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Updating the Leaderboard

fire_wings
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3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?
bsh1
Posts: 28,166
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3/22/2016 5:35:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Back when I ran against Debate, I argued that we should get Juggle to have two leaderboards per category: a current one, showing only members that had logged in in the last year, and a historical one, showing all data.

There is something valuable about preserving the history of the site in the way the leaderboards do, and, more to the point, those people earned their spots on it. Should we erase all their efforts just because they left?

Unfortunately, Juggle is in such a position right now that it is unlikely to act on any proposal regarding this.
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lannan13
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3/22/2016 5:36:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Uhm... No we wouldn't. Just because they left doesn't mean their records should be gone. Is because Babe Ruth is dead should we automatically erase his Home-run records?
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fire_wings
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3/22/2016 5:37:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:36:10 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Uhm... No we wouldn't. Just because they left doesn't mean their records should be gone. Is because Babe Ruth is dead should we automatically erase his Home-run records?

Not removing the records. Just putting them aside. In the leaderboard in the baseball leagues now of 2015, is there Babe Ruth? no.
Romaniii
Posts: 421
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3/22/2016 5:39:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why? The leaderboard is worthless... people like Tejretics, Hayd, Tajshar, and ColeTrain are fine debaters, but when the leaderboard ranks them above people like Raisor and FourTrouble, you have to question whether its results are meaningful at all.
bsh1
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3/22/2016 5:41:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:39:52 PM, Romaniii wrote:
Why? The leaderboard is worthless... people like Tejretics, Hayd, Tajshar, and ColeTrain are fine debaters, but when the leaderboard ranks them above people like Raisor and FourTrouble, you have to question whether its results are meaningful at all.

IDK...the leaderboard can give a general/proximate estimate of someone's skill. Sure, there are outliers, and sure, it is a "general sense" not a "precise ranking," but that doesn't make it useless.
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fire_wings
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3/22/2016 5:42:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:35:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Back when I ran against Debate, I argued that we should get Juggle to have two leaderboards per category: a current one, showing only members that had logged in in the last year, and a historical one, showing all data.

There is something valuable about preserving the history of the site in the way the leaderboards do, and, more to the point, those people earned their spots on it. Should we erase all their efforts just because they left?

Unfortunately, Juggle is in such a position right now that it is unlikely to act on any proposal regarding this.

Good idea.
TBR
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3/22/2016 6:12:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Well, to me, the ELO system could get a bunch of updates. There is a bit of math I was working on when I thought there was any chance of anything getting tech updates. The idea was to have older debates start to effect the ELO score with less and less impact. It would show growth of debate skill, and start to remove older/expired debaters from the board. The "old score" could say for posterity, but the newer score would be a better / more useful thing for current (you know - actual users).

The idea did not resonate, and it pointless anyway with inability to get any updates acted on. Sorry.
lannan13
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3/22/2016 6:12:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 6:12:09 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Well, to me, the ELO system could get a bunch of updates. There is a bit of math I was working on when I thought there was any chance of anything getting tech updates. The idea was to have older debates start to effect the ELO score with less and less impact. It would show growth of debate skill, and start to remove older/expired debaters from the board. The "old score" could say for posterity, but the newer score would be a better / more useful thing for current (you know - actual users).

The idea did not resonate, and it pointless anyway with inability to get any updates acted on. Sorry.

I love that idea.
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famousdebater
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3/22/2016 6:12:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

We haven't been able to get Juggle to co-operate for ages. I doubt that they'll come back and make this change especially due to this one request for change.
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TBR
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3/22/2016 6:17:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 6:12:46 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:09 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Well, to me, the ELO system could get a bunch of updates. There is a bit of math I was working on when I thought there was any chance of anything getting tech updates. The idea was to have older debates start to effect the ELO score with less and less impact. It would show growth of debate skill, and start to remove older/expired debaters from the board. The "old score" could say for posterity, but the newer score would be a better / more useful thing for current (you know - actual users).

The idea did not resonate, and it pointless anyway with inability to get any updates acted on. Sorry.

I love that idea.

Yea, I think you were commenting on it when I first floated the idea. Someone like you would be greatly effected by some improvement to the algorithm. I am not picking on the creator of the current one, only saying we could do a lot more with it, knowing better some of the issues we now know of. Things like a better way to balance "punching up" - debating over your head. Or, for that matter, giving little to no ELO for punching down. If you were to accept and loose a "noob snipe" debate and loose, the penitent would be harsh, and a win very little reward.

Anyway. As noted. Not going to happen.
bsh1
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3/22/2016 6:26:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 6:12:46 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:09 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Well, to me, the ELO system could get a bunch of updates. There is a bit of math I was working on when I thought there was any chance of anything getting tech updates. The idea was to have older debates start to effect the ELO score with less and less impact. It would show growth of debate skill, and start to remove older/expired debaters from the board. The "old score" could say for posterity, but the newer score would be a better / more useful thing for current (you know - actual users).

