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DDO Conventions - Another Walkthrough

imabench
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5/31/2016 6:19:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Okay there seems to be some uncertainty of whether or not DDO Conventions would be good for the site or not as indicated by Lannan's latest and totally awesome poll. Here are some explanations I hope clarifies things about Conventions, the link is to the original thread titled DDO Conventions - A Walkthrough

http://www.debate.org...

1) Airmax reserves the right to appoint people to help him run DDO Conventions.

In the past, Ive said that Airmax has the ability to make official DDO Convention threads and veto proposals off of the final ballot.... Those are the extent of his responsibilities in the Convention system I am proposing, but he is still welcome to appoint a representative to help him with his duties if he feels the need to appoint someone.... Airmax could even appoint people to help him keep tabs for him on DDO Convention Proposal threads, or appoint someone simply to keep tally's on votes in proposal threads.

In the past, it was the mods who had the right to make official Election threads for the presidency, but Airmax and even Innomen reserved the right to let other people make the threads and keep track of the votes. I remember Viper-King being in charge of one of the election threads if im not mistaken..... If Airmax wants to appoint someone to help him manage Convention threads or the Convention itself, he has always had the right to do so, since he has had the same power regarding making DDO Election threads..... Airmax also reserves the right to make additional threads to keep Conventions organized, such as by having one thread for voting on proposals and another thread for discussing the current ballot and vote counts, just like in the Presidential election.

Airmax reserves the right to select or appoint people to help him manage DDO Conventions. He has had that power in the past regarding Presidential elections, so it would be foolish to not grant him similar authority in managing DDO Conventions as well.

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2) Programs and Voting standards will not be altered should I be elected.

I am NOT campaigning to abolish the presidency and wipe clean everything else on DDO in the process. I am only campaigning to abolish the presidency and my system is meant to do just that..... Current programs that exist under the presidency will always be allowed to continue, the people who run such programs will be allowed to continue to run their programs if they desire to, and current voting standards will still be preserved should I be elected. I made a previous thread that outlined this called 'If you like your program, you can keep it', and the same applies to voting standards and voting moderation as well: http://www.debate.org...

Basically, Programs and voting standards will be preserved should I be elected, and proposed changes to programs and voting standards would not take place until the first convention.

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3) The first convention will not take place until 6 months after this election (should I win)

If I become president, we wont have a DDO Convention right away.... I think we could all use some time off from all this presidency bullsh*t anyways, and a convention right after an election would conflict with Hall of Fame voting, which always takes place about a week after an election ends..... Should I win, the first DDO Convention would not occur for 6 months, and it would occur right around the time a presidential election was supposed to have occurred. Until then, all programs and voting standards are to be kept at the status-quo.

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4) A person who makes a proposal has the right to redact his proposal.

Lets say Person A makes a proposal, and Person B makes a similar proposal that is much better worded or has much greater support. If Person A realizes that Person B's approach is better, Person A may redact their own proposal and not have it be put on the final ballot...... We have all probably come up with an idea that upon further consideration we had second thoughts about, so if someone has a similar experience in DDO Conventions when making a policy proposal, they are allowed to withdraw their proposal from being voted on in the official Convention thread when the time to vote on proposals comes. If Person A and B do not redact either of their proposals and both deal with the same thing, Airmax or anyone he selects to advise him can decide which proposal, if any, to put up for a vote on the final ballot.

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5) Drama

Many people have been debating on whether or not DDO Conventions would cause more or less drama than Presidential elections currently do. There is a belief among the pro-presidency camp that DDO Conventions could cause lots of drama for a variety of different reasons, which are built around speculation rather than hard evidence. There will surely be some drama, this is DDO after all where anything can be made into drama, but we can look to examples that have already taken place on DDO that shows that drama around conventions would be far more tame than some people believe they would be:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

These are the three most recent discussion threads I could find regarding changing some aspect or quality of DDO. Go through them and ask yourselves, do any of these seem to be riddled with drama and flamewars? Are any of these not very tame discussions about proposed changes to the site?

DDO Conventions will cause some drama one way or another, I am more than willing to concede that.... No system of governance would be immune to drama.... But glancing at some of the presidency threads we've had this week alone, its reasonable to believe that drama would at the very least decrease should we switch from a Presidency system to a Convention system...... Convention Proposal threads themselves also wont start popping up until a few weeks or a month before a Convention is supposed to take place, whereas Presidential threads can pop up 3 months or more before an election is even supposed to happen....... Not only will the average Convention thread have less drama than the average Presidential thread, but the very window for there to be drama in the first place would shrink considerably if we were to switch from a Presidency system to a Convention system.

