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The DDO Presidency

Wylted
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3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
It is way too early to announce a run for presidency, but here it is. I am announcing it this early because BSH1 has asked me to give him a heads up, as soon as I know what I want to do. Still read on, there are a lot of important things that need to be discussed here. Concerns that need addressed.

BSH1

BSH1 is a great president, perhaps the best DDO has seen. Though I'm sure a small handful of people will disagree. He is very dedicated to this site. I will never question his dedication to this site or his greatness as site president, even if I don't like certain things about him or have other concerns. I assume he is running again, and hopefully we can both keep our campaigns positive, even if we have very little control over what our respective supporters have to say.

The Problem With Great Leaders

Great leaders like BSH1 can do incredible things. While BSH1 has been in office a bunch of great things have happened. He organized a tournament system so we have plenty of good interest in tournaments. I always look forward to his updates. The new member mentorship program is great as well as the Op of the week. He does a lot of great things that can't really be replicated by anyone else, not that much and to that extent anyway.

So what's the problem? The problem is that it's too much. His time in office will end at some point, and the programs need somebody with his level of energy. They require his presence to keep going. I guess some temporary programs are fine, but I think we really need to look at permanence. A lot of times when a great leader goes, so does the organization. Like Alexander the Great and Greece, or Apple's fall when Steve Jobs was let go for a while. We need systems in place that are independent of their creator. When Ray Crok died, McDonald's did not lose a step, and that is because it's focus was on systems, not on a great leader with a great personality pulling it to the top. So BSH1 is incredible, nobody is better, but at least half of his programs are dependent on him. If I am elected, I will look to somehow automate his programs or discard them.

BSH1 is so great in fact that while being the best president ever, until recently he was holding together the beginner mafia series on his own. Beginner Mafia was completely on his shoulders. If he decided to randomly take a hiatus, or was forced to due to personal reasons, the series would have been in trouble. Luckily FourTrouble and F-16 saw this problem. They stepped in and created a system to keep the beginner's series not only indefinitely going, but also make it better than ever. There was of course some resistance to this. The resistance is healthy for dialogue, and expected when such an incredible leader is stepping down, and BSH1 was also the best leader in that respect. Should I win the presidency I will do my best to pull F-16 and FT in. With their experience at improving and automating social programs, we should be able to ensure that BSH1's programs are automated and can operate independently of any personality, including the president's. In fact I would encourage BSH1 to seek FT and F-16's help to automate his programs immediately.

Developing Leadership

Besides the formal leaders such as BSH1, Whiteflame and Airmax, there are many informal leaders. Leaders such as Fourtrouble, YYW, and Bluesteel. And I'm sure I've left out a ton of names. It's very important for DDO to develop new leadership, so a DDO Elite does not get created, and so that nobody perceives one to exist. People do joke about a DDO Elite, but to a certain extent an informal one does exist. The reason is because we don't develop new leadership. Fortunately in the mafia community new leadership is being developed. Sapphique for example is being developed as a great leader by running the beginner series, to a large extent. Thank you F-16 and FT for pushing for new standards that have the unanticipated side effect of developing new leadership.

The way in which we choose vice presidents should be in the same spirit. The vice president is largely a meaningless position, and I know many people would argue the presidency is as well, but even people who think a president is valuable, usually think a vice president is meaningless. I believe just about every presidential candidate has picked a vice president based on some strategic value for winning an election, but that is the wrong way to go about it. We should be using the position to develop new leadership.

This is why I have picked Rosalie as a vice president. She is in that spot, between new member and informal leader. I will serve as a mentor to help her become a sort of informal leader, and if I'm elected president then I will definitely be able to push her into that spot the informal DDO Elite make up. Rosalie is a future leader of DDO. She is smart. She is maturing more and more everyday, and most importantly she really loves DDO. I urge anybody else set on running to pick a vice president who they can mentor to be part of the future class of DDO Elite leaders. I know it is tempting to pick somebody who legitimizes your campaign, or that expands your voting base, but I ask that instead of the extreme focus on winning, you actually help the future of DDO.

This brings me to my next point. Term limits. We need them, and they need to be two terms. We have such a shortage of leadership here, that it is imperative we keep term limits to 2 or less. The longer a person is in office, the less we can develop the next class of leadership. We can take a list of every past president and their vice presidents to see that the DDO presidency really is effective at helping to create leaders. With the demographic of this site being so young, leadership is very important. The really young users need a mature presence to look up to. They need somebody to show them the ropes and the pitfalls, and let's face it. There are not enough leaders to go around. We don't actually need a formal mentorship program. We need a bunch of approachable young leaders willing to engage with young people on their level. If I win, I will work with Airmax to set formal term limits in the future. A 2 term limit. Given the turnover rate on this site, 2 terms is the best option.

