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Should we abandon modding on 7pt system?

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/4/2016 1:11:04 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Everyone that cares about having votes regulated and has been on the site for at least a little while uses the "select winner" system. It's a simple change made from the drop-down menu when starting the debate. At least 90% of the arguments we see about vote moderation are that S&G, sources, and conduct are moderated differently than how the member likes.

It is unanimously accepted that the select winner system is better than the seven point system. The only reason it is not the default is because Juggle won't show up and make a simple technical change.

What if we decide to have Wild West voting on seven point debates (on everything except the arguments point)? People who don't want to be votebombed on the other voting categories will simply use the select winner system. Newbies who were votebombed will learn to use the select winner system rather than report to the mods and have them take care of it. We can essentially phase out the system and make sure no one uses it.

Why have these complicated rules on exactly what constitutes good S&G and sources?

Before the select winner system when I was an active member, I voted a lot. The majority of the time, I only voted three points and almost never awarded points for S&G and sources. Most good voters ignored those categories entirely. The reason there's so much conflict today as to what constitutes an adequate S&G or sources vote is because there is no site precedent for it. The top voters always ignored those categories and continue to do so to this day when voting on seven-point debates.

To the people actually awarding S&G and sources, why do you do so? Why can't you just award arguments and ignore the other categories? I realize that technically, the system allows you to do it, but you should realize that the system is ridiculously flawed and only exists because Juggle disappeared on us (and Airmax willing, they'll remove the system or make it not the default when they come back).

So, I ask all these people: why get into an extended argument about how many spelling errors there need to be before you can award S&G, and what extension a source needs to have for the debater to be awarded sources, why not just judge the debate on the merits of its arguments? After all, everything ties back into arguments anyways.

============================

I have a solution to address the voting problem (and we have a problem because every few days, somebody complains about voting):

Every vote on a seven point debate must award all seven points to the winner of the debate. Years ago, a tournament was run where all seven points were awarded to the winner and it worked out really well. Only arguments points need to be justified. Whether this should be mandatory is up for debate. It would essentially work the same as a select winner system.

So, what if some newbies aren't aware of it? Well, firstly, we can write it up in the newbie guides to make everyone aware of it. Secondly, the debater for whom they voted can PM them to ask them for the additional points. Thirdly, as they see that site culture is to award all seven points to the winner of the debate, more of them will start doing it. More will also start simply using the select winner system for its simplicity.

A long list of problems with modding will be solved. The number of votes removed will go down significantly. The confusion with sources, S&G, and conduct will cease. Abuse of votes by padding them with extra points will be completely non-existent. Why not use a system where all votes award all seven points to the winner of the debate even among the seven point system?
imabench
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4/4/2016 1:17:38 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 1:11:04 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Everyone that cares about having votes regulated and has been on the site for at least a little while uses the "select winner" system. It's a simple change made from the drop-down menu when starting the debate. At least 90% of the arguments we see about vote moderation are that S&G, sources, and conduct are moderated differently than how the member likes.

It is unanimously accepted that the select winner system is better than the seven point system.

I dont think its a better system, and its foolhardy to claim that its 'unanimously accepted'
that its better either

The only reason it is not the default is because Juggle won't show up and make a simple technical change.

What if we decide to have Wild West voting on seven point debates (on everything except the arguments point)? People who don't want to be votebombed on the other voting categories will simply use the select winner system. Newbies who were votebombed will learn to use the select winner system rather than report to the mods and have them take care of it. We can essentially phase out the system and make sure no one uses it.

Why have these complicated rules on exactly what constitutes good S&G and sources?

Before the select winner system when I was an active member, I voted a lot. The majority of the time, I only voted three points and almost never awarded points for S&G and sources. Most good voters ignored those categories entirely. The reason there's so much conflict today as to what constitutes an adequate S&G or sources vote is because there is no site precedent for it. The top voters always ignored those categories and continue to do so to this day when voting on seven-point debates.

To the people actually awarding S&G and sources, why do you do so? Why can't you just award arguments and ignore the other categories? I realize that technically, the system allows you to do it, but you should realize that the system is ridiculously flawed and only exists because Juggle disappeared on us (and Airmax willing, they'll remove the system or make it not the default when they come back).

So, I ask all these people: why get into an extended argument about how many spelling errors there need to be before you can award S&G, and what extension a source needs to have for the debater to be awarded sources, why not just judge the debate on the merits of its arguments? After all, everything ties back into arguments anyways.

