Total Posts:70|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The Role of a DDO President

bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
This post simply outlines why I think the office of the DDO Presidency should be retained, not abolished. I am not interested in getting into a huge debate over this; rather, after more than 9 months in the office, I wanted to briefly reflect on some of my thoughts on why this job matters and is useful. I am not going to get into an analysis of the alleged "con's" of the Presidency; I just want to provide a firsthand account of the "pro's" of the office.

While the Presidency can entail many varied responsibilities, some of which I didn't predict, there are several core functions of the office that I can identify. These are the core functions I will discuss in this post:

- Liaison to Juggle
- Liaison/Counterbalance to Moderation
- Community Organizer
- Town Crier
- Community Ambassador

The first of these is often the most discussed duty of the President, and is seen as the President's chief responsibility. It would be objectively wrong to describe Juggle as "engaged" with the site, and this lack of engagement causes this first plinth to fall by the wayside. But, this is not, as I see it, a reason to do away with the office for 2 reasons. Firstly, it is impossible to predict when Juggle will resurrect its interest in the site. For this reason, we should always have someone standing ready to engage with them, lest we miss a window of opportunity, or we waste time trying to capitalize on that engagement. Secondly, the loss of this one duty does not preclude the President from carrying out his or her other duties, and these duties alone provide some utility for the office.

The next job in the list, Liaison/Counterbalance to Moderation, is particularly interesting. The President does not simply talk to Juggle, they also lobby moderation to make changes, too. For instance, the opt-in voting program that I pursued required me to negotiate with moderation to enact the policy. This back-and-forth produced a tangible result, and, whether or not you like the policy, it shows that the President can bring about change by working in partnership with moderation.

As for the latter part of that role--that of a counterweight to moderation--there are two components to this. The first is that the President has certain, albeit limited, tools with which to counter the power of moderation, including their mandate and the bully pulpit. The President is non-moderation a figure around which people can coalesce, and there is a lot of symbolism in that. If moderation doesn't have the support of the Presidency, or is vocally opposed by the President, it becomes harder, both in socio-political capital and in terms of community cooperation, for the moderator to implement their policies. Max is acutely aware of the need to be seen as legitimate in order to function on the site; that is one reason why he discusses issues that trouble the community (like forfeits and voting)--he wants to address these problems so they don't erode the socio-political capital he needs to do his job. Also, moderators and Presidents develop working relationships which can help them work together to resolve controversies or disputes.

The second counterbalancing point is that Presidential elections help to screen future moderators. F16 offered some excellent analysis here: "Innomen when he was the president acted as a liason with Juggle (which was the president's job) and when he got to know the Juggle employees, they gave him mod powers. I doubt that would have happened if he wasn't an elected liason. When Innomen recommended Airmax, the mod powers passed to him. But Airmax was also elected as president before receiving mod powers. It's true that the current Juggle liason can just pick someone else and request that they be the next mod but it's an inferior system to having someone who is both recommended for the mod job and elected by the memberbase having that position. For instance, Airmax saw through Mikal even when he was running despite the userbase not seeing through him. So, both mod recommendation and user votes should be considered when determining the next mod. User votes only become relevant if we continue the presidency every six months." [http://www.debate.org...] I should also add that Blade was elected President before becoming a moderator.

So, now I will get to the pillar I focused on personally: community organizing. Having a point-person, so to speak, to organize community action is incredibly useful, IMO. For all the complaints I received when the forums were in the doldrums (activity-wise), no one took any particular action to address the problem. However, I was willing to organize a forum revival program. Whether or not you liked the program, it did generally receive positive reviews and I think it illustrates how having a person who is obligated, in virtue of their office, to help the community is beneficial. The sense of obligation I had and have as a result of this office motivates me to do things that I would not do as a private member; to be frank, I would not do the vast majority of things I do now were I not President, simply because I would feel as if the onus had been shifted from me to someone else.