Misc./Platform

I encourage all users to PM me with what they want in a president's platform. What types of things they want out of a site, also feel free to discuss them with my VP Rosalie. It is too early in the process to have anything solid, though I will touch on a few things.

I am aware of my own weaknesses and plan to form a committee of trusted members around me, when the election concludes, this committee will have my opponent's supporters on it as well, so I can't give names of certain people I will attempt to recruit, but I will try to recruit the best team possible.

I will have a platform that is largely geared to people ineligible to even vote for me. DDO needs a bunch of fresh blood, and so the platform needs to center around drawing in a bunch of fresh blood. These revive forum programs and op of the weak, aren't even necessary if we are pulling in fresh blood that want to engage in creating high quality ops on a regular basis.

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

If there are any questions about me or my candidacy, and I'm sure there will be since I just wrote in a stream of consciousness, then ask away. Both me and my VP are happy to answer.

#WyltedRose
1harderthanyouthink
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3/14/2016 8:21:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Just reminding everyone that the election should be in July this year, if I'm not mistaken - so we have 3 and a half months before we have to care.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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SolonKR
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3/14/2016 8:40:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 8:21:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Just reminding everyone that the election should be in July this year, if I'm not mistaken - so we have 3 and a half months before we have to care.

We care about US presidential elections starting 3 years, 364 days, and 23 hours before the election. I think DDO ought to adopt this model (disclaimer: yes, I saw Wylted's explanation for why he's posting it right now as opposed to later). In fact, to this end, I'm now announcing my campaign for president of DDO for the December election of 2017.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
SolonKR
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3/14/2016 9:01:02 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
DDO > going to sleep, so here are some questions to kick off the election cycle:

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially, your arguments generally boil down to, "Bsh is fantastic, but he won't be around forever, so we need to deal with that now." My question is, should Bsh decide to run again, given that he is from your view phenomenal, why shouldn't people vote for him in every single election from now until he's a decrepit 89-year old man? This is especially important in light of the fact that you've mentioned stability--why don't we just establish him as a site dictator, with a clearly denoted line of succession? That would be even more stable than structural change. Also, why are you in a better position to enact these changes than Bsh?

2. You speak of "automating" Bsh's programs. You cite the Beginner's Series as an example, which I don't necessarily agree with on the basis that there was already a structure in place that would have outlasted him; it was just that mafia community members voiced support for changing it and then drama happened. So, the question I have is this--what programs do you believe are dependent specifically on Bsh, and how would you change them to make them sustainable?

3. I appreciate the effort to make vice presidents more useful to administration. What would Rosalie's role as an "informal leader" entail?

4. On the subject of term limits, why do we need them? If there's a shortage of leadership, isn't that an argument for having fewer members serving longer terms? I understand that your campaign's goal is to make as many leaders as possible, but I'm not quite sure what the link between that and term limits is.

5. I generally agree with the idea that more programs at this point is not going to change anything, and the idea of attracting new members is always welcome, but besides creating more leaders, how exactly are you going to draw fresh blood to the site?
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
Wylted
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3/14/2016 9:57:53 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:01:02 AM, SolonKR wrote:
DDO > going to sleep, so here are some questions to kick off the election cycle:

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially, your arguments generally boil down to, "Bsh is fantastic, but he won't be around forever, so we need to deal with that now." My question is, should Bsh decide to run again, given that he is from your view phenomenal, why shouldn't people vote for him in every single election from now until he's a decrepit 89-year old man?

Lol

This is especially important in light of the fact that you've mentioned stability--why don't we just establish him as a site dictator, with a clearly denoted line of succession?

If he is willing to be president until he is 89 that would be fine. However you won't find anybody that does as awesome of a job as BSH1, so even an appointed line of succession would likely fail. I mean have you ever seen a president accomplish so much? while simultaneously single handedly running the beginner's mafia, and putting in great debate performances? He is truly irreplacable, and that is why I won't compete with him on his ground. I will be have a different style than him.

That would be even more stable than structural change. Also, why are you in a better position to enact these changes than Bsh?

This is an early announcement out of respect for BSH1. It will take a while to solidify things, and much depends on the political climate 3 months from now. So I'm laying a framework for where the policy positions and platform is likely to go. I haven't suggested too many changes here. I did suggest automating some of the stuff he does, so it isn't dependent on him in all his greatness. I'm not exaggerating when I say that either, he does a hell of a job. I think I'll have the support of FT and F-16 who have a history of automating programs that were previously dependent on BSH1. I think given his history with these folks, he is unlikely to be able to work well with the best qualified people to enact that change.

