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Voting Moderation Improvement

TUF
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6/8/2016 4:55:18 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

My understanding of the vote moderation system is that it already works like that.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 5:51:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 4:55:18 PM, TUF wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

My understanding of the vote moderation system is that it already works like that.

I'd suggest your understanding is incorrect.
PetersSmith
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6/8/2016 5:56:06 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

"Any" explanation is just stupid as people could give BS or one word explanations.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

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TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 6:00:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 5:56:06 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

"Any" explanation is just stupid as people could give BS or one word explanations.

BS explanations could be of any length, so having stringent requirements in that department doesn't save you anything. Law of parsimony. No sense in having a requirement that doesn't do anything.

And I disagree that an explanation can be one word. I see nothing wrong with brief, terse, or brief explanations.
PetersSmith
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6/8/2016 6:09:17 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:00:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 5:56:06 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

"Any" explanation is just stupid as people could give BS or one word explanations.

BS explanations could be of any length, so having stringent requirements in that department doesn't save you anything. Law of parsimony. No sense in having a requirement that doesn't do anything.

And I disagree that an explanation can be one word. I see nothing wrong with brief, terse, or brief explanations.

Let's provide an example of "any explanation", shall we? Let's use the example of a standard god exists (pro) debate. I vote all the points for con. Here's my explanations:

Agreed with before the debate: Con
Agreed with after the debate: Con
Who had better conduct: Con had much better conduct than pro (let me also say that con objectively had worse conduct).
Had better spelling and grammar: Con. Pro's arguments were riddled with spelling and grammar errors (even though let's say Con's grammar was actually worse).
Made more convincing arguments: Con because god doesn't exist.
Used the most reliable sources: Con because Hitchens is awesome.

These are "any" explanations and they don't violate the TOS. They don't even have to be "true" so long as they're an explanation. So what's the difference between this and votebombing? There's a reason this system is in place because we want debaters to improve based on "good" criticism.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
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TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 6:21:12 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:09:17 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:00:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 5:56:06 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

"Any" explanation is just stupid as people could give BS or one word explanations.

BS explanations could be of any length, so having stringent requirements in that department doesn't save you anything. Law of parsimony. No sense in having a requirement that doesn't do anything.

And I disagree that an explanation can be one word. I see nothing wrong with brief, terse, or brief explanations.

Let's provide an example of "any explanation", shall we? Let's use the example of a standard god exists (pro) debate. I vote all the points for con. Here's my explanations:

Who had better conduct: Con had much better conduct than pro (let me also say that con objectively had worse conduct).

This isn't an explanation.

Had better spelling and grammar: Con. Pro's arguments were riddled with spelling and grammar errors (even though let's say Con's grammar was actually worse).

A lie is not an explanation.

Made more convincing arguments: Con because god doesn't exist.

Again, this doesn't explain anything.

Used the most reliable sources: Con because Hitchens is awesome.

While this is potentially an explanation, it doesn't explain why the sources were more reliable.

These are "any" explanations and they don't violate the TOS. They don't even have to be "true" so long as they're an explanation. So what's the difference between this and votebombing? There's a reason this system is in place because we want debaters to improve based on "good" criticism.

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.
lannan13
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6/8/2016 6:22:01 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
"Any" is quite a very broad and vague portion for the RFD. I could just say Con's wins arguments, since the sky is blue. That would be justified under your model.
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donald.keller
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6/8/2016 6:22:41 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
It's so easy to want such an undeveloped moderation standard untill you have one... and then the bad votes arrive on your debate, and Whiteflame just says "nothing i can do, sorry"... why do you think it got the way it is now? The lawls? It happened because people kept getting bad votes, and vote moderation couldn't stop it.
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PetersSmith
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6/8/2016 6:24:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:21:12 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:09:17 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:00:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 5:56:06 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

"Any" explanation is just stupid as people could give BS or one word explanations.

BS explanations could be of any length, so having stringent requirements in that department doesn't save you anything. Law of parsimony. No sense in having a requirement that doesn't do anything.