While there are always those extraordinary members who are willing to undertake projects or organize group action, I do not think these members are numerous enough, or that community activism is vibrant enough, that it could replace the office of the President in this capacity. There is also, I think, a benefit in being able to call certain initiatives "official," because it gains them more attention and prestige, particularly with newer users. This makes it easier for a President to get people involved with their programs.

The next duty, that of Town Crier, I will address only fleetingly. Moderation updates are infrequent, and there really isn't anywhere on the site that aggregates information about activities, goings-on, updates, good debates/polls/etc for people to check out, and so forth. The Presidency, through updates in the forums and the bulletin in the debates section, can serve to be a source of reliable information about these and other things. In this way, the Presidency is a source of information for the community.

The final duty that I think the President does and can continue to perform is that of a Community Ambassador. By this I mean that the President is uniquely situated to serve as a point of outreach and information to new users. The President, by virtue of the office, has an air of credibility that allows noobs to trust, to a greater extent, the information a President provides them. The office also brings noobs to me, and many noobs have, during my time in office, approached me with various problems that they have encountered because they believe that I can work with them to solve the problems. I cannot always help them, but sometimes I can do directly, and other times I can refer them to someone else who is more knowledgeable or in a position to help them. Also, when an official of the site, like a President or someone in a Presidential administration, can greet a noob, it carries a lot more welcoming gravitas than a welcome message from a regular user. And, again, I would seriously doubt that many other users would act in this capacity if not obligated to do so by the duties of the office.

Finally, while this is not a responsibility or job of the President, it is worth mentioning that the Presidency often serves as a focal point for necessary debate. The various platforms and candidates and the discussions around them help communicate the site's vision for its future. This is a necessary debate to have on a regular basis, and the Presidency serves as a useful catalyst for this debate.

Anyway, thank you for reading my musings on the subject. I am sure we're all looking forward to an interesting election cycle, and that it doesn't start *too* soon :)
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,291
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 4:28:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 5:37:38 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 4:28:29 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR

It makes lots of points. Basically, the Presidency is a useful office. You should read it though; everyone should. I think it's a reasoned argument for the position I hold.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,291
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 5:54:52 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 5:37:38 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:28:29 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR

It makes lots of points. Basically, the Presidency is a useful office. You should read it though; everyone should. I think it's a reasoned argument for the position I hold.

I see. Maybe I will. :)
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 5:56:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 5:54:52 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 3/31/2016 5:37:38 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:28:29 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR

It makes lots of points. Basically, the Presidency is a useful office. You should read it though; everyone should. I think it's a reasoned argument for the position I hold.

I see. Maybe I will. :)

Okie dokie.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,354
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:03:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
#DOWNWITHTHEPRESIDENCY nac
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:05:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
This post simply outlines why I think the office of the DDO Presidency should be retained, not abolished. I am not interested in getting into a huge debate over this; rather, after more than 9 months in the office, I wanted to briefly reflect on some of my thoughts on why this job matters and is useful. I am not going to get into an analysis of the alleged "con's" of the Presidency; I just want to provide a firsthand account of the "pro's" of the office.

While the Presidency can entail many varied responsibilities, some of which I didn't predict, there are several core functions of the office that I can identify. These are the core functions I will discuss in this post:

- Liaison to Juggle

Not only is Juggle is not interested in the site and have no discernible role in the upkeep or updating of the site, but Juggle goes to the mod first before anyone else when seeing an opinion on the affairs of the site..... The presidency is far inferior to the mod when it comes to communicating with Juggle, and when Juggle isnt even active in the first place, this aspect of the Presidency becomes as nonexistent as it was unimportant to begin with

- Liaison/Counterbalance to Moderation

The idea that the president can counterbalance the mod is as unfounded as it is retarded. There is nothing that a president can do to definitively stop a mod from doing something, whether it comes to a new policy, banning a member, or deleting a thread. The President is a glorified advisory role to the mod more then a counterbalance to the mod.