If the change is term limits (2 terms). I think it is absurd for a 3rd term president to work with Airmax to create that sort of term limit. We'd basically have two 3 term presidents in office working together to create that sort of policy. Not gonna happen.

Now let's discuss the other actions I've brought up. I mentioned going to Juggle's offices and knocking on the door to be able to sit down and talk to them about what they do. I do think I am the only person bold enough or crazy enough to show up to their doorsteps and try to personally initiate contact.

If the change you are asking about is my promise to lead by committee. Bringing together a round-table of highly trusted, respected and approachable DDO members to help make the best decisions possible. Well BSH1 is such a great leader he doesn't need to do that. He does work with lots of people, but it isn't a true round table. So given his history and strengths, I doubt he will start presidenting that way.

2. You speak of "automating" Bsh's programs. You cite the Beginner's Series as an example, which I don't necessarily agree with on the basis that there was already a structure in place that would have outlasted him; it was just that mafia community members voiced support for changing it and then drama happened. So, the question I have is this--what programs do you believe are dependent specifically on Bsh, and how would you change them to make them sustainable?

I'd say the beginner mentorship program' op of the week and his push for attacking and updating the DDO Wiki right now. Though these efforts are a team effort and involve a lot of people, they will absolutely fall apart without BSH1 staying on top of it. Like I said the guy is a machine, nobody else could replicate the sheer amount of energy behind him. I think it is premature to bring up specific things that will be done to automate his programs. I would like to have an open public discussion guided by FT and F-16 on how this can be done. I don't have all the answers, nor should I. The president should get massive input from the community as a whole, and implement that in a smart cohesive way.

I disagree with you on the beginner's series. It was there well before BSH1 came along, but after a certain point he became the face of it. If the defacto leadership of the mafia community had not been president and he decided to just quit, it would not be a smooth transition. I suspect it would have taken a while to fully revive it. I think it was an attempt by F-16 and FT to merely improve the beginner's series, but they unknowingly actually saved it. No B.S. from me, man. BSH1 is such a great person that things around him start becoming dependent on him, because he has a habit of becoming the glue that holds things together.

3. I appreciate the effort to make vice presidents more useful to administration. What would Rosalie's role as an "informal leader" entail?

She will be my mentee. I will help her grow as a leader and a person. informal leaders don't have formal roles. YYW is an informal leader on this site, can you name his role? The persons on this site already recognized as leaders, need to step up and start mentoring these up and coming members. If we want maturity, civility and good discussion in the forums, it starts by creating a whole new class of leaders.

The vice presidential role is typically used as a way to target voters outside of the pool of people that would normally vote for you. Or it legitimizes a person's run for president. Once a president is elected the VP usually does nothing. They are literally just a title. Why do we do this instead of just using it as an opportunity to mentor the next group of leaders?

4. On the subject of term limits, why do we need them? If there's a shortage of leadership, isn't that an argument for having fewer members serving longer terms? I understand that your campaign's goal is to make as many leaders as possible, but I'm not quite sure what the link between that and term limits is.

Leaders need experience. The office of presidency is a way of gaining that experience. Could you imagine what the site would be like without Airmax? He was virtually unknown until he won the presidency, but with that experience he showcased his leadership ability as well as grew as a leader. Without the previous leader stepping down, the site may not have Airmax as the great moderator he is. Term limits allow one more outlet for gaining and showcasing leadership experience.

5. I generally agree with the idea that more programs at this point is not going to change anything, and the idea of attracting new members is always welcome, but besides creating more leaders, how exactly are you going to draw fresh blood to the site?

We don't need to draw any here. We have plenty of fresh blood who are great debaters. They just turnover fast. We need to interrupt that turnover by making a real connection with new people who have potential. For example I just noticed this new member named "U.N.". He is a good debater and a smart guy, but my guess is that unless he makes some meaningful connections here, we'll lose another good member. A member that nobody knew existed. So we don't draw them in. We do what cults do and "Love bomb" them. I want the site to help me figure out ways to do this, but just a thought off the top of my head. Why don't we normalize making introduction threads that double as an AMA? Posting in the sticky goes unnoticed and ignored, but creating their own thread is definitely noticeable.

Look we're going to have a great platform when this is finished. Part of the reason to announce this early, is I wanted BSH1 to have a heads up, but another reason was to give us time to talk to the community and figure out how we can work together to do some great things. I'm not talking about polls either, but an honest exchange of ideals, with open mi
Vaarka
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3/14/2016 12:17:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

So...if this were to happen, would you need to get permission from Juggle to record/write down the conversation and then share it with us?
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

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Wylted
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3/14/2016 1:06:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 12:17:19 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

So...if this were to happen, would you need to get permission from Juggle to record/write down the conversation and then share it with us?

