of "I'm-not-going-to-call-anyone-out" policy. But it doesn't matter if you point to specifics because it's not really something that people would dislike. For instance I wouldn't mind if you pointed out one of my posts and said that this disagreed with the OP.
bsh1
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3/10/2016 6:14:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

Ironically, I agree with this.
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Blade-of-Truth
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3/10/2016 6:40:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

That's likely due to these proposed changes going against the status quo, like any new change proposed for any system. Of course there will be nay-sayers. Now, does that mean that there will always be more nay-sayers than those who agree with the proposed change? No. I think that specifically depends on the quality and value of the change being proposed. Perhaps, and I mean this in no offense, the threads you are speaking about just weren't that good of ideas. I can certainly think of some proposals that have received wide-spread support such as the recently introduced "opt-in" voting standards. So, ultimately, it most likely just depends on the proposed change.

There are indeed those who also do try to attack the proposal without reading too much into it, or as you said, start arguing against the proposal based on the title of the OP alone. Luckily, it's usually the ones who flesh these discussions out that either assist in it's approval and application or its demise as a proposed change. Those who don't know what they are talking about are usually exposed pretty fast and have their opinion devalued by anyone who has fully read the proposed change. So, while this is indeed an issue, I don't think it's one that has ever actually stopped a good proposal from being passed and accepted by the community.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

That's the fault of the OP for letting the nay-sayers get to them. Do you think any great inventor or proponent of change has never been met with opposition? It's the great ones that understand that they have to keep going no matter how much opposition they face. We should never allow nay-sayers to stop us from proposing changes that we truly believe in.

With that said, sometimes there are truly bad ideas that are proposed and in those cases - the nay-sayers provide a utility service in shutting down those poor ideas quickly.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Not a bad idea. Someone either supporting or negating a proposed change should always bring their best points to the table.
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TUF
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3/10/2016 7:37:37 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 6:09:00 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/10/2016 5:21:18 PM, TUF wrote:
It seems like you are baiting for something, and I am not sure why. This is not a passive aggressive slash to any sort of recent event if that is what you are thinking this is. It's an observation about how people tend to behave when they see a statement in an OP, about how they are already forming rebuttals, and how those opinions just solidify against the idea as they argue it more and more. In other words, taking the easy position.

I am not going to call anyone out, because I am not creating this thread because of any particular event, more over just a build up of events that lead me to this belief, which is why I will be calling them out as I see them.

I'm not baiting for anything. I'm reading your post thinking what on earth are you talking about? I tend to find very vague posts non-useful. If you illustrated with examples showing that in thread #1, the OP said this and everyone disagreed, and in thread #2, the OP said that and everyone disagreed, and in thread #3, the OP said something else and everyone still disagreed, and that this is looking like a pattern, I'd take that under consideration. You are making a really vague point without evidence with some type of "I'm-not-going-to-call-anyone-out" policy. But it doesn't matter if you point to specifics because it's not really something that people would dislike. For instance I wouldn't mind if you pointed out one of my posts and said that this disagreed with the OP.

It's purposely vague, which is clear in the "I'll call them as I see them" part. I also don't see how examples are required as what I am saying is pretty straight forward. I mean yeah I could call people out from old threads to prove a point but why is that necessary if you grasp the concept of what I am saying already? Unless you are asking if it's really an issue which others seem to seem to think it is. Or I could challenge you to post an idea or make a thread somewhere on a neutral or different opinion in the society or political forum and you can count how many nay sayers you get.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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3/10/2016 10:38:56 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 5:49:22 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

Great post. I was just talking about this the other day, but in another context. Essentially, presenting an opinion in a public setting opens you up for criticism, so it's helpful to think about 1. your audience and 2. your intent. This is a debate site, so presenting a position, especially a controversial one, is likely to draw some ire. Add on to that the ease with which the forum format allows for terse, unsupported, or flippant remarks, and it is quick and easy to show your disagreement with a topic right away. As someone else rightly pointed out, individuals who agree with your position may not feel the need to chime in. As such, you are often left with an OP that presents an opinion, a string of negative responses which reinforce each other, and a deflated or tense conversation, if any exists at all.

One strategy you see in classrooms, especially concerning controversial topics, is to start the conversation simply by presenting a topic or asking a question. See my thread on hate groups in the US: http://www.debate.org....

This has the potential for polarizing the forum users and/or creating arguments, but by not presenting a strong opinion in the OP, it increases the odds of an actual conversation occurring. Of course, people who disagree with their presumed intent of the thread will still provide negative comments, but they do so without a direct target and are thus more amenable to an honest discourse. At least, that is the hope.

I like the approach to the discussion in that thread, very strategical.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
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3/10/2016 10:39:35 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 6:14:43 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

Ironically, I agree with this.

Why is that ironic, just out of curiosity?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
YYW
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3/10/2016 10:49:52 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

This is an excellent idea.
Tsar of DDO
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3/10/2016 10:51:03 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 6:40:25 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

That's likely due to these proposed changes going against the status quo, like any new change proposed for any system. Of course there will be nay-sayers. Now, does that mean that there will always be more nay-sayers than those who agree with the proposed change? No. I think that specifically depends on the quality and value of the change being proposed. Perhaps, and I mean this in no offense, the threads you are speaking about just weren't that good of ideas. I can certainly think of some proposals that have received wide-spread support such as the recently introduced "opt-in" voting standards. So, ultimately, it most likely just depends on the proposed change.

