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What makes a "bad" argument?

lamerde
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3/12/2016 4:14:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
It seems that for some people, any argument they disagree with is automatically a bad argument. If this were the case, there would never be debate, people would never change their minds on anything, and people would not experience personal growth.

So what makes a bad argument? What are the components? Does an argument being (in your opinion) wrong automatically make it bad?
Why I ignore YYW:
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http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
UtherPenguin
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3/12/2016 4:21:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Any large dependence or basis in fallacious logic (Strawmen, appeals to emotion, et cetera) is enough to make an argument "bad". Personally though, I hate any usage of overgeneralisations.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
famousdebater
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3/12/2016 4:22:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:14:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
It seems that for some people, any argument they disagree with is automatically a bad argument. If this were the case, there would never be debate, people would never change their minds on anything, and people would not experience personal growth.

It seems the same with votes too. When a voter votes for a user they praise them and call them a good voter. But when that user votes against that debater on another debate they call them a bias voter that it is bad just because they disagreed that the debater one that debate.

So what makes a bad argument? What are the components? Does an argument being (in your opinion) wrong automatically make it bad?

Just a list that I've compiled quickly,

- Lack of sources when sources are necessary (ie. for statistics).
- When the impact of arguments aren't explained.
- Less than 2 arguments.
- No conclusion or summary of arguments.
- Plagiarism (obviously).
- Irrelevant arguments.
- Incoherence.
- Bad spelling and grammar
- Rude conduct.

There's a load of stuff but that's all I've got off of the top of my head.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
YYW
Posts: 36,289
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3/12/2016 4:22:43 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:14:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
It seems that for some people, any argument they disagree with is automatically a bad argument. If this were the case, there would never be debate, people would never change their minds on anything, and people would not experience personal growth.

So what makes a bad argument? What are the components?

There are plenty of reasons why an argument is bad. Perhaps the person saying it has it poorly structured. Perhaps the argument itself isn't coherent. Perhaps the argument is being made for the purpose of silencing other people. Perhaps adopting the policy that the speaker is proposing would lead to disastrous consequences.

Does an argument being (in your opinion) wrong automatically make it bad?

Suppose for example you had a group of people arguing that ubiquitous acts of one group are in fact manifestations of invidious racism at the expense of another group, and that argument is used for the purpose of redefining social ethical norms. But, the ubiquity of these specific manifestations of invidious racism makes it impossible for the former group to reasonably predict what is or is not a "manifestation of invidious racism" and thus they're essentially walking through a mine field.

That breaks down the possibility of reasonable social interaction between members of the former and latter groups; and destroys the foundation of the potentiality of there even being an "ethic" to govern social interaction, because for such standards to exist, there has to be a category of things that are ethical and another for things that are unethical that is divided by something more than the emotional reactions of the latter group. So, an argument for such a system of social norms grounded on a concept like "microaggressions" is stupid on its face.
Tsar of DDO
n7
Posts: 1,360
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3/12/2016 4:22:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
If an argument is poorly presented and poorly justified, I consider it a bad argument.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
famousdebater
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3/12/2016 4:24:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
and of course ad hominem, ad lapidem, ad igoratum, shifting the BOP and all those logical fallacies.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
YYW
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3/12/2016 4:32:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:14:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
It seems that for some people, any argument they disagree with is automatically a bad argument. If this were the case, there would never be debate, people would never change their minds on anything, and people would not experience personal growth.

So what makes a bad argument? What are the components? Does an argument being (in your opinion) wrong automatically make it bad?

Although frequently, the best example of an automatically bad argument comes from people who attempt to discredit the speaker without even touching the substance of an argument. You make use of this terrible method of argumentation with regularity, as is generally evidenced by pretty much every interaction you have had with anyone who disagrees with you in the past two years.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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3/12/2016 4:33:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:14:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
It seems that for some people, any argument they disagree with is automatically a bad argument. If this were the case, there would never be debate, people would never change their minds on anything, and people would not experience personal growth.

So what makes a bad argument? What are the components? Does an argument being (in your opinion) wrong automatically make it bad?