I don't see any point in doing it unless I get their permission to record it
Vaarka
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3/14/2016 1:10:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 1:06:30 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/14/2016 12:17:19 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

So...if this were to happen, would you need to get permission from Juggle to record/write down the conversation and then share it with us?

I don't see any point in doing it unless I get their permission to record it

True
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
lannan13
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3/14/2016 2:26:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 8:21:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Just reminding everyone that the election should be in July this year, if I'm not mistaken - so we have 3 and a half months before we have to care.

I thought it was in June.
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Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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Hayd
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3/14/2016 2:35:33 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 8:40:49 AM, SolonKR wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:21:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Just reminding everyone that the election should be in July this year, if I'm not mistaken - so we have 3 and a half months before we have to care.

We care about US presidential elections starting 3 years, 364 days, and 23 hours before the election. I think DDO ought to adopt this model (disclaimer: yes, I saw Wylted's explanation for why he's posting it right now as opposed to later). In fact, to this end, I'm now announcing my campaign for president of DDO for the December election of 2017.

lol, when the 2017 election comes up I'm going to remember this
Hayd
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3/14/2016 2:39:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 2:26:43 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:21:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Just reminding everyone that the election should be in July this year, if I'm not mistaken - so we have 3 and a half months before we have to care.

I thought it was in June.

No they changed it
CodingSource
Posts: 350
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3/14/2016 2:44:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I know who to vote: Wylted.
If computers have no doors or fences, who needs Windows and Gates?

I have a 10-0-0 debate record with an ELO ranking of 2,814. From 610th during my first two-week stay, I am now 326th in the Debates Leaderboard: http://www.debate.org...
Rosalie
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3/14/2016 2:52:04 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 2:44:23 PM, CodingSource wrote:
I know who to vote: Wylted.

Lol, thanks for your support. :)
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump
SolonKR
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3/14/2016 3:19:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 9:57:53 AM, Wylted wrote:
Look we're going to have a great platform when this is finished. Part of the reason to announce this early, is I wanted BSH1 to have a heads up, but another reason was to give us time to talk to the community and figure out how we can work together to do some great things

Yeah, I get that. That's part of the reason why I was asking so many questions, lol (the other part is that I'm just generally a sucker for elections now).
I'll respond to the rest when I'm back from classes in the evening.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
lannan13
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3/14/2016 3:24:03 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 2:39:12 PM, Hayd wrote:
At 3/14/2016 2:26:43 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:21:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Just reminding everyone that the election should be in July this year, if I'm not mistaken - so we have 3 and a half months before we have to care.

I thought it was in June.

No they changed it

When was this?
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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Blade-of-Truth
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3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.
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Emmarie
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3/14/2016 4:43:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

Since I'm very new here, I still have a fresh perspective. I'd like to make known, that the reason that this site is refreshing to me,(compared to larger more popular social media sites) is because of the current lack of frills results in a focus on actual dialog. I hope that any updates, would not lead this site into becoming a meme posting, flame war inciting site. I don't know if that what is meant by improvements, but I think that adding the ability to post more visual content, would detract from the well written content that makes up much of this site.
Wylted
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3/14/2016 5:07:53 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

Thanks
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/14/2016 5:12:53 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 4:43:45 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

Since I'm very new here, I still have a fresh perspective. I'd like to make known, that the reason that this site is refreshing to me,(compared to larger more popular social media sites) is because of the current lack of frills results in a focus on actual dialog. I hope that any updates, would not lead this site into becoming a meme posting, flame war inciting site. I don't know if that what is meant by improvements, but I think that adding the ability to post more visual content, would detract from the well written content that makes up much of this site.

Nobody wants those ttpes of updates. We just don't want the bugs either.
Blade-of-Truth
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3/14/2016 5:16:09 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 4:43:45 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

Since I'm very new here, I still have a fresh perspective. I'd like to make known, that the reason that this site is refreshing to me,(compared to larger more popular social media sites) is because of the current lack of frills results in a focus on actual dialog. I hope that any updates, would not lead this site into becoming a meme posting, flame war inciting site. I don't know if that what is meant by improvements, but I think that adding the ability to post more visual content, would detract from the well written content that makes up much of this site.

Oh no, you don't have to worry about that in the slightest. The improvements I wish to seek from Juggle's involvement wouldn't detract any of the valued aspects of the site - and would, if anything, serve to improve them for everyone.

My specific plans, should Juggle get on-board, would only serve to improve the voting on this site. For instance, one of the things I'd like to see would be for all new members to receive an automated message that introduces them to the voting standards once they complete their 3rd debate and earn voting privileges. This would drastically reduce the chances of people having their votes removed since they'd already be familiarized with the voting standards automatically. It'd also help the debaters themselves since they'd be getting votes by people who have now read and understand the voting standards - thus leaving better votes on their debates.