- Community Organizer
- Town Crier
- Community Ambassador

all of those is simply a list of made up sh** that is just a sad attempt to justify the role of the presidency.....
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:07:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 4:28:29 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR

The Presidency is useless except to those who believe otherwise, who will then overemphasize the power the president actually has when they arent making up fabricated roles the president serves to try to sell their beliefs to those who are ignorant of how useless the presidency has been.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,291
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:08:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:07:05 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:28:29 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR

The Presidency is useless except to those who believe otherwise, who will then overemphasize the power the president actually has when they arent making up fabricated roles the president serves to try to sell their beliefs to those who are ignorant of how useless the presidency has been.

Lol.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:11:48 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:07:05 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:28:29 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR

The Presidency is useless except to those who believe otherwise, who will then overemphasize the power the president actually has when they arent making up fabricated roles the president serves to try to sell their beliefs to those who are ignorant of how useless the presidency has been.

So if it is useless, what's the harm?
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:18:33 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:11:48 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:07:05 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/31/2016 4:28:29 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR

The Presidency is useless except to those who believe otherwise, who will then overemphasize the power the president actually has when they arent making up fabricated roles the president serves to try to sell their beliefs to those who are ignorant of how useless the presidency has been.

So if it is useless, what's the harm?

The harm is that there are better options worth utilizing than a useless presidency system. Why keep a lamp that is useless and doesnt work when you can get a different lamp that actually lights up?
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:28:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:18:33 PM, imabench wrote:
The harm is that there are better options worth utilizing than a useless presidency system. Why keep a lamp that is useless and doesnt work when you can get a different lamp that actually lights up?

If I'm right, the presidency can be beneficial (in the event we elect the right person like TUF). If you are completely correct, then there is no benefit or harm either way.

You said something in the other thread about the presidency stopping you from implementing your ideas. How does it do this. Can you provide example where you tried to get something awesome done and the president stopped you from doing this?

If your primary reason to abolish the presidency is that you have a better system, sell the system. Suggesting that the presidency is "useless" isn't convincing me to remove it because it comes at no cost. It's not analogous to a lamp that takes up space in your house. You literally don't have to do anything for the presidency to continue. You can leave the drama and other stuff up to the people who are actually interested. You don't even have to bother voting. So, how again is the presidency hurting you in any possible way?
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:36:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:28:26 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:18:33 PM, imabench wrote:
The harm is that there are better options worth utilizing than a useless presidency system. Why keep a lamp that is useless and doesnt work when you can get a different lamp that actually lights up?

If I'm right, the presidency can be beneficial (in the event we elect the right person like TUF). If you are completely correct, then there is no benefit or harm either way.

Except there is harm, as I have explained in previous posts that you keep deciding to not address

You said something in the other thread about the presidency stopping you from implementing your ideas.

Evidently you misread my posts in addition to not giving a direct response.

My argument was that in order for an idea to be implemented on this site, a person has to come up with an idea, and then wait until a presidential candidate decides to campaign on it by making it part of his platform. Then they have to get elected on top of it. If a President campaigns on an idea and doesnt get elected, or if the president doesnt even choose to campaign on an idea for a reform in the first place, then the idea goes nowhere, and the presidency can be blamed for this result since the presidency is supposed to serve as a vehicle for change, and it failed to do its job.

If your primary reason to abolish the presidency is that you have a better system, sell the system. Suggesting that the presidency is "useless" isn't convincing me to remove it because it comes at no cost.

Except there is a cost, you just get hung up on demanding examples.

So, how again is the presidency hurting you in any possible way?

Again, respond to my actual points
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:42:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:36:25 PM, imabench wrote:
My argument was that in order for an idea to be implemented on this site, a person has to come up with an idea, and then wait until a presidential candidate decides to campaign on it by making it part of his platform. Then they have to get elected on top of it. If a President campaigns on an idea and doesnt get elected, or if the president doesnt even choose to campaign on an idea for a reform in the first place, then the idea goes nowhere, and the presidency can be blamed for this result since the presidency is supposed to serve as a vehicle for change, and it failed to do its job.