Okay im about out of space now so any questions you guys have can be posted and Ill try to respond to each one individually.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
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VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
PetersSmith
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5/31/2016 6:25:11 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I still think these are too spaced out. What's to stop someone for running a proposal to make them president, especially considering a convention didn't happen before to get people to understand how it works in practice?
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
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1harderthanyouthink
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5/31/2016 6:26:54 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:25:11 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
I still think these are too spaced out. What's to stop someone for running a proposal to make them president, especially considering a convention didn't happen before to get people to understand how it works in practice?

I believe Airmax himself has said you can make a proposal to reinstate the Presidency, and then an election would follow.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
PetersSmith
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5/31/2016 6:31:32 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:26:54 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:25:11 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
I still think these are too spaced out. What's to stop someone for running a proposal to make them president, especially considering a convention didn't happen before to get people to understand how it works in practice?

I believe Airmax himself has said you can make a proposal to reinstate the Presidency, and then an election would follow.

Then it'd be counter-productive for him to hold the conventions when it's normal election time. People will run and the conventions wouldn't have been done before so people can't assess whether they work or not.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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5/31/2016 6:31:58 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:25:11 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
What's to stop someone for running a proposal to make them president,

Pretty much nothing, though you would want to make the proposal near the convention date otherwise it would be buried in other threads and soon forgotten about.

especially considering a convention didn't happen before to get people to understand how it works in practice?

I have no doubt someone in the pro-presidency crowd will be shallow or desperate enough to propose bringing back the presidency without even giving the Convention system a shot. However, they still have to wait until the Convention takes place for their proposal to be passed or not on a vote, so their attempt to disband the Convention system would ironically give them experience in showing how the Convention system would work
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
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5/31/2016 6:34:57 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:31:32 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:26:54 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:25:11 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
I still think these are too spaced out. What's to stop someone for running a proposal to make them president, especially considering a convention didn't happen before to get people to understand how it works in practice?

I believe Airmax himself has said you can make a proposal to reinstate the Presidency, and then an election would follow.

Then it'd be counter-productive for him to hold the conventions when it's normal election time.

There wouldnt be a presidential election and a convention at the same time..... Conventions would simply take place at the same 6 month intervals that presidential elections USED TO take place in.

People will run and the conventions wouldn't have been done before so people can't assess whether they work or not.

Airmax controls whether a Presidency election thread gets made or a Convention thread instead. If I win, and other people decide to run for president and try to ignore the previous result of me winning, then there wouldnt be an election thread for people to elect a president, because there will only be a convention thread instead.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,811
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5/31/2016 6:38:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:34:57 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:31:32 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:26:54 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:25:11 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
I still think these are too spaced out. What's to stop someone for running a proposal to make them president, especially considering a convention didn't happen before to get people to understand how it works in practice?

I believe Airmax himself has said you can make a proposal to reinstate the Presidency, and then an election would follow.

Then it'd be counter-productive for him to hold the conventions when it's normal election time.

There wouldnt be a presidential election and a convention at the same time..... Conventions would simply take place at the same 6 month intervals that presidential elections USED TO take place in.

People will run and the conventions wouldn't have been done before so people can't assess whether they work or not.

Airmax controls whether a Presidency election thread gets made or a Convention thread instead. If I win, and other people decide to run for president and try to ignore the previous result of me winning, then there wouldnt be an election thread for people to elect a president, because there will only be a convention thread instead.

One, wouldn't potentially popular convention proposals be buried? Two, and what's the difference between a convention proposal run for president and a normal one? It'd literally be in an "election" thread, where people would propose their campaigns before the election, and then it's voted on in that election proposal.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
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5/31/2016 6:54:06 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:38:45 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:34:57 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:31:32 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:26:54 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:25:11 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
I still think these are too spaced out. What's to stop someone for running a proposal to make them president, especially considering a convention didn't happen before to get people to understand how it works in practice?

I believe Airmax himself has said you can make a proposal to reinstate the Presidency, and then an election would follow.

Then it'd be counter-productive for him to hold the conventions when it's normal election time.

There wouldnt be a presidential election and a convention at the same time..... Conventions would simply take place at the same 6 month intervals that presidential elections USED TO take place in.

People will run and the conventions wouldn't have been done before so people can't assess whether they work or not.