It'd be as simple as a pop-up message that includes the Voting Guide and then has a little box that the member would check once they read the guide presented in the pop-up message. That click is what would "turn-on" their voting privileges. Then and only then would they be allowed to vote. It wouldn't put any more of a burden on the voters themselves since they'd just have to read a 3 minute message, and the benefits would speak for themselves in time I believe.
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3/14/2016 5:53:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

I understand that Juggle and stie updates are a big issue, but the question here is whether visiting their office would actually change anything. Is there any reason to believe an in-person visit will suddenly change their business calculations?

Moreover, there is a real risk this could backfire. Juggle could easily see this as an annoyance that they have to put up with, and may make them feel less inclined to assist.
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Hayd
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3/14/2016 5:57:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 3:24:03 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 2:39:12 PM, Hayd wrote:
At 3/14/2016 2:26:43 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:21:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Just reminding everyone that the election should be in July this year, if I'm not mistaken - so we have 3 and a half months before we have to care.

I thought it was in June.

No they changed it

When was this?

Idk, it was in one of the updates. You can ask max or bsh when and they'll clarify
imabench
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3/14/2016 5:59:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 8:21:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Just reminding everyone that the election should be in July this year, if I'm not mistaken - so we have 3 and a half months before we have to care.

So Wylted is the new Jimtimmy then?
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Cody_Franklin
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3/14/2016 6:06:11 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I've got a question.

One lingering problem that I've never seen any systematic effort to resolve is the lack of ambition that members seem to have with respect to optimizing their cognitive faculties. More accurately: people learn how to be persuasive on this site, how to articulate their positions, and some of the basic no-nos of formal reasoning, even if they weren't always gracefully wielded (there was a time when you could scarcely read through a thread without at least a few members hurling fancy-sounding latin-dressed fallacy accusations at each other). Learning the finer points of rhetoric is all well if you're trying to win a debate round, but it's not the same as a solid education in being a better thinker. For all their well-referenced argumentation on the benefits of border fences or whether the Fed should execute a particular policy respecting interest rates, I wonder how many people nevertheless fall victim to really easy-to-avoid errors like sitting through bad movies to "get their money's worth" on the ticket, or who, even on the level of on-site argumentation, dedicate significantly more effort than average to deconstructing a position they dislike, or a position they disagree with asserted by a person they dislike, but would scarcely do the same for the argument of a good friend.

If you say one thing for the fruits of the study of the working human mind, say that we suck at thinking. While I doubt anyone would openly contest it, few people I've encountered appear to have consciously internalized, much less made it stick. It seems like a place that claims to be dedicated to the development of intellectual ability would, hypothetically, be the kind of place concerned not just with the explicit basics--here's how you construct a syllogism, here's a list of fallacies, here are fundamental rules of evidence in formal debate, here's a definition of "burden of proof"--but also with the heuristics, tricks, and unspoken habits of thought to which people pay comparatively little attention.

If you say anything more for the fruits of our study, say we've at least encountered means of correction. There are fairly well-documented and [relatively] accessible ways for people to learn about how their brains trip them up, and how that might be at least somewhat guarded against. Some parts of this might require widening members' conceptual horizons (most people are not generally acquainted with behavioral economics, decision and information theory, computational induction), but there are some things that just require practical application--to sort of borrow Feynman's way of explaining the problem, there are plenty of people on here who apprehend the sunk costs problem in the abstract; they have the vocabulary, and could hammer it out on an exam if you prompted them appropriately.

They don't, however, have anything for "look at this idiot sitting through this terrible movie!", even when they're the idiot.

A long while ago, a few members had the idea to put together a sort of tiered seminar/Q&A series pertaining to the study of reasoning--different "experts" for different modules, and different tiers for different skill levels--and the idea sort of fell apart owing to the lack of organization/communication/cohesion. If I recall correctly, the thing died after the first few lessons (if it got even that far).

It's easy enough to call out people making bad arguments, or to ask for civility in the face of cyclical counter-trolling, but ending it at that seems to me like giving someone this nutritional advice: "your diet is bad, and you should really eat fewer bad things". There's no explanation of what nutrients you actually need, much less where you might get them, or how to prepare your food to get them as efficiently as possible. One thing that I've found bores me about this site a little bit--and I think can't help but bore you if you've participated on here and elsewhere long enough to acquire a decent mental toolkit--is that you see, not just the same arguments taking place over and over, but the same poor reasoning ability being deployed far, far too often. The way I loosely describe it is "If you took the arguments being made by the average DDO member concerning any subject, and the arguments being made by people three standard deviations in relevant cognitive ability above the average human being (use whatever units you want), you'd see a yawning quality gap, and for reasons that I don't think have entirely to do [directly] from extra information or specialization. If we're concerned with making good arguments here (and not just persuasive-sounding arguments), this is a serious problem." I would further assert, more to the point, these people are better at all the skills that have to do with producing quality beliefs about things (which, I grant, probably allows them to play with more advanced and better-calibrated tools than most of us).

