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Vote moderation policy change

airmax1227
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3/20/2016 7:40:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
An issue has been raised about awarding a single conduct point for debates with forfeited rounds. A lot of discussion has occurred and I would like to move forward with this in a way that best gauges where concerned members stand on this.

The only way suggested to combat this, is to adopt a policy that forces a member to also award and explain Argument points if they are going award conduct (or any points).

If you agree with this change of policy please post a "Yay" in this thread.

If you believe that voters should be able to only award conduct when a forfeit occurs, please post "Nay" in this thread.
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Maikuru
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3/20/2016 7:44:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Cool. I like the idea of a simple up/down vote like this to address an emergent issue. Very responsive.

I think I'll read over some of the things posted in the recent threads before voting.
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fire_wings
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3/20/2016 7:46:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yay and Nay. If it is like forfeit, extend, nay. If they tried hard, and forfeited one round, and wrote everything else, yay.
Emmarie
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3/20/2016 7:51:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:40:59 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
An issue has been raised about awarding a single conduct point for debates with forfeited rounds. A lot of discussion has occurred and I would like to move forward with this in a way that best gauges where concerned members stand on this.

The only way suggested to combat this, is to adopt a policy that forces a member to also award and explain Argument points if they are going award conduct (or any points).

If you agree with this change of policy please post a "Yay" in this thread.

If you believe that voters should be able to only award conduct when a forfeit occurs, please post "Nay" in this thread.

I need clarification for what constitutes a yay or nay. I don't get what exactly you mean.
Vaarka
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3/20/2016 7:52:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The problem with this is if I say nay, then what is currently happening will continue. If I say yay, then rounds where someone actually did just sit there, say "I accept", and then extend until the debate ended, then you'd have to vote for FF (this would be a justified ff vote), plus another.

But I feel like saying yay would be the better choice. I can't vote anyway, but whatever XP
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airmax1227
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3/20/2016 7:55:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:51:25 PM, Emmarie wrote:

I need clarification for what constitutes a yay or nay. I don't get what exactly you mean.

This policy is intended to address the awarding of "conduct only" votes on forfeited debates.

The issue is that simply giving someone conduct for their opponent forfeiting does not address the rest of the debate. This policy would force someone to award and explain Argument points as a prerequisite to awarding all other point categories.

So, if you are in favor of having voters award argument points as a prerequisite to awarding any other points, vote YAY.

If you believe someone should be able to vote ONLY conduct points because of a forfeit or multiple forfeits, vote NAY.
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bsh1
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3/20/2016 7:56:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that if there is only one forfeit in 4 or 5 rounds of debate, it would be wrong just to award the conduct without addressing arguments. But, if there are multiple forfeits, or if there is a forfeit in a shorter debate, then awarding the conduct point is fine.
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airmax1227
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3/20/2016 7:57:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:52:54 PM, Vaarka wrote:
The problem with this is if I say nay, then what is currently happening will continue. If I say yay, then rounds where someone actually did just sit there, say "I accept", and then extend until the debate ended, then you'd have to vote for FF (this would be a justified ff vote), plus another.

No other options have been suggested, and this is the only solution to this that I can think of. To prevent conduct-only votes we have to insist on Argument points being a prerequisite. It's the only policy that makes sense and I haven't seen anything else suggested to this point.

But I feel like saying yay would be the better choice. I can't vote anyway, but whatever XP

You can certainly vote on this though. Even if you can't vote on debates currently, your opinion as a member is valued and required. So please vote.
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Emmarie
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3/20/2016 7:57:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:55:07 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 7:51:25 PM, Emmarie wrote:

I need clarification for what constitutes a yay or nay. I don't get what exactly you mean.

This policy is intended to address the awarding of "conduct only" votes on forfeited debates.

The issue is that simply giving someone conduct for their opponent forfeiting does not address the rest of the debate. This policy would force someone to award and explain Argument points as a prerequisite to awarding all other point categories.

So, if you are in favor of having voters award argument points as a prerequisite to awarding any other points, vote YAY.

If you believe someone should be able to vote ONLY conduct points because of a forfeit or multiple forfeits, vote NAY.

ok yay
imabench
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3/20/2016 8:00:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:55:07 PM, airmax1227 wrote:

So, if you are in favor of having voters award argument points as a prerequisite to awarding any other points, vote YAY.

Ive voted on debates where both sides were either equally great or equally sh*tty that no side could truly win argument points. Would this rule make that illegal, or does this apply only to debates that have been partially or fully forfeited, rather then apply to all debeates? Just to be clear

If you believe someone should be able to vote ONLY conduct points because of a forfeit or multiple forfeits, vote NAY.

I also think full-forfeit debates should be allowed to be voted on 4-0 against the forfeiter for conduct and argument points, so I dont really like this option either.
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YYW
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3/20/2016 8:00:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:52:54 PM, Vaarka wrote:
The problem with this is if I say nay, then what is currently happening will continue. If I say yay, then rounds where someone actually did just sit there, say "I accept", and then extend until the debate ended, then you'd have to vote for FF (this would be a justified ff vote), plus another.