============================

I have a solution to address the voting problem (and we have a problem because every few days, somebody complains about voting):

Every vote on a seven point debate must award all seven points to the winner of the debate. Years ago, a tournament was run where all seven points were awarded to the winner and it worked out really well. Only arguments points need to be justified. Whether this should be mandatory is up for debate. It would essentially work the same as a select winner system.

So, what if some newbies aren't aware of it? Well, firstly, we can write it up in the newbie guides to make everyone aware of it. Secondly, the debater for whom they voted can PM them to ask them for the additional points. Thirdly, as they see that site culture is to award all seven points to the winner of the debate, more of them will start doing it. More will also start simply using the select winner system for its simplicity.

A long list of problems with modding will be solved. The number of votes removed will go down significantly. The confusion with sources, S&G, and conduct will cease. Abuse of votes by padding them with extra points will be completely non-existent. Why not use a system where all votes award all seven points to the winner of the debate even among the seven point system?

Its really hard to tell if you're serious about this idea, or if you're just trolling the living hell out of someone who shares a similar opinion about this, because its quite possibly the dumbest idea ive ever heard
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

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ShabShoral
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4/4/2016 1:20:25 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 1:17:38 AM, imabench wrote:
Same reaction
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Ragnar
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4/4/2016 1:40:11 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 1:11:04 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Everyone that cares about having votes regulated and has been on the site for at least a little while uses the "select winner" system.

Not everyone. I would assume far from it.

It is unanimously accepted that the select winner system is better than the seven point system.

Given your level of activity, I suspect you know such belief is anything but unanimous. Were it otherwise, I doubt Bluesteel (former voting mod) would have had any reason to put in such effort against the 7 point system.

What if we decide to have Wild West voting on seven point debates (on everything except the arguments point)? People who don't want to be votebombed on the other voting categories will simply use the select winner system. Newbies who were votebombed will learn to use the select winner system rather than report to the mods and have them take care of it. We can essentially phase out the system and make sure no one uses it.

Your solution to what you (and probably a handful of your friends) see as a problem, is sanctioning terrorism (intimidation for political ends, not to say you'd personally take part in the intentionally bad voting you are proposing).
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/4/2016 2:20:34 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
I'm actually serious - it isn't poor voting if we as a community agree to always vote all seven points to the victor.

I had no idea people actually preferred the seven-point system.

These responses are probably the most bizarre ones that I could expect to see. I don't know if I was unclear about what exactly I'm proposing.
imabench
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4/4/2016 2:35:51 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 2:20:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'm actually serious - it isn't poor voting if we as a community agree to always vote all seven points to the victor.

Thats it. Im bringing back the Weekly Stupid.

I had no idea people actually preferred the seven-point system.

These responses are probably the most bizarre ones that I could expect to see. I don't know if I was unclear about what exactly I'm proposing.

No its very clear what youre proposing, the thing is that what youre proposing is fuckin nuts
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/4/2016 2:37:30 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 2:35:51 AM, imabench wrote:
At 4/4/2016 2:20:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'm actually serious - it isn't poor voting if we as a community agree to always vote all seven points to the victor.

Thats it. Im bringing back the Weekly Stupid.

This is a personal attack bench. Implicitly suggesting that I'm stupid isn't acceptable.

I had no idea people actually preferred the seven-point system.

These responses are probably the most bizarre ones that I could expect to see. I don't know if I was unclear about what exactly I'm proposing.

No its very clear what youre proposing, the thing is that what youre proposing is fuckin nuts

Calling it nuts is cyberbullying. If you can't be civil, we should agree to disagree.
Ragnar
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4/4/2016 2:58:54 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 2:35:51 AM, imabench wrote:
Thats it. Im bringing back the Weekly Stupid.

Yay!

If you need material for it, there's a link in my signature with a treasure trove.
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imabench
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4/4/2016 3:21:15 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 2:37:30 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/4/2016 2:35:51 AM, imabench wrote:
At 4/4/2016 2:20:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'm actually serious - it isn't poor voting if we as a community agree to always vote all seven points to the victor.

Thats it. Im bringing back the Weekly Stupid.

This is a personal attack bench. Implicitly suggesting that I'm stupid isn't acceptable.

Im not suggesting youre stupid, im suggesting that the thing that came out of your mouth is stupid.

I had no idea people actually preferred the seven-point system.

These responses are probably the most bizarre ones that I could expect to see. I don't know if I was unclear about what exactly I'm proposing.

No its very clear what youre proposing, the thing is that what youre proposing is fuckin nuts

Calling it nuts is cyberbullying. If you can't be civil, we should agree to disagree.