The idea did not resonate, and it pointless anyway with inability to get any updates acted on. Sorry.

I love that idea.

The problem is it would phase out older members from the ELO board entirely, and it would mean that people would have to constantly debate to keep their position.

The ELO board should reflect skill. Suppose we have a user like FT and a user like Dairygirl. If FT took a long enough break, and if Dairygirl did enough debates, she could rank higher than him simply because all of his scores had faded out. TBR's proposal does less to reflect skill level and more to reflect recency of debates.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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TBR
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3/22/2016 6:35:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 6:26:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:46 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:09 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Well, to me, the ELO system could get a bunch of updates. There is a bit of math I was working on when I thought there was any chance of anything getting tech updates. The idea was to have older debates start to effect the ELO score with less and less impact. It would show growth of debate skill, and start to remove older/expired debaters from the board. The "old score" could say for posterity, but the newer score would be a better / more useful thing for current (you know - actual users).

The idea did not resonate, and it pointless anyway with inability to get any updates acted on. Sorry.

I love that idea.

The problem is it would phase out older members from the ELO board entirely, and it would mean that people would have to constantly debate to keep their position.

Yes, people who stop debating would loose ELO as they don't debate. the old could be kept, but I would guess few would look (sort) by historic ELO - not for users that are no longer active anyway.


The ELO board should reflect skill. Suppose we have a user like FT and a user like Dairygirl. If FT took a long enough break, and if Dairygirl did enough debates, she could rank higher than him simply because all of his scores had faded out. TBR's proposal does less to reflect skill level and more to reflect recency of debates.

If you "take a break", yea you are loosing points. Inactivity in your credit activity lowers your FICO, not a strange concept.
TBR
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3/22/2016 7:04:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 6:26:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:46 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:09 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Well, to me, the ELO system could get a bunch of updates. There is a bit of math I was working on when I thought there was any chance of anything getting tech updates. The idea was to have older debates start to effect the ELO score with less and less impact. It would show growth of debate skill, and start to remove older/expired debaters from the board. The "old score" could say for posterity, but the newer score would be a better / more useful thing for current (you know - actual users).

The idea did not resonate, and it pointless anyway with inability to get any updates acted on. Sorry.

I love that idea.

The problem is it would phase out older members from the ELO board entirely, and it would mean that people would have to constantly debate to keep their position.

The ELO board should reflect skill. Suppose we have a user like FT and a user like Dairygirl. If FT took a long enough break, and if Dairygirl did enough debates, she could rank higher than him simply because all of his scores had faded out. TBR's proposal does less to reflect skill level and more to reflect recency of debates.

I don't know why I am tasking any brain cells on this, knowing it has no chance of happening but... Know what. I think I could make this work both ways very successfully. All you would need is a "top ELO achieved". Rather than keep the old score running (still could I guess), just a topped out field would accomplish the same or better results.
TBR
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3/22/2016 7:28:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:37:49 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:36:10 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Uhm... No we wouldn't. Just because they left doesn't mean their records should be gone. Is because Babe Ruth is dead should we automatically erase his Home-run records?

Not removing the records. Just putting them aside. In the leaderboard in the baseball leagues now of 2015, is there Babe Ruth? no.

That, exactly, is right. The way it is now mixes every player who ever played with the active players. It is not as useful as where you stand with the current field.

Again, not going to change, but sure could use some work to update.
ColeTrain
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3/22/2016 8:55:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:39:52 PM, Romaniii wrote:
Why? The leaderboard is worthless... people like Tejretics, Hayd, Tajshar, and ColeTrain are fine debaters, but when the leaderboard ranks them above people like Raisor and FourTrouble, you have to question whether its results are meaningful at all.

Awww. ;P
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PetersSmith
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3/22/2016 9:05:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Any sort of "update" to the site is impossible at this point.
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imabench
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3/22/2016 10:22:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 9:05:38 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Any sort of "update" to the site is impossible at this point.
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Maikuru
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3/22/2016 11:07:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:39:52 PM, Romaniii wrote:
Why? The leaderboard is worthless... people like Tejretics, Hayd, Tajshar, and ColeTrain are fine debaters, but when the leaderboard ranks them above people like Raisor and FourTrouble, you have to question whether its results are meaningful at all.

The fact that anyone is above me should have us all doubting.
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imabench
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3/22/2016 11:18:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 11:07:12 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:39:52 PM, Romaniii wrote:
Why? The leaderboard is worthless... people like Tejretics, Hayd, Tajshar, and ColeTrain are fine debaters, but when the leaderboard ranks them above people like Raisor and FourTrouble, you have to question whether its results are meaningful at all.

The fact that anyone is above me should have us all doubting.