And I disagree that an explanation can be one word. I see nothing wrong with brief, terse, or brief explanations.

Let's provide an example of "any explanation", shall we? Let's use the example of a standard god exists (pro) debate. I vote all the points for con. Here's my explanations:

Who had better conduct: Con had much better conduct than pro (let me also say that con objectively had worse conduct).

This isn't an explanation.

Had better spelling and grammar: Con. Pro's arguments were riddled with spelling and grammar errors (even though let's say Con's grammar was actually worse).

A lie is not an explanation.

Made more convincing arguments: Con because god doesn't exist.

Again, this doesn't explain anything.

Used the most reliable sources: Con because Hitchens is awesome.

While this is potentially an explanation, it doesn't explain why the sources were more reliable.

These are "any" explanations and they don't violate the TOS. They don't even have to be "true" so long as they're an explanation. So what's the difference between this and votebombing? There's a reason this system is in place because we want debaters to improve based on "good" criticism.

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.

Well now you need to define what that is in your suggestion for "voting moderation improvement". Not just say "any explanation" because that is foolishly broad. Explanation: a reason or justification given for an action or belief. Combined with any that would be "any sort of justification for ones vote, regardless of whether it's reality or the person's belief".
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
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Blade-of-Truth
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6/8/2016 6:24:24 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

Lol, I like the visual element but I do see one slight issue with this.

The second step says, "Does the vote provide any explanation for each point awarded."

The issue I see with this is with the key terms "any explanation". The problem is that if someone says they awarded arguments because, "they like Con's personality more" it'd be permissible under your proposed standards since it's still an explanation. We can't allow such votes though as they aren't votes based on the substance of the arguments but rather on the personal opinion of the voter.

The only difference between your image and the actual standards is that we'd ask that the vote provide *sufficient* explanations for each point awarded. We can't just accept *any* explanation though as sometimes those explanations would potentially be pure bias or unfounded opinion.
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famousdebater
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6/8/2016 6:25:26 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:22:41 PM, donald.keller wrote:
It happened because people kept getting bad votes, and vote moderation couldn't stop it.

This is the exact point I've been making in the other thread.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
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TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 6:29:07 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:24:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.

Well now you need to define what that is in your suggestion for "voting moderation improvement". Not just say "any explanation" because that is foolishly broad. Explanation: a reason or justification given for an action or belief. Combined with any that would be "any sort of justification for ones vote, regardless of whether it's reality or the person's belief".

I'd rather be foolishly broad than fascistly narrow.
PetersSmith
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6/8/2016 6:30:25 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:29:07 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:24:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.

Well now you need to define what that is in your suggestion for "voting moderation improvement". Not just say "any explanation" because that is foolishly broad. Explanation: a reason or justification given for an action or belief. Combined with any that would be "any sort of justification for ones vote, regardless of whether it's reality or the person's belief".

I'd rather be foolishly broad than fascistly narrow.

Then don't say my explanations were "wrong" or that they "weren't explanations". Those were perfectly fine explanations in accordance with your suggested improvements.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 6:31:11 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:30:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:29:07 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:24:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.

Well now you need to define what that is in your suggestion for "voting moderation improvement". Not just say "any explanation" because that is foolishly broad. Explanation: a reason or justification given for an action or belief. Combined with any that would be "any sort of justification for ones vote, regardless of whether it's reality or the person's belief".

I'd rather be foolishly broad than fascistly narrow.

Then don't say my explanations were "wrong" or that they "weren't explanations". Those were perfectly fine explanations in accordance with your suggested improvements.

No they weren't.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 6:32:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:22:41 PM, donald.keller wrote:
It's so easy to want such an undeveloped moderation standard untill you have one... and then the bad votes arrive on your debate, and Whiteflame just says "nothing i can do, sorry"... why do you think it got the way it is now? The lawls? It happened because people kept getting bad votes, and vote moderation couldn't stop it.

Let's be real. Most people think that any vote not in their favor is a "bad" vote.
PetersSmith
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6/8/2016 6:33:46 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:31:11 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:30:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:29:07 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:24:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.