I disagree with all of this. This isn't true.

For example: TUF is about to get a new voting proposal passed and he's not the president.

What is an example of an idea that you wanted passed that you weren't able to?

Is this the "harm," you were talking about? If not, would you mind linking me to the post where you talked about the harm besides this and drama?

Again, respond to my actual points

I'd like you to quote your "actual" points so I can respond to them. I currently have no idea what they are. You were the one who didn't respond in the other thread when I asked you to give me examples where the presidency stopped you from implementing something. You are just asserting that it is the case but that isn't true.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:48:49 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:05:14 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I am going to try to address your uncivil remarks respectfully. You may dislike the idea, but that is no reason you cannot engage in a reasonable manner with other people.

- Liaison to Juggle

Not only is Juggle is not interested in the site and have no discernible role in the upkeep or updating of the site

I am not sure you read the argument. I noted that it is impossible to predict when Juggle may become interested in the site. Having a person in the office means that we will have a point-person in place whenever they do decide to reengage.

but Juggle goes to the mod first before anyone else when seeing an opinion on the affairs of the site....

Juggle goes to the mod to discuss moderation and bug issues, but to the President for site updates. We can look at an historical example of success in terms of the President working with Juggle, namely TUF, who was able to effect reforms to the voting system. These were measures that he brought to the table as President, as a representative of the voters who had endorsed his platform and ideas for reform.

- Liaison/Counterbalance to Moderation

There is nothing that a president can do to definitively stop a mod from doing something, whether it comes to a new policy, banning a member, or deleting a thread.

You are conflating soft and hard power. Just because soft power is soft, does not mean it does not exist. Hard power is not the only power of value.

And, again, it's not simply about counterbalancing, but also liaising with, moderation.

- Community Organizer
- Town Crier
- Community Ambassador

all of those is simply a list of made up sh** that is just a sad attempt to justify the role of the presidency.....

Not really, and I explained why in the OP. Readers are free to make up their own minds.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:54:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:42:23 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:36:25 PM, imabench wrote:
My argument was that in order for an idea to be implemented on this site, a person has to come up with an idea, and then wait until a presidential candidate decides to campaign on it by making it part of his platform. Then they have to get elected on top of it. If a President campaigns on an idea and doesnt get elected, or if the president doesnt even choose to campaign on an idea for a reform in the first place, then the idea goes nowhere, and the presidency can be blamed for this result since the presidency is supposed to serve as a vehicle for change, and it failed to do its job.

I disagree with all of this. This isn't true.

For example: TUF is about to get a new voting proposal passed and he's not the president.

His proposal dealt with vote moderation which is under the authority of the mods, not the president. Proposals about mod lists, community outreach, etc are the ones that have to go through the presidency to be implemented.... For things regarding moderation, thats something the mod decides (Free of intervention from the presidency I might add)

What is an example of an idea that you wanted passed that you weren't able to?

lol, again youre try to beat the dead horse with a stick and keep missing the point. Let me spell this out for you so you can get it through your head

I have never once said that I personally have had ideas that presidents chose not to campaign on.

Again, respond to my actual points

I'd like you to quote your "actual" points so I can respond to them. I currently have no idea what they are. You were the one who didn't respond in the other thread when I asked you to give me examples where the presidency stopped you from implementing something.

Cause I never claimed that the presidency has stopped me personally or one of my ideas personally like you keep claiming I have. The reason I didnt respond to your post is because you keep trying to steer the conversation to a different arguement rather then stay on topic.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Romaniii
Posts: 421
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:54:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:11:48 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

So if it is useless, what's the harm?