Some of it, to be sure, has to do with a certain subset of people just being a lot smarter than the rest of us in such a way we'd probably never be able to catch up if set to the same tasks. But, all else equal, I think people would be better off increasing their toolkit and refining their ability to use particular tools, even if they'll clearly never be masters of the craft.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is I think we have so much untapped potential for improvement, in terms of a) fixing some of the [often normative] problems of online discussion, b) widely-accepted rules for generating belief and argument, c) general strategies for mitigating our disastrous inborn irrationality. Although you indicate previous administrations have focused on members, questions of member relations/civility/acclimation to the site seem to have been at the forefront, rather than training people to be better at thinking. Even mentor-type programs seem to be predominantly aimed at helping members get their bearings in the debate module and showing them how to do things like format and word their arguments. I'd love to see some kind of large-scale training effort designed to address the issues I've raised--in particular, I want to know how amenable you are to erecting such a program, and how you imagine we might get started.
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3/14/2016 6:13:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 5:53:36 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

I understand that Juggle and stie updates are a big issue, but the question here is whether visiting their office would actually change anything. Is there any reason to believe an in-person visit will suddenly change their business calculations?

Moreover, there is a real risk this could backfire. Juggle could easily see this as an annoyance that they have to put up with, and may make them feel less inclined to assist.

In my opinion it's the most necessary issue, at this point, worth tackling. That is a good question though. My thoughts on it are that there'd be no harm in doing so. They already don't assist, in any capacity whatsoever, so how could we possibly dissuade them to assist any further?

The only real risk I see is being turned down in a cold-hearted way, but I don't think Juggle is that cruel of a business. So, with nothing to lose and everything to gain - why shouldn't we at-least attempt such a thing? If it was done so in an appropriate manner - meaning he visits the head office, respectfully requests a meeting, and then patiently waits for that meeting to take place - I can't see any harm being done.

Anyone could do it, including you, but I do believe Wylted is crazy enough to do it, and sometimes what the world needs is a little crazy to get things done.
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3/14/2016 6:19:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 6:13:23 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 5:53:36 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

I understand that Juggle and stie updates are a big issue, but the question here is whether visiting their office would actually change anything. Is there any reason to believe an in-person visit will suddenly change their business calculations?

Moreover, there is a real risk this could backfire. Juggle could easily see this as an annoyance that they have to put up with, and may make them feel less inclined to assist.

In my opinion it's the most necessary issue, at this point, worth tackling. That is a good question though. My thoughts on it are that there'd be no harm in doing so. They already don't assist, in any capacity whatsoever, so how could we possibly dissuade them to assist any further?

You can certainly make them less eager to assist in the future. I am not saying you change their level of assistance, but rather their likelihood to assist.

Really, I don't see Wylted's visiting them as more likely to produce results. Max has pretty much done everything he can to involved them, as have I. If even Max, with whom they have an established and good working relationship, cannot engage them on the site, I doubt someone they have never worked with visiting them will change that, even if it's face-to-face.

Anyone could do it, including you, but I do believe Wylted is crazy enough to do it, and sometimes what the world needs is a little crazy to get things done.

Crazy can just as easily backfire.

I might also point out that last election Wylted earned votes by lying to people about where he lived (he said that he lived in IL, when he is really in MD), and then said that he was "right next" to Juggle so he could visit all the time. Lying about campaign promises should seriously undermine the credibility of the promises he makes.
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Emmarie
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3/14/2016 6:19:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 5:16:09 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 4:43:45 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

Since I'm very new here, I still have a fresh perspective. I'd like to make known, that the reason that this site is refreshing to me,(compared to larger more popular social media sites) is because of the current lack of frills results in a focus on actual dialog. I hope that any updates, would not lead this site into becoming a meme posting, flame war inciting site. I don't know if that what is meant by improvements, but I think that adding the ability to post more visual content, would detract from the well written content that makes up much of this site.

Oh no, you don't have to worry about that in the slightest. The improvements I wish to seek from Juggle's involvement wouldn't detract any of the valued aspects of the site - and would, if anything, serve to improve them for everyone.

My specific plans, should Juggle get on-board, would only serve to improve the voting on this site. For instance, one of the things I'd like to see would be for all new members to receive an automated message that introduces them to the voting standards once they complete their 3rd debate and earn voting privileges. This would drastically reduce the chances of people having their votes removed since they'd already be familiarized with the voting standards automatically. It'd also help the debaters themselves since they'd be getting votes by people who have now read and understand the voting standards - thus leaving better votes on their debates.