A further example of a terrible argument is one in which a person in response to content they don't like has an emotional breakdown in response to the arguments they don't like, such as when people say things that sound like they came from the mouths of conspiracy theorists like David Ike and accuse others of using "subliminal messages" to "intentionally target" others.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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3/12/2016 4:39:11 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Another great example of a terrible argument would be one in which a person feigns victimhood for the purpose of manipulating those around her into supporting her perspective.
Tsar of DDO
CodingSource
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3/12/2016 4:42:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:21:26 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Any large dependence or basis in fallacious logic (Strawmen, appeals to emotion, et cetera) is enough to make an argument "bad". Personally though, I hate any usage of overgeneralisations.

+1
If computers have no doors or fences, who needs Windows and Gates?

I have a 10-0-0 debate record with an ELO ranking of 2,814. From 610th during my first two-week stay, I am now 326th in the Debates Leaderboard: http://www.debate.org...
ESocialBookworm
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3/12/2016 4:42:50 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
Another great example of a terrible argument would be one in which a person feigns victimhood for the purpose of manipulating those around her into supporting her perspective.

Okay. You caught me. *throws in towel*
I won't try to guilt you into giving me your last piece of chocolate cake.
*runs away crying*
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
YYW
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3/12/2016 4:43:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:42:50 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
Another great example of a terrible argument would be one in which a person feigns victimhood for the purpose of manipulating those around her into supporting her perspective.

Okay. You caught me. *throws in towel*
I won't try to guilt you into giving me your last piece of chocolate cake.
*runs away crying*

You can always have the last piece of cake ;)
Tsar of DDO
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,364
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3/12/2016 4:44:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:43:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:42:50 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
Another great example of a terrible argument would be one in which a person feigns victimhood for the purpose of manipulating those around her into supporting her perspective.

Okay. You caught me. *throws in towel*
I won't try to guilt you into giving me your last piece of chocolate cake.
*runs away crying*

You can always have the last piece of cake ;)

YAY! :D
*restrains self from making an icing joke before Rosa attacks me*
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
Rosalie
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3/12/2016 4:49:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:44:37 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:43:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:42:50 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
Another great example of a terrible argument would be one in which a person feigns victimhood for the purpose of manipulating those around her into supporting her perspective.

Okay. You caught me. *throws in towel*
I won't try to guilt you into giving me your last piece of chocolate cake.
*runs away crying*

You can always have the last piece of cake ;)

YAY! :D
*restrains self from making an icing joke before Rosa attacks me*

Didn't we have a talk about this....
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump

Officially Mrs. 16Kadams 8-30-16
Rosalie
Posts: 4,612
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3/12/2016 4:50:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:43:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:42:50 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
Another great example of a terrible argument would be one in which a person feigns victimhood for the purpose of manipulating those around her into supporting her perspective.

Okay. You caught me. *throws in towel*
I won't try to guilt you into giving me your last piece of chocolate cake.
*runs away crying*

You can always have the last piece of cake ;)

*ahem*
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump

Officially Mrs. 16Kadams 8-30-16
lamerde
Posts: 1,416
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3/12/2016 4:56:31 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:21:26 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
Any large dependence or basis in fallacious logic (Strawmen, appeals to emotion, et cetera) is enough to make an argument "bad". Personally though, I hate any usage of overgeneralisations.

I agree.

I think it's important to, not only call out fallacious reasoning, but also to explain what makes the argument fallacious.

If someone makes a strawman argument, "that's a bad argument" would be a poor response to it. Why say that at all and not just say "this is a strawman argument"?
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/12/2016 5:01:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:32:03 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:14:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
It seems that for some people, any argument they disagree with is automatically a bad argument. If this were the case, there would never be debate, people would never change their minds on anything, and people would not experience personal growth.

So what makes a bad argument? What are the components? Does an argument being (in your opinion) wrong automatically make it bad?

Although frequently, the best example of an automatically bad argument comes from people who attempt to discredit the speaker without even touching the substance of an argument. You make use of this terrible method of argumentation with regularity, as is generally evidenced by pretty much every interaction you have had with anyone who disagrees with you in the past two years.

You really are obsessed with her, aren't you?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rosalie
Posts: 4,612
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3/12/2016 5:01:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
When people get their emotions involved, and claim their "opinion" is correct without supporting their argument with facts.
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump

Officially Mrs. 16Kadams 8-30-16
lamerde
Posts: 1,416
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3/12/2016 5:12:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:01:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

You really are obsessed with her, aren't you?