Airmax controls whether a Presidency election thread gets made or a Convention thread instead. If I win, and other people decide to run for president and try to ignore the previous result of me winning, then there wouldnt be an election thread for people to elect a president, because there will only be a convention thread instead.

One, wouldn't potentially popular convention proposals be buried?

Only if they are made a large amount of time before a DDO Convention is to be held. The sweet spot I believe is a week or two beforehand, since that gives enough time to iron out details, have a discussion about the proposal, and still have it be fresh in everyone's mind when the time to vote in a Convention does come around.

Two, and what's the difference between a convention proposal run for president and a normal one?

A convention proposal run for president wouldnt be possible because you would need to bring back the presidency first...... You cant make a proposal to be the president if there is no presidency in the first place, so you would first have a vote to bring back the presidency be passed, THEN you can run for it, and we'll be back to the same system we have now.

Basically:
Proposals to bring back the presidency are allowed
Proposals to BE the president wont be allowed, due to impossibility since there isnt a presidency to run for
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,811
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5/31/2016 6:59:26 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:54:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:38:45 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:34:57 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:31:32 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:26:54 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:25:11 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
I still think these are too spaced out. What's to stop someone for running a proposal to make them president, especially considering a convention didn't happen before to get people to understand how it works in practice?

I believe Airmax himself has said you can make a proposal to reinstate the Presidency, and then an election would follow.

Then it'd be counter-productive for him to hold the conventions when it's normal election time.

There wouldnt be a presidential election and a convention at the same time..... Conventions would simply take place at the same 6 month intervals that presidential elections USED TO take place in.

People will run and the conventions wouldn't have been done before so people can't assess whether they work or not.

Airmax controls whether a Presidency election thread gets made or a Convention thread instead. If I win, and other people decide to run for president and try to ignore the previous result of me winning, then there wouldnt be an election thread for people to elect a president, because there will only be a convention thread instead.

One, wouldn't potentially popular convention proposals be buried?

Only if they are made a large amount of time before a DDO Convention is to be held. The sweet spot I believe is a week or two beforehand, since that gives enough time to iron out details, have a discussion about the proposal, and still have it be fresh in everyone's mind when the time to vote in a Convention does come around.

Two, and what's the difference between a convention proposal run for president and a normal one?

A convention proposal run for president wouldnt be possible because you would need to bring back the presidency first...... You cant make a proposal to be the president if there is no presidency in the first place, so you would first have a vote to bring back the presidency be passed, THEN you can run for it, and we'll be back to the same system we have now.

Basically:
Proposals to bring back the presidency are allowed
Proposals to BE the president wont be allowed, due to impossibility since there isnt a presidency to run for

The proposals made would be to bring the presidency back via the person lobbying to make themselves president. So you are going to have the issue, with this system, where people would be running for elections, with the drama associated with them, as well as people trying to make convention proposals. There wouldn't be one proposal to bring the presidency back, there would be multiple proposals based on each campaign (which would gain popularity before the conventions themselves so people would know who to vote for, or if they still want to keep your system, which they have no prior evidence whether it would work or not). Thus, my suggestion is to have a convention before normal election time.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
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5/31/2016 7:08:36 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 6:59:26 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

The proposals made would be to bring the presidency back via the person lobbying to make themselves president.

Individual proposals can only be dedicated to individual issues, meaning you can propose to bring the presidency back, but not propose to bring it back AND be named the president should it be brought back.

There wouldn't be one proposal to bring the presidency back, there would be multiple proposals based on each campaign

None of which would be included in the final Convention thread to be voted on due to impossibility. It doesnt matter if 4 or 5 people make convention proposals to be named the next president, if the presidency doesnt exist to begin with, then they cannot be named president, and thus the proposals would not be included on the ballot.

If your still not satisfied with my answer, I could also just hammer out an agreement with Airmax to amend the main tentpoles of DDO Conventions (shown here http://www.debate.org... ) so that proposals to bring back the presidency are allowed, but proposals to name someone president or ruler are explicitly banned and not allowed.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
PetersSmith
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5/31/2016 7:11:08 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 7:08:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:59:26 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

The proposals made would be to bring the presidency back via the person lobbying to make themselves president.

Individual proposals can only be dedicated to individual issues, meaning you can propose to bring the presidency back, but not propose to bring it back AND be named the president should it be brought back.

There wouldn't be one proposal to bring the presidency back, there would be multiple proposals based on each campaign

None of which would be included in the final Convention thread to be voted on due to impossibility. It doesnt matter if 4 or 5 people make convention proposals to be named the next president, if the presidency doesnt exist to begin with, then they cannot be named president, and thus the proposals would not be included on the ballot.