There isn't any real harm (unless over-regulation counts, which is debatable). The main impetus for the abolition movement is that it's just annoying when the presidency is taken too seriously, which makes people want to do away with it as an institution. As long as Juggle is dead, the *only* benefit of the presidency's existence is that it could potentially motivate the elected member himself to try doing more stuff for the community, but that's a relatively minor opportunity cost. For people who are genuinely annoyed by all the rules & mock government stemming from the presidency, the opportunity cost is outweighed. Both sides of the abolition 'issue' are rooted in rather trivial concerns
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 6:58:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:54:24 PM, Romaniii wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:11:48 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

So if it is useless, what's the harm?

There isn't any real harm (unless over-regulation counts, which is debatable). The main impetus for the abolition movement is that it's just annoying when the presidency is taken too seriously, which makes people want to do away with it as an institution. As long as Juggle is dead, the *only* benefit of the presidency's existence is that it could potentially motivate the elected member himself to try doing more stuff for the community, but that's a relatively minor opportunity cost. For people who are genuinely annoyed by all the rules & mock government stemming from the presidency, the opportunity cost is outweighed. Both sides of the abolition 'issue' are rooted in rather trivial concerns

But there is no real cost since participation isn't mandatory. You can decide to ignore threads about the presidency if they annoy you.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:00:28 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:48:49 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:05:14 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I am going to try to address your uncivil remarks respectfully. You may dislike the idea, but that is no reason you cannot engage in a reasonable manner with other people.

People disagreeing with you doesnt make them uncivil. Try to get that through your head.

- Liaison to Juggle

Not only is Juggle is not interested in the site and have no discernible role in the upkeep or updating of the site

I am not sure you read the argument. I noted that it is impossible to predict when Juggle may become interested in the site.

If the last 2 and a half years or so are any indication, I can bet that Juggle wont become interested in the site again today, tomorrow, next week, or next month with 100% certainty. When it comes to betting it will become interested in the site again by the end of the year, the odds drop to 90% certainty.

Having a person in the office means that we will have a point-person in place whenever they do decide to reengage.

And we can always decide to bring back the presidency if that day comes (which wont be any time soon)

but Juggle goes to the mod first before anyone else when seeing an opinion on the affairs of the site....

Juggle goes to the mod to discuss moderation and bug issues, but to the President for site updates. We can look at an historical example of success in terms of the President working with Juggle, namely TUF, who was able to effect reforms to the voting system.

TUF of which was president before you, and debateability, and OreEle, and Mikal, and I believe the person before Mikal as well.....

- Liaison/Counterbalance to Moderation

There is nothing that a president can do to definitively stop a mod from doing something, whether it comes to a new policy, banning a member, or deleting a thread.

You are conflating soft and hard power. Just because soft power is soft, does not mean it does not exist.

When its soft to the point that its non-existent, then its non-existent.

- Community Organizer
- Town Crier
- Community Ambassador

all of those is simply a list of made up sh** that is just a sad attempt to justify the role of the presidency.....

Not really, and I explained why in the OP. Readers are free to make up their own minds.

And they will hopefully come to the rational conclusion that those examples are complete bs
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:03:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:54:23 PM, imabench wrote:

@Bench - you are the one arguing that the only way that a member can implement something is if a president campaigns on that platform therefore the presidency shouldn't exist because it creates a middle-man.

I proved that wrong by pointing out that TUF as a regular member is about to get a voting reform implemented with no intervention or obstruction from the president.

I then asked you for examples to support your assertion but you keep insisting that you have none, and that your argument is purely theoretical. Except, it's wrong because users can and do implement reforms with or without the aid of the presidency.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:04:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:58:19 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:54:24 PM, Romaniii wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:11:48 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

So if it is useless, what's the harm?