Okay now youre just mocking Bsh
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
TUF
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4/4/2016 11:55:28 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Rather than this I would instead suggest all active community members just refuse to vote 7 point system debates. That would encourage debaters wanting votes to instead use select winner options. But I don't like the idea of noobs being forced to get exposed to either option. Imagine you are a new member and your first debate is either not voted on or vote bombed with a bunch of conduct and s/g points. How likely are you to stay and play after that?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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4/4/2016 11:56:38 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 1:17:38 AM, imabench wrote:
At 4/4/2016 1:11:04 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Everyone that cares about having votes regulated and has been on the site for at least a little while uses the "select winner" system. It's a simple change made from the drop-down menu when starting the debate. At least 90% of the arguments we see about vote moderation are that S&G, sources, and conduct are moderated differently than how the member likes.

It is unanimously accepted that the select winner system is better than the seven point system.

I dont think its a better system, and its foolhardy to claim that its 'unanimously accepted'
that its better either

The only reason it is not the default is because Juggle won't show up and make a simple technical change.

What if we decide to have Wild West voting on seven point debates (on everything except the arguments point)? People who don't want to be votebombed on the other voting categories will simply use the select winner system. Newbies who were votebombed will learn to use the select winner system rather than report to the mods and have them take care of it. We can essentially phase out the system and make sure no one uses it.

Why have these complicated rules on exactly what constitutes good S&G and sources?

Before the select winner system when I was an active member, I voted a lot. The majority of the time, I only voted three points and almost never awarded points for S&G and sources. Most good voters ignored those categories entirely. The reason there's so much conflict today as to what constitutes an adequate S&G or sources vote is because there is no site precedent for it. The top voters always ignored those categories and continue to do so to this day when voting on seven-point debates.

To the people actually awarding S&G and sources, why do you do so? Why can't you just award arguments and ignore the other categories? I realize that technically, the system allows you to do it, but you should realize that the system is ridiculously flawed and only exists because Juggle disappeared on us (and Airmax willing, they'll remove the system or make it not the default when they come back).

So, I ask all these people: why get into an extended argument about how many spelling errors there need to be before you can award S&G, and what extension a source needs to have for the debater to be awarded sources, why not just judge the debate on the merits of its arguments? After all, everything ties back into arguments anyways.

============================

I have a solution to address the voting problem (and we have a problem because every few days, somebody complains about voting):

Every vote on a seven point debate must award all seven points to the winner of the debate. Years ago, a tournament was run where all seven points were awarded to the winner and it worked out really well. Only arguments points need to be justified. Whether this should be mandatory is up for debate. It would essentially work the same as a select winner system.

So, what if some newbies aren't aware of it? Well, firstly, we can write it up in the newbie guides to make everyone aware of it. Secondly, the debater for whom they voted can PM them to ask them for the additional points. Thirdly, as they see that site culture is to award all seven points to the winner of the debate, more of them will start doing it. More will also start simply using the select winner system for its simplicity.

A long list of problems with modding will be solved. The number of votes removed will go down significantly. The confusion with sources, S&G, and conduct will cease. Abuse of votes by padding them with extra points will be completely non-existent. Why not use a system where all votes award all seven points to the winner of the debate even among the seven point system?

Its really hard to tell if you're serious about this idea, or if you're just trolling the living hell out of someone who shares a similar opinion about this, because its quite possibly the dumbest idea ive ever heard

Bro if you ain't willing to explain why it's stupid, gtfo. With love,

-TUF
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/4/2016 4:10:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 11:55:28 AM, TUF wrote:
Rather than this I would instead suggest all active community members just refuse to vote 7 point system debates. That would encourage debaters wanting votes to instead use select winner options. But I don't like the idea of noobs being forced to get exposed to either option. Imagine you are a new member and your first debate is either not voted on or vote bombed with a bunch of conduct and s/g points. How likely are you to stay and play after that?

How is it a votebomb if everybody awards all seven points?
TUF
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4/4/2016 4:42:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 4:10:56 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/4/2016 11:55:28 AM, TUF wrote:
Rather than this I would instead suggest all active community members just refuse to vote 7 point system debates. That would encourage debaters wanting votes to instead use select winner options. But I don't like the idea of noobs being forced to get exposed to either option. Imagine you are a new member and your first debate is either not voted on or vote bombed with a bunch of conduct and s/g points. How likely are you to stay and play after that?

How is it a votebomb if everybody awards all seven points?