It'd be as simple as a pop-up message that includes the Voting Guide and then has a little box that the member would check once they read the guide presented in the pop-up message. That click is what would "turn-on" their voting privileges. Then and only then would they be allowed to vote. It wouldn't put any more of a burden on the voters themselves since they'd just have to read a 3 minute message, and the benefits would speak for themselves in time I believe.
Yes, I think that would be a great improvement.

I apologize for jumping the gun, I just think this site is one of the few places to discuss issues, not just post visual content. Blogs can be good but sometimes it's like blah, blah, blah - followed by comments. This site it unique that it offers considerable dialog in the form of debates from more than one perspective.
Vaarka
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3/14/2016 6:19:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 6:06:11 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I've got a question.

One lingering problem that I've never seen any systematic effort to resolve is the lack of ambition that members seem to have with respect to optimizing their cognitive faculties. More accurately: people learn how to be persuasive on this site, how to articulate their positions, and some of the basic no-nos of formal reasoning, even if they weren't always gracefully wielded (there was a time when you could scarcely read through a thread without at least a few members hurling fancy-sounding latin-dressed fallacy accusations at each other). Learning the finer points of rhetoric is all well if you're trying to win a debate round, but it's not the same as a solid education in being a better thinker. For all their well-referenced argumentation on the benefits of border fences or whether the Fed should execute a particular policy respecting interest rates, I wonder how many people nevertheless fall victim to really easy-to-avoid errors like sitting through bad movies to "get their money's worth" on the ticket, or who, even on the level of on-site argumentation, dedicate significantly more effort than average to deconstructing a position they dislike, or a position they disagree with asserted by a person they dislike, but would scarcely do the same for the argument of a good friend.

If you say one thing for the fruits of the study of the working human mind, say that we suck at thinking. While I doubt anyone would openly contest it, few people I've encountered appear to have consciously internalized, much less made it stick. It seems like a place that claims to be dedicated to the development of intellectual ability would, hypothetically, be the kind of place concerned not just with the explicit basics--here's how you construct a syllogism, here's a list of fallacies, here are fundamental rules of evidence in formal debate, here's a definition of "burden of proof"--but also with the heuristics, tricks, and unspoken habits of thought to which people pay comparatively little attention.

If you say anything more for the fruits of our study, say we've at least encountered means of correction. There are fairly well-documented and [relatively] accessible ways for people to learn about how their brains trip them up, and how that might be at least somewhat guarded against. Some parts of this might require widening members' conceptual horizons (most people are not generally acquainted with behavioral economics, decision and information theory, computational induction), but there are some things that just require practical application--to sort of borrow Feynman's way of explaining the problem, there are plenty of people on here who apprehend the sunk costs problem in the abstract; they have the vocabulary, and could hammer it out on an exam if you prompted them appropriately.

They don't, however, have anything for "look at this idiot sitting through this terrible movie!", even when they're the idiot.

A long while ago, a few members had the idea to put together a sort of tiered seminar/Q&A series pertaining to the study of reasoning--different "experts" for different modules, and different tiers for different skill levels--and the idea sort of fell apart owing to the lack of organization/communication/cohesion. If I recall correctly, the thing died after the first few lessons (if it got even that far).

It's easy enough to call out people making bad arguments, or to ask for civility in the face of cyclical counter-trolling, but ending it at that seems to me like giving someone this nutritional advice: "your diet is bad, and you should really eat fewer bad things". There's no explanation of what nutrients you actually need, much less where you might get them, or how to prepare your food to get them as efficiently as possible. One thing that I've found bores me about this site a little bit--and I think can't help but bore you if you've participated on here and elsewhere long enough to acquire a decent mental toolkit--is that you see, not just the same arguments taking place over and over, but the same poor reasoning ability being deployed far, far too often. The way I loosely describe it is "If you took the arguments being made by the average DDO member concerning any subject, and the arguments being made by people three standard deviations in relevant cognitive ability above the average human being (use whatever units you want), you'd see a yawning quality gap, and for reasons that I don't think have entirely to do [directly] from extra information or specialization. If we're concerned with making good arguments here (and not just persuasive-sounding arguments), this is a serious problem." I would further assert, more to the point, these people are better at all the skills that have to do with producing quality beliefs about things (which, I grant, probably allows them to play with more advanced and better-calibrated tools than most of us).