If your still not satisfied with my answer, I could also just hammer out an agreement with Airmax to amend the main tentpoles of DDO Conventions (shown here http://www.debate.org... ) so that proposals to bring back the presidency are allowed, but proposals to name someone president or ruler are explicitly banned and not allowed.

If you say so.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Beauty_Of_Insanity
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5/31/2016 7:15:03 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Another walkthrough.

XD
Best Commentary/Replies:

"You forget: Im a twisted bastard."
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"Young people in their teens and twenties think that life sucks. Life hasn't even begun to -censored- you yet, suck it up bitches."
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MLG Level: Dis game iz 2 eazy...
imabench
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5/31/2016 7:24:41 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 7:11:08 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:08:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:59:26 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

The proposals made would be to bring the presidency back via the person lobbying to make themselves president.

Individual proposals can only be dedicated to individual issues, meaning you can propose to bring the presidency back, but not propose to bring it back AND be named the president should it be brought back.

There wouldn't be one proposal to bring the presidency back, there would be multiple proposals based on each campaign

None of which would be included in the final Convention thread to be voted on due to impossibility. It doesnt matter if 4 or 5 people make convention proposals to be named the next president, if the presidency doesnt exist to begin with, then they cannot be named president, and thus the proposals would not be included on the ballot.

If your still not satisfied with my answer, I could also just hammer out an agreement with Airmax to amend the main tentpoles of DDO Conventions (shown here http://www.debate.org... ) so that proposals to bring back the presidency are allowed, but proposals to name someone president or ruler are explicitly banned and not allowed.

If you say so.

Would you prefer that there be a clear rule to DDO Conventions that explicitly ban proposals to name someone as president or ruler of the site?
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
PetersSmith
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5/31/2016 7:27:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 7:24:41 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:11:08 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:08:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:59:26 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

The proposals made would be to bring the presidency back via the person lobbying to make themselves president.

Individual proposals can only be dedicated to individual issues, meaning you can propose to bring the presidency back, but not propose to bring it back AND be named the president should it be brought back.

There wouldn't be one proposal to bring the presidency back, there would be multiple proposals based on each campaign

None of which would be included in the final Convention thread to be voted on due to impossibility. It doesnt matter if 4 or 5 people make convention proposals to be named the next president, if the presidency doesnt exist to begin with, then they cannot be named president, and thus the proposals would not be included on the ballot.

If your still not satisfied with my answer, I could also just hammer out an agreement with Airmax to amend the main tentpoles of DDO Conventions (shown here http://www.debate.org... ) so that proposals to bring back the presidency are allowed, but proposals to name someone president or ruler are explicitly banned and not allowed.

If you say so.

Would you prefer that there be a clear rule to DDO Conventions that explicitly ban proposals to name someone as president or ruler of the site?

Umm, no. But making too many rules would contradict what you're trying to go for with a direct democracy.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
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5/31/2016 7:38:39 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/31/2016 7:27:09 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:24:41 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:11:08 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:08:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:59:26 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

The proposals made would be to bring the presidency back via the person lobbying to make themselves president.

Individual proposals can only be dedicated to individual issues, meaning you can propose to bring the presidency back, but not propose to bring it back AND be named the president should it be brought back.

There wouldn't be one proposal to bring the presidency back, there would be multiple proposals based on each campaign

None of which would be included in the final Convention thread to be voted on due to impossibility. It doesnt matter if 4 or 5 people make convention proposals to be named the next president, if the presidency doesnt exist to begin with, then they cannot be named president, and thus the proposals would not be included on the ballot.

If your still not satisfied with my answer, I could also just hammer out an agreement with Airmax to amend the main tentpoles of DDO Conventions (shown here http://www.debate.org... ) so that proposals to bring back the presidency are allowed, but proposals to name someone president or ruler are explicitly banned and not allowed.

If you say so.

Would you prefer that there be a clear rule to DDO Conventions that explicitly ban proposals to name someone as president or ruler of the site?

Umm, no. But making too many rules would contradict what you're trying to go for with a direct democracy.

There arent that many rules to begin with though..... The only rules there are regarding what members cant do in Conventions are

1 - Members are limited to 2 proposals for a Convention,
2 - 60% of approval is needed for a proposal to pass,

Adding a 3rd rule that bans proposals to name someone president or ruler of the site wouldnt be that big of a stretch to make..... Everything else in this thread and the previous thread are just meant to outline how the system would be set up and who would run it
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015