There isn't any real harm (unless over-regulation counts, which is debatable). The main impetus for the abolition movement is that it's just annoying when the presidency is taken too seriously, which makes people want to do away with it as an institution. As long as Juggle is dead, the *only* benefit of the presidency's existence is that it could potentially motivate the elected member himself to try doing more stuff for the community, but that's a relatively minor opportunity cost. For people who are genuinely annoyed by all the rules & mock government stemming from the presidency, the opportunity cost is outweighed. Both sides of the abolition 'issue' are rooted in rather trivial concerns

But there is no real cost since participation isn't mandatory. You can decide to ignore threads about the presidency if they annoy you.

its easy to say that when you're not the one annoyed by it though. If it were me saying something like 'you can decide to ignore claims that Bsh has been bullied by you in threads if it annoys you', you would be on the opposing side of that claim.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:05:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:54:23 PM, imabench wrote:
His proposal dealt with vote moderation which is under the authority of the mods, not the president.

I misread this bit.

Proposals about mod lists, community outreach, etc are the ones that have to go through the presidency to be implemented....

Not necessarily. Says who?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:07:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 7:04:39 PM, imabench wrote:
its easy to say that when you're not the one annoyed by it though. If it were me saying something like 'you can decide to ignore claims that Bsh has been bullied by you in threads if it annoys you', you would be on the opposing side of that claim.

The presidency doesn't actively bother you in any way though.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:08:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 7:03:25 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:54:23 PM, imabench wrote:

@Bench - you are the one arguing that the only way that a member can implement something is if a president campaigns on that platform therefore the presidency shouldn't exist because it creates a middle-man.

I proved that wrong by pointing out that TUF as a regular member is about to get a voting reform implemented with no intervention or obstruction from the president.

Vote moderation isnt something that is under authority of the president, its under the authority of the mods, so the mods themselves had threads to discuss and vote on a proposal without the president because vote mdoeration is under the jurisdiction of the mods, not the president.

I then asked you for examples to support your assertion but you keep insisting that you have none,

You asked for examples of me personally being thwarted by the presidential process.

Except, it's wrong because users can and do implement reforms with or without the aid of the presidency.

Name one proposal not related to moderation that a person has pushed on the site without the need for the president to approve it, campaign on it, or hold a vote for it
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Romaniii
Posts: 421
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:08:24 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 6:58:19 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:54:24 PM, Romaniii wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:11:48 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

So if it is useless, what's the harm?

There isn't any real harm (unless over-regulation counts, which is debatable). The main impetus for the abolition movement is that it's just annoying when the presidency is taken too seriously, which makes people want to do away with it as an institution. As long as Juggle is dead, the *only* benefit of the presidency's existence is that it could potentially motivate the elected member himself to try doing more stuff for the community, but that's a relatively minor opportunity cost. For people who are genuinely annoyed by all the rules & mock government stemming from the presidency, the opportunity cost is outweighed. Both sides of the abolition 'issue' are rooted in rather trivial concerns

But there is no real cost since participation isn't mandatory. You can decide to ignore threads about the presidency if they annoy you.

I know. I personally am largely apathetic on the issue. Just clarifying what the source of abolitionist discontentment is. Part of it is also that there's lots of fun to be had in the entire process of campaigning for abolition and then making it happen. I know for a fact that entertainment value was a big part of the reason why I supported Wylted last election. Again, that can outweigh the opportunity cost.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:10:33 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 7:08:12 PM, imabench wrote:
Name one proposal not related to moderation that a person has pushed on the site without the need for the president to approve it, campaign on it, or hold a vote for it

The mafia mod list didn't need a president to approve it. The Voters Union didn't need a president to approve it.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:11:17 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 7:00:28 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:48:49 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/31/2016 6:05:14 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/30/2016 11:34:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I am going to try to address your uncivil remarks respectfully. You may dislike the idea, but that is no reason you cannot engage in a reasonable manner with other people.

People disagreeing with you doesnt make them uncivil. Try to get that through your head.

People disagreeing with me doesn't make them uncivil, but snarky comments like that ^ are certainly uncivil. Resorting to jibes like "retarded" to demean ideas rather than to engage them on their substance are insulting. They are unbecoming of anyone wanting to earn the votes of their peers.

- Liaison to Juggle

Not only is Juggle is not interested in the site and have no discernible role in the upkeep or updating of the site

I am not sure you read the argument. I noted that it is impossible to predict when Juggle may become interested in the site.