But I feel like saying yay would be the better choice. I can't vote anyway, but whatever XP

I agree with this... There is no good option.
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Briannj17
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3/20/2016 8:00:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:40:59 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
An issue has been raised about awarding a single conduct point for debates with forfeited rounds. A lot of discussion has occurred and I would like to move forward with this in a way that best gauges where concerned members stand on this.

The only way suggested to combat this, is to adopt a policy that forces a member to also award and explain Argument points if they are going award conduct (or any points).

If you agree with this change of policy please post a "Yay" in this thread.

If you believe that voters should be able to only award conduct when a forfeit occurs, please post "Nay" in this thread.

I say nay.

The requirements on RFD for arguments is strict and this is the main reason people vote on conduct or spelling and grammer. If the policy was in place it would decrease voting even more. It will continue anyways because all the voters could say is "They made equal arguments" and add a little finesse and they would still vote on conduct or spelling and grammar anyway. So nay.
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airmax1227
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3/20/2016 8:02:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:56:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think that if there is only one forfeit in 4 or 5 rounds of debate, it would be wrong just to award the conduct without addressing arguments. But, if there are multiple forfeits, or if there is a forfeit in a shorter debate, then awarding the conduct point is fine.

I personally agree and that was an issue that I brought up, but I don't see how that changes much ultimately. If someone forfeits nearly all rounds, it makes awarding argument points and explaining them that much more necessary and easy. So ultimately this is a catch-all policy and based on all of the discussions that have occurred on this to this point. The only exception is full-forfeited debates (FF'd all rounds aside from the first), and we don't moderate those anyway, so people can votebomb those all they like
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Vaarka
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3/20/2016 8:02:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:57:41 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 7:52:54 PM, Vaarka wrote:
The problem with this is if I say nay, then what is currently happening will continue. If I say yay, then rounds where someone actually did just sit there, say "I accept", and then extend until the debate ended, then you'd have to vote for FF (this would be a justified ff vote), plus another.

No other options have been suggested, and this is the only solution to this that I can think of. To prevent conduct-only votes we have to insist on Argument points being a prerequisite. It's the only policy that makes sense and I haven't seen anything else suggested to this point.
I know it may sound strange, and I don't know if it's even possible, but what if we removed the "tied" buttons, or maybe added text boxes onto each of the 7 points where you give a short reason for why you're voting that person for it. I know you already do that at the bottom of RFV, but if there was instead one RFV for each one, then you'd have to give a reason, which would mean you'd have to actually read it in order to put something.
I feel like this would at least help narrow down the votes that need deleting vs votes that are legit. Just an idea I'm throwing out there for now.


But I feel like saying yay would be the better choice. I can't vote anyway, but whatever XP

You can certainly vote on this though. Even if you can't vote on debates currently, your opinion as a member is valued and required. So please vote.
I have yet to decide XP
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCat: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
Vaarka
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3/20/2016 8:03:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 8:00:56 PM, Briannj17 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 7:40:59 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
An issue has been raised about awarding a single conduct point for debates with forfeited rounds. A lot of discussion has occurred and I would like to move forward with this in a way that best gauges where concerned members stand on this.

The only way suggested to combat this, is to adopt a policy that forces a member to also award and explain Argument points if they are going award conduct (or any points).

If you agree with this change of policy please post a "Yay" in this thread.

If you believe that voters should be able to only award conduct when a forfeit occurs, please post "Nay" in this thread.

I say nay.

The requirements on RFD for arguments is strict and this is the main reason people vote on conduct or spelling and grammer. If the policy was in place it would decrease voting even more. It will continue anyways because all the voters could say is "They made equal arguments" and add a little finesse and they would still vote on conduct or spelling and grammar anyway. So nay.

My suggestion would also lead to a similar problem
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCat: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
bsh1
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3/20/2016 8:04:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 8:02:01 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 7:56:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think that if there is only one forfeit in 4 or 5 rounds of debate, it would be wrong just to award the conduct without addressing arguments. But, if there are multiple forfeits, or if there is a forfeit in a shorter debate, then awarding the conduct point is fine.

I personally agree and that was an issue that I brought up, but I don't see how that changes much ultimately. If someone forfeits nearly all rounds, it makes awarding argument points and explaining them that much more necessary and easy. So ultimately this is a catch-all policy and based on all of the discussions that have occurred on this to this point. The only exception is full-forfeited debates (FF'd all rounds aside from the first), and we don't moderate those anyway, so people can votebomb those all they like

Eh, for the catch-all, I am going to say nay. I understand that it may have certain benefits, but I would rather tailor the policy more narrowly. As Tej likes to say, voting is for the debaters--and not just for the one who didn't forfeit.
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bsh1
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3/20/2016 8:05:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
When a debater forfeits multiple times, I am less sympathetic. I think, in forfeit situations, we should recognize that sometimes giving args is necessary, sometimes it's not.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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airmax1227
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3/20/2016 8:07:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 8:00:11 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2016 7:55:07 PM, airmax1227 wrote:

So, if you are in favor of having voters award argument points as a prerequisite to awarding any other points, vote YAY.