Is that sarcasm? If not I don't understand the question.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
imabench
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4/4/2016 5:13:08 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 11:56:38 AM, TUF wrote:
At 4/4/2016 1:17:38 AM, imabench wrote:
At 4/4/2016 1:11:04 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

============================

I have a solution to address the voting problem (and we have a problem because every few days, somebody complains about voting):

Every vote on a seven point debate must award all seven points to the winner of the debate. Years ago, a tournament was run where all seven points were awarded to the winner and it worked out really well. Only arguments points need to be justified. Whether this should be mandatory is up for debate. It would essentially work the same as a select winner system.

So, what if some newbies aren't aware of it? Well, firstly, we can write it up in the newbie guides to make everyone aware of it. Secondly, the debater for whom they voted can PM them to ask them for the additional points. Thirdly, as they see that site culture is to award all seven points to the winner of the debate, more of them will start doing it. More will also start simply using the select winner system for its simplicity.

A long list of problems with modding will be solved. The number of votes removed will go down significantly. The confusion with sources, S&G, and conduct will cease. Abuse of votes by padding them with extra points will be completely non-existent. Why not use a system where all votes award all seven points to the winner of the debate even among the seven point system?

Its really hard to tell if you're serious about this idea, or if you're just trolling the living hell out of someone who shares a similar opinion about this, because its quite possibly the dumbest idea ive ever heard

Bro if you ain't willing to explain why it's stupid, gtfo. With love,

-TUF

First off, a lot of debates I lost were because I insulted the other side for being stupid in their arguments, hence losing me conduct points which in close debates can swing the win to the other side. Other times ive won debates when arguments on both sides were dead even only because I sourced the hell out of my arguments while the other side didnt....... Getting rid of the 7 point system and ignoring conduct and sources opens up the door for people to be extremely abusive to the other side and not have to cite their arguments without risk of losing points as a result, which shouldnt be the type of standard that DDO sets for debating.

Secondly, there's no logical way to believe that eliminating the 7 point system will cut down on votebombs because the exact opposite could happen.... People call in 'favors' to friends to vote on their debates all the time, and in a winner-take all system, just two of those favors coming through could be dressed up to look like legit votes and could swing a debate from a sure victory to a controversial tie..... Its more difficult to justifiably swing a debate from a sure win to a dead-even tie with two favors, but in a winner take all system, the door opens up a lot wider for voters to give a debate to their friends simply because they asked them to.

Third, there's no way to actually convince people to abandon the 7 point system, especially among noobs. Its the default system set to debates that noobs, who make a majority of debates these days, would use for their first couple of debates, and abandoning modding on those votes would cause there to be open season on votebombs on debates for new people.... F-16 says a thread can be made to instruct noobs not to use the 7 point system, but guess what, a lot of those noobs arent even going to stick around to read the fuckin thing if they are so dissatisfied with voting on the site when their first couple of debates end in controversial losses due to bad voting.

Fourth, and heres a really radical idea, if you dont like the 7 point system, JUST DONT USE IT. There's no reason to force your (arguably stupid) preference for how debates should be judged onto the rest of the site just because you prefer one style over the other..... It already appears that a majority of people prefer the 7 point system to the winner-take-all system anyways, so you would essentially be penalizing veteran debaters who do prefer using the 7 point system just because you personally dont like it.....
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Subutai
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4/4/2016 6:12:43 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
The reason I started exclusively using the 7 point system on my debates was because of strategic voting (i.e. people giving justification for the argument points, but not for the other points they gave, usually with the intention of skewing the voting in one debater's favor). This was back when vote moderation was done by everyone through counter vote-bombing and, later on, when a vote moderation team was created but didn't do a whole lot. It was much less contentious to use the select winner system because there'd be no way strategic voting could take place.

But now the moderation has gone in the other direction, being too strong. Using the 7 point system is still a negative, but for different reasons. Even in cases were non-cognizant strategic voting took place (i.e. giving unjustified points to one side without harmful intention), the vote is deleted. Otherwise good votes are deleted because they failed to adequately justify one point. The select winner system eliminates this problem was well, because the votes are either good or bad, and not half good and half bad.

But I still like the 7 point system. When moderated effectively, it is better than the 7 point system, especially in cases where the conduct on one side was atrocious or if one side failed to adequately justify their position, because, in the 7 point system, these can be accounted for in the vote. It's all a question of whether the moderation team can back off a little bit.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
dylancatlow
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4/4/2016 6:49:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I have a strong dislike for the 7 point system, mainly because it leaves so much room for abuse. People can make their vote count for more by being nitpicky and assigning points in all categories even when it's uncalled for, leading others to follow suit since they don't want their vote to be drowned out by all the 7 votes. This puts pressure on people to come up with excuses for assigning points in all categories, and inevitably people do a shoddy job of it, creating drama, etc. People shouldn't feel pressured into doing this.