Same here
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Hayd
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3/22/2016 11:21:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 11:07:12 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:39:52 PM, Romaniii wrote:
Why? The leaderboard is worthless... people like Tejretics, Hayd, Tajshar, and ColeTrain are fine debaters, but when the leaderboard ranks them above people like Raisor and FourTrouble, you have to question whether its results are meaningful at all.

The fact that anyone is above me should have us all doubting.

rofl
NothingSpecial99
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3/22/2016 11:27:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Can someone give me an idea as to why Juggle basically does nothing to maintain or improve this site? Are they incapable of doing it due to financial situation or they just genuinely don't care?
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U.n
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3/23/2016 12:36:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 11:27:10 PM, NothingSpecial99 wrote:
Can someone give me an idea as to why Juggle basically does nothing to maintain or improve this site? Are they incapable of doing it due to financial situation or they just genuinely don't care?

Debate sites aren't big revenue sources.

And the regulars rarely click on ad links anyway - not to mention many of the regulars will keep showing up even if the site does slowly break down - so they're not properly incentivized to fix anything.
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TBR
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3/23/2016 3:28:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2016 12:36:12 PM, U.n wrote:
At 3/22/2016 11:27:10 PM, NothingSpecial99 wrote:
Can someone give me an idea as to why Juggle basically does nothing to maintain or improve this site? Are they incapable of doing it due to financial situation or they just genuinely don't care?

Debate sites aren't big revenue sources.

And the regulars rarely click on ad links anyway - not to mention many of the regulars will keep showing up even if the site does slowly break down - so they're not properly incentivized to fix anything.

1) The site has plenty of traffic (aside from the regulars)
2) It is NOT the fault of the userbase that the company can't properly monetize their own property.
3) By not addressing the technical issues, they are wasting money and hampering growth.
lannan13
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3/23/2016 3:30:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 6:26:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:46 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:09 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Well, to me, the ELO system could get a bunch of updates. There is a bit of math I was working on when I thought there was any chance of anything getting tech updates. The idea was to have older debates start to effect the ELO score with less and less impact. It would show growth of debate skill, and start to remove older/expired debaters from the board. The "old score" could say for posterity, but the newer score would be a better / more useful thing for current (you know - actual users).

The idea did not resonate, and it pointless anyway with inability to get any updates acted on. Sorry.

I love that idea.

The problem is it would phase out older members from the ELO board entirely, and it would mean that people would have to constantly debate to keep their position.

The ELO board should reflect skill. Suppose we have a user like FT and a user like Dairygirl. If FT took a long enough break, and if Dairygirl did enough debates, she could rank higher than him simply because all of his scores had faded out. TBR's proposal does less to reflect skill level and more to reflect recency of debates.

I think what he's talking about is after a certain time per debate. Like say the cut off is 100 debates. When a debater hits 101, his ELO is no longer affected by debate 1. FT wouldn't be touched by this since he's under this number.
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TBR
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3/23/2016 5:28:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2016 3:30:24 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:26:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:46 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 6:12:09 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/22/2016 5:32:13 PM, fire_wings wrote:
Can we update the leaderboard? The old people who weren't on the site for 2 years are still on the front page. Can we make these people out of the leaderboard, so the new people like me can go close?

Well, to me, the ELO system could get a bunch of updates. There is a bit of math I was working on when I thought there was any chance of anything getting tech updates. The idea was to have older debates start to effect the ELO score with less and less impact. It would show growth of debate skill, and start to remove older/expired debaters from the board. The "old score" could say for posterity, but the newer score would be a better / more useful thing for current (you know - actual users).

The idea did not resonate, and it pointless anyway with inability to get any updates acted on. Sorry.

I love that idea.

The problem is it would phase out older members from the ELO board entirely, and it would mean that people would have to constantly debate to keep their position.

The ELO board should reflect skill. Suppose we have a user like FT and a user like Dairygirl. If FT took a long enough break, and if Dairygirl did enough debates, she could rank higher than him simply because all of his scores had faded out. TBR's proposal does less to reflect skill level and more to reflect recency of debates.

I think what he's talking about is after a certain time per debate. Like say the cut off is 100 debates. When a debater hits 101, his ELO is no longer affected by debate 1. FT wouldn't be touched by this since he's under this number.

I would lay this out again, but it is simply academic. No chance to change anything.

It could be very cool. The fear of "loosing ELO" is nonsense in the face of what would be gained. There is no good use in cluttering the board for sake of vanity of users long gone.
donald.keller
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3/23/2016 8:07:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2016 5:35:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Back when I ran against Debate, I argued that we should get Juggle to have two leaderboards per category: a current one, showing only members that had logged in in the last year, and a historical one, showing all data.

I completely agree with this idea... Every part of it is the same as the idea I always had.

There is something valuable about preserving the history of the site in the way the leaderboards do, and, more to the point, those people earned their spots on it. Should we erase all their efforts just because they left?

Unfortunately, Juggle is in such a position right now that it is unlikely to act on any proposal regarding this.
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