Some of it, to be sure, has to do with a certain subset of people just being a lot smarter than the rest of us in such a way we'd probably never be able to catch up if set to the same tasks. But, all else equal, I think people would be better off increasing their toolkit and refining their ability to use particular tools, even if they'll clearly never be masters of the craft.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is I think we have so much untapped potential for improvement, in terms of a) fixing some of the [often normative] problems of online discussion, b) widely-accepted rules for generating belief and argument, c) general strategies for mitigating our disastrous inborn irrationality. Although you indicate previous administrations have focused on members, questions of member relations/civility/acclimation to the site seem to have been at the forefront, rather than training people to be better at thinking. Even mentor-type programs seem to be predominantly aimed at helping members get their bearings in the debate module and showing them how to do things like format and word their arguments. I'd love to see some kind of large-scale training effort designed to address the issues I've raised--in particular, I want to know how amenable you are to erecting such a program, and how you imagine we might get started.

Hey Cody, how's it going? I hope you're doing great! Yeah, that'd be cool! Now, if you're wondering why I'm replying to this, well it's really quite simple. You see, after reading all that LOOOOONG text, I realized I had no idea what the heck you were talking about almost the entire time. So, not to sound like a rude little Vaarka, but could you do me a great big favor and take all that text above, and then summarize it in a paragraph without all of those fancy synonyms? Yeah...that'd be great :D kthxbai
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Emmarie
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3/14/2016 6:20:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 5:12:53 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/14/2016 4:43:45 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/14/2016 4:29:26 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 3/14/2016 8:16:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

Here is one thing that I will do that nobody else is willing to. Should I get elected, I will make the time to go to Juggle's headquarters and talk somebody in Juggle on a personal level. On a friendly level. I will see what is going on with them, so I can help the community understand Juggle a little better. This benefits the community and Juggle, so it should not be a problem. This alone is reason enough to vote for me.

This actually *is* reason enough to vote for you. My only qualm against Bsh1's presidency is that his entire focus has been on the community/members. That's fine, and was needed at the time - however, what we truly need at this point is for Juggle to get back on board. There were several other points you raised that I liked, including automating the membership programs that Bsh1 has started. The most important is Juggle though, this site needs technical and site coding support again to improve and update some of the infrastructure.

All in all, good announcement.

Since I'm very new here, I still have a fresh perspective. I'd like to make known, that the reason that this site is refreshing to me,(compared to larger more popular social media sites) is because of the current lack of frills results in a focus on actual dialog. I hope that any updates, would not lead this site into becoming a meme posting, flame war inciting site. I don't know if that what is meant by improvements, but I think that adding the ability to post more visual content, would detract from the well written content that makes up much of this site.

Nobody wants those ttpes of updates. We just don't want the bugs either.

glad to hear that and I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
Cody_Franklin
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3/14/2016 6:45:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/14/2016 6:19:51 PM, Vaarka wrote:

Hey Cody, how's it going? I hope you're doing great! Yeah, that'd be cool! Now, if you're wondering why I'm replying to this, well it's really quite simple. You see, after reading all that LOOOOONG text, I realized I had no idea what the heck you were talking about almost the entire time. So, not to sound like a rude little Vaarka, but could you do me a great big favor and take all that text above, and then summarize it in a paragraph without all of those fancy synonyms? Yeah...that'd be great :D kthxbai

Totally fair request. I write like that because I like language, and really like precision.

The gist of it is that a) it's widely-recognized people suck at thinking; b) this fact is not paid enough attention on this site, and that causes people to routinely commit the same errors (often because they focus on honing the wrong skills [or honing good ones way, way more than is useful to the neglect of others]), and later generations of members learn nothing from their predecessors as a result; c) though we can't hope for perfection, I think there are ways of addressing a lot of brain farts in ways that are accessible to most of the membership; d) I think we could do this with relatively little effort if several of our best were convinced to contribute.

One way to think about it is as fighting a glass ceiling on argumentation. There are a lot of dumb, low-level debates and threads made on here, particularly on forums dealing with potentially contentious issues. Irrespective of intent, these contributions are made and responded to using really shoddy and unrefined thought processes. On any particular issue, there's usually only so sophisticated you can get with an argument before people give up or are clearly unqualified. My assertion is that, if we could train people to avoid the easy errors, we stand a decent chance at raising the ceiling on how much nuance we might be able to fit into any given discussion, and at reducing the amount of plainly dumb content. For example: you know why there is such a deep and detailed knowledge out there about how genes work? Why we can sequence entire genomes, explain change over time, and even make our own modifications? Because the people who are smart enough and possessed of the qualifications to put in the work don't waste their time thinking Deep and Hard about whether evolutionary "theory" [heh heh] might be a big hoax perpetrated against people of faith. Even people who are possessed of religious belief in applied fields are usually responsible enough not to involve it when they're trying to do meaningful work. If we learned what we needed to learn to understand how much of our own time we were wasting making (or participating in) those kinds of arguments, I think we could actually do some pretty great things here.