Perhaps an alternative to the current two voting formats - a blend of sorts - would be a system in which voters would have the option of awarding all 7 points to one side solely on the basis of "had more convincing arguments", but could also divide up their 7 points between the two sides if they so choose. For instance, if you think person A won the debate, but was needlessly rude throughout, you could assign them 5 points and the other person 2 points, improving A's position by 3 points instead of 7 as a way of punishing A.
Blade-of-Truth
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4/4/2016 7:10:10 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 2:20:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'm actually serious - it isn't poor voting if we as a community agree to always vote all seven points to the victor.

I had no idea people actually preferred the seven-point system.

These responses are probably the most bizarre ones that I could expect to see. I don't know if I was unclear about what exactly I'm proposing.

Are you really this disconnected from the general consensus of the site? I'm asking in all seriousness before I continue with my criticism of your proposal.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/4/2016 8:11:02 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 4:42:59 PM, TUF wrote:
At 4/4/2016 4:10:56 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/4/2016 11:55:28 AM, TUF wrote:
Rather than this I would instead suggest all active community members just refuse to vote 7 point system debates. That would encourage debaters wanting votes to instead use select winner options. But I don't like the idea of noobs being forced to get exposed to either option. Imagine you are a new member and your first debate is either not voted on or vote bombed with a bunch of conduct and s/g points. How likely are you to stay and play after that?

How is it a votebomb if everybody awards all seven points?

Is that sarcasm? If not I don't understand the question.

A votebomb is only a "votebomb" if the community defines it as such. A definition of votebomb is not "a vote that awards all seven points." If we change community norms so that we always award seven point, then it wouldn't be a votebomb at all.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/4/2016 8:14:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 7:10:10 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Are you really this disconnected from the general consensus of the site? I'm asking in all seriousness before I continue with my criticism of your proposal.

Even a month or two ago, the general consensus was that the select winner system is better. It has always been that way. Several people made threads encouraging debaters to use the select winner system. It was generally accepted that the only reason the seven point system was used was because it was the default and that Juggle won't fix it.

You are welcome to criticize it if you want. I probably won't defend it since the responses so far indicate that this is likely not the way to go.
TUF
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4/4/2016 9:23:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 8:11:02 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/4/2016 4:42:59 PM, TUF wrote:
At 4/4/2016 4:10:56 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/4/2016 11:55:28 AM, TUF wrote:
Rather than this I would instead suggest all active community members just refuse to vote 7 point system debates. That would encourage debaters wanting votes to instead use select winner options. But I don't like the idea of noobs being forced to get exposed to either option. Imagine you are a new member and your first debate is either not voted on or vote bombed with a bunch of conduct and s/g points. How likely are you to stay and play after that?

How is it a votebomb if everybody awards all seven points?

Is that sarcasm? If not I don't understand the question.

A votebomb is only a "votebomb" if the community defines it as such. A definition of votebomb is not "a vote that awards all seven points."

That's not in any way how I would define it either. Nor did I, so I am missing the point.

If we change community norms so that we always award seven point, then it wouldn't be a votebomb at all.

My definition of a vote bomb is airmax's. "A objectively bad vote".
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Blade-of-Truth
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4/4/2016 9:52:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 8:14:19 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/4/2016 7:10:10 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Are you really this disconnected from the general consensus of the site? I'm asking in all seriousness before I continue with my criticism of your proposal.

Even a month or two ago, the general consensus was that the select winner system is better. It has always been that way. Several people made threads encouraging debaters to use the select winner system. It was generally accepted that the only reason the seven point system was used was because it was the default and that Juggle won't fix it.

You are welcome to criticize it if you want. I probably won't defend it since the responses so far indicate that this is likely not the way to go.

No, you just fail to see the problem with your own solution. You're saying that we should just use the 7-point system like it was the select a winner system. However, we already have a select a winner system. It's not like people can't use it. All they have to do is select that option when creating a debate.

Your proposal just creates more unnecessary work, changing the sticky, changing policy, etc., it's all unnecessary since we already have the system in place that you are pushing for.

The harm in all this is that you are now restricting the users who prefer the 7 point system of enjoying their own preference. I personally am one of those people, because I do believe conduct, spelling and grammar, and quality of sources matter. If you don't, fine, use the select a winner system instead. It's that simple.

So, to me, this proposal just seems like a waste of time and energy since you're pushing for something that already exists, while potentially restricting the preferred option of other users at the same time.
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