Thankfully, most of his posts are really long so I can get away with not reading them as I'm skimming through.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
YYW
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3/12/2016 5:21:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:01:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:32:03 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:14:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
It seems that for some people, any argument they disagree with is automatically a bad argument. If this were the case, there would never be debate, people would never change their minds on anything, and people would not experience personal growth.

So what makes a bad argument? What are the components? Does an argument being (in your opinion) wrong automatically make it bad?

Although frequently, the best example of an automatically bad argument comes from people who attempt to discredit the speaker without even touching the substance of an argument. You make use of this terrible method of argumentation with regularity, as is generally evidenced by pretty much every interaction you have had with anyone who disagrees with you in the past two years.

You really are obsessed with her, aren't you?

So responding to people in the forums who ask worthwhile questions makes me obsessed?

I think you're being paranoid.
Tsar of DDO
Deb-8-A-Bull
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3/12/2016 5:21:13 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:14:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
It seems that for some people, any argument they disagree with is automatically a bad argument. If this were the case, there would never be debate, people would never change their minds on anything, and people would not experience personal growth.

So what makes a bad argument? What are the components? Does an argument being (in your opinion) wrong automatically make it bad?

Different languages.
I was at a hotel once I went to go for a swim , I got to the pool and seen the outdoor tables and chairs in the pool . I jumped in and started taking them out . I picked up the 1st chair and a Asian women come running out and started yelling at me, in her language. And I was yelling that I was just getting them out . 10 minute argument.
YYW
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3/12/2016 5:21:30 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 4:50:53 PM, Rosalie wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:43:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:42:50 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
Another great example of a terrible argument would be one in which a person feigns victimhood for the purpose of manipulating those around her into supporting her perspective.

Okay. You caught me. *throws in towel*
I won't try to guilt you into giving me your last piece of chocolate cake.
*runs away crying*

You can always have the last piece of cake ;)

*ahem*

You can also have cake lol
Tsar of DDO
Rosalie
Posts: 4,612
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3/12/2016 5:22:00 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:21:30 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:50:53 PM, Rosalie wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:43:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:42:50 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 3/12/2016 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
Another great example of a terrible argument would be one in which a person feigns victimhood for the purpose of manipulating those around her into supporting her perspective.

Okay. You caught me. *throws in towel*
I won't try to guilt you into giving me your last piece of chocolate cake.
*runs away crying*

You can always have the last piece of cake ;)

*ahem*

You can also have cake lol

Only if it's vanilla..
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump

Officially Mrs. 16Kadams 8-30-16
YYW
Posts: 36,289
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3/12/2016 5:22:04 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Of course neither PCP nor lamerde will respond to anything substantive.

*waits to be called a racist*
Tsar of DDO
lamerde
Posts: 1,416
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3/12/2016 5:26:00 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:21:03 PM, YYW wrote:

So responding to people in the forums who ask worthwhile questions makes me obsessed?

But I thought I was a toxic member. You sure love being around radiation since you're constantly trying to sit at my table.

I think you're being paranoid.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
lamerde
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3/12/2016 5:27:50 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:22:04 PM, YYW wrote:
Of course neither PCP nor lamerde will respond to anything substantive.

*waits to be called a racist*

I don't know why you keep bringing that up when the only person who has called you racist is yourself.

At 9/18/2015 2:33:13 AM, YYW wrote:
And I mean, I used to be a lot less racist than I am now, because the only black people I interacted with were upper class, or middle class at least... but now that I see the filth of our society every day of my life... I can't not be racist. Stereotypes exist for a reason, and I am sympathetic to every cop that has ever had to deal with this kind of sh!t.

http://www.debate.org...
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
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3/12/2016 5:32:45 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:22:04 PM, YYW wrote:
Of course neither PCP nor lamerde will respond to anything substantive.

*waits to be called a racist*

I don't think you realize your arguments (those that attack the actual views and not strawmen) aren't all that substantive to begin with.

*Waits to be called delusional, brainwashed, too stupid to interpret my own experience, etc*

I'm just saying you seriously bring her up every chance you get, even in a thread that literally had nothing to do with your ongoing "feud" or whatever you two have. You could've had a very substantive discussion without even bringing them up. Sounds like obsession.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
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3/12/2016 5:46:10 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:32:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/12/2016 5:22:04 PM, YYW wrote:
Of course neither PCP nor lamerde will respond to anything substantive.