Oh yeah I understand there is diversity and differences in this based on the proposed topics. There's some things that are just hard to dis-agree with. If I made a thread entitled "Rape is immoral" I am sure most sane people would agree with me. But if I make a thread saying that there is a problem with the voting system, people will see the thread title and I feel like in most cases will just be prepping themselves up to argue against whatever your proposed changes are. Then you will get a few more that will make reason-less comments to back them up, and soon there's a bandwagon, etc. It's just that general attitude that someone needs to point out every little thing wrong with your plan, and completely over-look the problem you are trying to solve in their haste to be right.

There are indeed those who also do try to attack the proposal without reading too much into it, or as you said, start arguing against the proposal based on the title of the OP alone. Luckily, it's usually the ones who flesh these discussions out that either assist in it's approval and application or its demise as a proposed change. Those who don't know what they are talking about are usually exposed pretty fast and have their opinion devalued by anyone who has fully read the proposed change. So, while this is indeed an issue, I don't think it's one that has ever actually stopped a good proposal from being passed and accepted by the community.

I feel like mindless peer pressure from "Veteran members" actually is a problem. Almost like "I've been here for so long and people know me so I can just bandwagon this one and no one will question me because I am prominent". Maybe I am exaggerating.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

That's the fault of the OP for letting the nay-sayers get to them. Do you think any great inventor or proponent of change has never been met with opposition? It's the great ones that understand that they have to keep going no matter how much opposition they face. We should never allow nay-sayers to stop us from proposing changes that we truly believe in.

Sure I am behind this, and as I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't call every disagreement a nay sayer. Like if you acknowledge that the plan has a good purpose, but then suggest some changes to it, or offer a different perspective to the problem, other than just trying to put down the position with every bit of spent energy you can muster up.

With that said, sometimes there are truly bad ideas that are proposed and in those cases - the nay-sayers provide a utility service in shutting down those poor ideas quickly.

Sure. I would probably nay say a topic from ADOL without much regret.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
YYW
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3/10/2016 10:53:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
The pattern that I've observed is that there are specific people who seem to get off being nay-sayers for specific people.

I have a following of "groupies" in this regard. Among them are: bsh1, 00ike, and Bossyburrito.
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ESocialBookworm
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3/11/2016 12:04:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 10:53:45 PM, YYW wrote:
The pattern that I've observed is that there are specific people who seem to get off being nay-sayers for specific people.

I have a following of "groupies" in this regard. Among them are: bsh1, 00ike, and Bossyburrito.

BOSSY'S BACK?
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

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In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
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3/11/2016 12:08:45 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/11/2016 12:04:25 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/10/2016 10:53:45 PM, YYW wrote:
The pattern that I've observed is that there are specific people who seem to get off being nay-sayers for specific people.

I have a following of "groupies" in this regard. Among them are: bsh1, 00ike, and Bossyburrito.

BOSSY'S BACK?

For the time being. Idk if he will stay, though.
Tsar of DDO
ESocialBookworm
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3/11/2016 12:27:17 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/11/2016 12:08:45 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/11/2016 12:04:25 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/10/2016 10:53:45 PM, YYW wrote:
The pattern that I've observed is that there are specific people who seem to get off being nay-sayers for specific people.

I have a following of "groupies" in this regard. Among them are: bsh1, 00ike, and Bossyburrito.

BOSSY'S BACK?

For the time being. Idk if he will stay, though.

WHERE???
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
bsh1
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3/11/2016 12:38:51 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 10:39:35 PM, TUF wrote:
At 3/10/2016 6:14:43 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

Ironically, I agree with this.

Why is that ironic, just out of curiosity?

Because you're OP is about people disagreeing with OPs, but I agreed with your OPs.
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3/11/2016 3:19:22 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/11/2016 12:38:51 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/10/2016 10:39:35 PM, TUF wrote:
At 3/10/2016 6:14:43 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

Ironically, I agree with this.

Why is that ironic, just out of curiosity?

Because you're OP is about people disagreeing with OPs, but I agreed with your OPs.

Oooh, okay I gotcha.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
imabench
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3/11/2016 5:20:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/10/2016 4:06:06 PM, TUF wrote:
Are people generally more likely to oppose the title and thread creator of an OP? I feel like when I read posts where someone offers up an idea for change, or poses an idea in a thread, it seems to attract more nay-sayers then it does positive feedback. It almost feels like people are automatically debating the idea and figuring out ways it won"t work after just reading the title. I know this isn"t always the case, but it"s something I"ve always found kind of annoying about DDO.

What"s worse is that psychologically seems to make a naysayer adamantly against the thing they might have only started out causally dis-agreeing with. It"s like they"ve made a point that the OP will obviously defend against, and now they want to go to bigger lengths than what they probably even originally cared about to defend their position. I get that it"s a debate site, and stating an opinion will likely get rebuttals; it"s in our nature, and I too am guilty of being a nay-sayer. But after a point you almost never want to propose ideas or offer up suggestions because you know 5 or 6 nay sayers will instantly pounce on the idea and shut it down.

I think I am going to make more of a point of calling out nay sayers. It's on them to prove they aren't being a nay sayer.

Alright, come at me, nay-sayers.

It probably depends on the forum..... I wouldnt be skeptical of someone claiming this happens to them all the time in the Religion or Politics section since those forums are warzones at any given moment
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