Ive voted on debates where both sides were either equally great or equally sh*tty that no side could truly win argument points. Would this rule make that illegal, or does this apply only to debates that have been partially or fully forfeited, rather then apply to all debeates? Just to be clear

It would apply to all debates. This policy, in order to combat conduct-only votes for a forfeit, requires that argument points be awarded as a prerequisite to awarding all other points.

If you believe someone should be able to vote ONLY conduct points because of a forfeit or multiple forfeits, vote NAY.

I also think full-forfeit debates should be allowed to be voted on 4-0 against the forfeiter for conduct and argument points, so I dont really like this option either.

Full-forfeited debates are the exception. We don't moderate those at all (aside from if the voter votes for the wrong side).
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1harderthanyouthink
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3/20/2016 8:08:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:56:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think that if there is only one forfeit in 4 or 5 rounds of debate, it would be wrong just to award the conduct without addressing arguments. But, if there are multiple forfeits, or if there is a forfeit in a shorter debate, then awarding the conduct point is fine.
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airmax1227
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3/20/2016 8:08:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 8:05:11 PM, bsh1 wrote:
When a debater forfeits multiple times, I am less sympathetic. I think, in forfeit situations, we should recognize that sometimes giving args is necessary, sometimes it's not.

I believe that is entirely valid.
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imabench
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3/20/2016 8:10:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 8:07:25 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 8:00:11 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/20/2016 7:55:07 PM, airmax1227 wrote:

So, if you are in favor of having voters award argument points as a prerequisite to awarding any other points, vote YAY.

Ive voted on debates where both sides were either equally great or equally sh*tty that no side could truly win argument points. Would this rule make that illegal, or does this apply only to debates that have been partially or fully forfeited, rather then apply to all debates? Just to be clear

It would apply to all debates.

VOTE NAY
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airmax1227
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3/20/2016 8:11:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 8:00:45 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/20/2016 7:52:54 PM, Vaarka wrote:
The problem with this is if I say nay, then what is currently happening will continue. If I say yay, then rounds where someone actually did just sit there, say "I accept", and then extend until the debate ended, then you'd have to vote for FF (this would be a justified ff vote), plus another.

But I feel like saying yay would be the better choice. I can't vote anyway, but whatever XP

I agree with this... There is no good option.

I happen to agree, but this is the only practical policy change that has been suggested to this point, so at the demand of TUF I am taking his cause to the logical next level and directly finding a way to implement his agenda - assuming that there is enough actual support for it.

Do you feel that there is a better policy change that could fix the issue TUF has described with conduct-only votes on forfeited debates?
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airmax1227
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3/20/2016 8:15:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 8:02:15 PM, Vaarka wrote:

I know it may sound strange, and I don't know if it's even possible, but what if we removed the "tied" buttons, or maybe added text boxes onto each of the 7 points where you give a short reason for why you're voting that person for it. I know you already do that at the bottom of RFV, but if there was instead one RFV for each one, then you'd have to give a reason, which would mean you'd have to actually read it in order to put something.
I feel like this would at least help narrow down the votes that need deleting vs votes that are legit. Just an idea I'm throwing out there for now.

If coding changes to the site weren't an obstacle most of this wouldn't even be necessary. I appreciate your suggestion, and believe me this idea and many like it have been on the idea list for years, it is outside of the scope of this discussion.
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airmax1227
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3/20/2016 8:17:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
YAY

Emmarie

NAY


Briannj17
imabench
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Vaarka
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3/20/2016 8:18:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 8:15:10 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/20/2016 8:02:15 PM, Vaarka wrote:

I know it may sound strange, and I don't know if it's even possible, but what if we removed the "tied" buttons, or maybe added text boxes onto each of the 7 points where you give a short reason for why you're voting that person for it. I know you already do that at the bottom of RFV, but if there was instead one RFV for each one, then you'd have to give a reason, which would mean you'd have to actually read it in order to put something.
I feel like this would at least help narrow down the votes that need deleting vs votes that are legit. Just an idea I'm throwing out there for now.

If coding changes to the site weren't an obstacle most of this wouldn't even be necessary. I appreciate your suggestion, and believe me this idea and many like it have been on the idea list for years, it is outside of the scope of this discussion.

Yeah...
We just need someone on DDO to go work for juggle and get to the point where he can occasionally go in and fix stuff during his lunch break or something.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCat: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
tajshar2k
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3/20/2016 8:30:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2016 7:40:59 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
An issue has been raised about awarding a single conduct point for debates with forfeited rounds. A lot of discussion has occurred and I would like to move forward with this in a way that best gauges where concerned members stand on this.

The only way suggested to combat this, is to adopt a policy that forces a member to also award and explain Argument points if they are going award conduct (or any points).

If you agree with this change of policy please post a "Yay" in this thread.

If you believe that voters should be able to only award conduct when a forfeit occurs, please post "Nay" in this thread.

Nay.