When it comes to betting it will become interested in the site again by the end of the year, the odds drop to 90% certainty.

This is pure speculation, and a wonderful demonstration of the fallacy of induction. Just because it hasn't rain for the last 2 weeks, does not mean it could not rain tomorrow. The point being: we never know when Juggle will reengage. In that case, we should be prepared to deal with them at any time.

Having a person in the office means that we will have a point-person in place whenever they do decide to reengage.

And we can always decide to bring back the presidency if that day comes (which wont be any time soon)

And you waste time doing that, because you have to have a campaign period and elections and you have to throw it all together in a rushed manner.

Furthermore, if the Presidency has utility in that situation, why abolish it? Why not allow people to gain experience and confidence as leaders on the site through the office before they deal with Juggle?

And, if you agree that the Presidency would be useful in that situation, which it seems as if you do, since you'd bring it back in that case, then you admit that the Presidency has purpose. I don't think the Presidency does enough harm to really warrant eliminating it, and I certainly think that it does have utility, for this reason and others, whether or not, in your own eloquent words, those reasons are "bs" or not.

but Juggle goes to the mod first before anyone else when seeing an opinion on the affairs of the site....

Juggle goes to the mod to discuss moderation and bug issues, but to the President for site updates. We can look at an historical example of success in terms of the President working with Juggle, namely TUF, who was able to effect reforms to the voting system.

TUF of which was president before you, and debateability, and OreEle, and Mikal, and I believe the person before Mikal as well.....

This is non-responsive to the actual point I made above, and is just a continuation of your induction fallacy.

- Liaison/Counterbalance to Moderation

There is nothing that a president can do to definitively stop a mod from doing something, whether it comes to a new policy, banning a member, or deleting a thread.

You are conflating soft and hard power. Just because soft power is soft, does not mean it does not exist.

When its soft to the point that its non-existent, then its non-existent.

It's not nonexistent, and we will just have to agree to disagree on that issue, since I doubt we will reconcile our disagreement here.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:11:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 7:07:24 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/31/2016 7:04:39 PM, imabench wrote:
its easy to say that when you're not the one annoyed by it though. If it were me saying something like 'you can decide to ignore claims that Bsh has been bullied by you in threads if it annoys you', you would be on the opposing side of that claim.

The presidency doesn't actively bother you in any way though.

The fact that I had to declare I was going to run 3 months in advance of the election because of Bsh and Wylteds combined idiocy in making the election an issue so early is something that does actively annoy me, and im sure that many other people who come to the main forum are tired of seeing presidential stuff as well.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:13:21 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 7:11:39 PM, imabench wrote:
At 3/31/2016 7:07:24 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/31/2016 7:04:39 PM, imabench wrote:
its easy to say that when you're not the one annoyed by it though. If it were me saying something like 'you can decide to ignore claims that Bsh has been bullied by you in threads if it annoys you', you would be on the opposing side of that claim.

The presidency doesn't actively bother you in any way though.

The fact that I had to declare I was going to run 3 months in advance of the election because of Bsh and Wylteds combined idiocy in making the election an issue so early is something that does actively annoy me, and im sure that many other people who come to the main forum are tired of seeing presidential stuff as well.

Then organize a pledge among the candidates not to campaign. Easy solution. And, just because Wylted announced early did not mean you had to. Just making that observation...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/31/2016 7:13:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/31/2016 7:08:24 PM, Romaniii wrote:
Part of it is also that there's lots of fun to be had in the entire process of campaigning for abolition and then making it happen. I know for a fact that entertainment value was a big part of the reason why I supported Wylted last election.

While you are entitled to your opinion, I'd be remiss if I didn't caution you about your very dangerous ways of thinking. This is similar rationale to what you used to support the Trump presidency. While with the DDO election, it's not going to cause significant harm, I hope this is just a phase you grow out of before you enter the working world and are put in a position where your decisions could have significant effects.