*waits to be called a racist*

I don't think you realize your arguments (those that attack the actual views and not strawmen) aren't all that substantive to begin with.

You're welcome to that view, and that's fine. But again, you're not going to substantively respond to what I've said.

*Waits to be called delusional, brainwashed, too stupid to interpret my own experience, etc*

Not really. We've had a pretty good conversation in another thread, and what's really disappointing is how you walked away after I corrected you when you compared me to a Men's Rights activist.

I mean, that's the level of discourse you're comfortable with and I understand it. But I also understand that there's a finite limit on how much you're able to handle... which is fine. We all have different levels of engagement we're comfortable with.

I'm just saying you seriously bring her up every chance you get, even in a thread that literally had nothing to do with your ongoing "feud" or whatever you two have. You could've had a very substantive discussion without even bringing them up. Sounds like obsession.

Here's the thing: Tulle is really the sole advocate for certain ideas and concepts on the site; and she's a great launching pad for discussion because she brings up very controversial topics that generate much discussion.

Her view is that my participation in those discussions is somehow an elaborate conspiracy against her, as she has indicated in this thread and elsewhere. Now, she's welcome to feel that way and it's not my job to so much respond to paranoid ideations. But the thing is that tulle generates the some of the best threads on the site, which is why I'm happy to see her back.

There is a vibrant and lively discussion to be had, especially, about where the Left is these days, and she's fairly good at identifying the particular fault lines of disagreement among old-school liberals (me, although "old school" is by no means an academic term; I use it mainly for the purpose of illustrating contrast with postmodern liberals) and postmodern liberals.

Now, in her view, I shouldn't be able to participate in those discussions, and she's made that clear. When she has tried and failed in the past to prevent me from doing that, then she goes about talking about her paranoid ideations, and generally feigns victimhood. I'm just not that scary of a guy. I can be an @sshole, and I freely acknowledge that... but I'm not the malevolent dementor that she portrays me as, and people know that because they see what they see.

This is a debate website, and people have spirited disagreements. We can have those spirited disagreements, and we will, and I will continue to post in any thread that sparks my interest regardless of whatever very strange conspiratorial ideas that tulle suffers from. She might need some help with that, but that's not for me to say.
Tsar of DDO
lamerde
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3/12/2016 5:48:41 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:22:04 PM, YYW wrote:
Of course neither PCP nor lamerde will respond to anything substantive.

*waits to be called a racist*

This is interesting because we may get to witness a bad argument in the making.

YYW has said or implied several times that I have called him racist, even though I don't think it's ever happened. When I ask for proof that I've called him racist, he vanishes mysteriously.

So let's try this out.

YYW, when you said "*waits to be called racist*", do you mean to imply that I have called you racist before? (A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.)

Second, and again, a simple "yes" or "no" is a necessary and sufficient response: Have I called you racist?
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
YYW
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3/12/2016 5:50:57 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/12/2016 5:26:00 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 3/12/2016 5:21:03 PM, YYW wrote:

So responding to people in the forums who ask worthwhile questions makes me obsessed?

But I thought I was a toxic member. You sure love being around radiation since you're constantly trying to sit at my table.

You are a toxic member, but that does't mean that your membership here is something I want to end. I just want you to stop engaging in certain specific behaviors, which is why I mock those behaviors.

Among the behaviors are: sexually harassing people (although this is really just more funny than anything else, despite the irony), attacking people because they say something you disagree with rather than engaging in substantive discussions with perspectives that are not congruent with yours, engaging acts of passive aggression, etc.

But by no means should you leave DDO. You make the best threads in the society forum by far, and your topics are among the most controversial, which is a good thing. That's what this forum is all about.

The issues arise when you try to make people who disagree with you shut up and go away, and that's the big difference between you and I. You want me to shut up and go away, whereas I want you to post prolifically for the very specific reason that your worldview is antithetical to mine. You're like a one -woman "red team," in that regard (a red team is a group of people whose purpose it is to disprove something).

That kind of discussion is good, and healthy; and it's why I come on this site and it's why I spend my days off posting here rather than shopping or hooking up with guys on grindr (although I do do both of those things with some degree of regularity).
Tsar of DDO