Well now you need to define what that is in your suggestion for "voting moderation improvement". Not just say "any explanation" because that is foolishly broad. Explanation: a reason or justification given for an action or belief. Combined with any that would be "any sort of justification for ones vote, regardless of whether it's reality or the person's belief".

I'd rather be foolishly broad than fascistly narrow.

Then don't say my explanations were "wrong" or that they "weren't explanations". Those were perfectly fine explanations in accordance with your suggested improvements.

No they weren't.

We've just been over this. Your definition is so foolishly broad that they would be. And if your "improvement" was actually implemented, as soon as a mod removes a vote saying "these explanations weren't explanations" then your entire very fragile system is going down because of a very poor choice of words.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 6:33:49 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:24:24 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

Lol, I like the visual element but I do see one slight issue with this.

The second step says, "Does the vote provide any explanation for each point awarded."

The issue I see with this is with the key terms "any explanation". The problem is that if someone says they awarded arguments because, "they like Con's personality more" it'd be permissible under your proposed standards since it's still an explanation. We can't allow such votes though as they aren't votes based on the substance of the arguments but rather on the personal opinion of the voter.

The only difference between your image and the actual standards is that we'd ask that the vote provide *sufficient* explanations for each point awarded. We can't just accept *any* explanation though as sometimes those explanations would potentially be pure bias or unfounded opinion.

The actual standards require that a person address every single point raised in the debate. That's stupid. Really, it's stupid.

The standard completely and explicitly forbids making general overall assessment of debates. An RFD *has* to be rooted in the individual arguments. You can't look at the overall argument and make a judgement on that.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 6:36:02 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:33:46 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:31:11 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:30:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:29:07 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:24:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.

Well now you need to define what that is in your suggestion for "voting moderation improvement". Not just say "any explanation" because that is foolishly broad. Explanation: a reason or justification given for an action or belief. Combined with any that would be "any sort of justification for ones vote, regardless of whether it's reality or the person's belief".

I'd rather be foolishly broad than fascistly narrow.

Then don't say my explanations were "wrong" or that they "weren't explanations". Those were perfectly fine explanations in accordance with your suggested improvements.

No they weren't.

We've just been over this. Your definition is so foolishly broad that they would be.

And your test vote violated even that standard. Listen, I get it. You want to construct an RFD that we all agree one as bad, but would still be allowed by the posited standard. I understand the tactic. It's a fine tactic. But the vote you constructed didn't pass muster. I agree that it was bad, in fact, it was so bad it still wouldn't even be allowed under a "foolishly broad" standard.

Try again, but be a little less heavy handed and obvious.

And if your "improvement" was actually implemented, as soon as a mod removes a vote saying "these explanations weren't explanations" then your entire very fragile system is going down because of a very poor choice of words.

Why?
PetersSmith
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6/8/2016 6:41:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:36:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:33:46 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:31:11 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:30:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:29:07 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:24:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.

Well now you need to define what that is in your suggestion for "voting moderation improvement". Not just say "any explanation" because that is foolishly broad. Explanation: a reason or justification given for an action or belief. Combined with any that would be "any sort of justification for ones vote, regardless of whether it's reality or the person's belief".

I'd rather be foolishly broad than fascistly narrow.

Then don't say my explanations were "wrong" or that they "weren't explanations". Those were perfectly fine explanations in accordance with your suggested improvements.

No they weren't.

We've just been over this. Your definition is so foolishly broad that they would be.

And your test vote violated even that standard. Listen, I get it. You want to construct an RFD that we all agree one as bad, but would still be allowed by the posited standard. I understand the tactic. It's a fine tactic. But the vote you constructed didn't pass muster. I agree that it was bad, in fact, it was so bad it still wouldn't even be allowed under a "foolishly broad" standard.

Try again, but be a little less heavy handed and obvious.

And if your "improvement" was actually implemented, as soon as a mod removes a vote saying "these explanations weren't explanations" then your entire very fragile system is going down because of a very poor choice of words.

Why?

I don't have to, that's the thing. You're trying to narrow what "any" is. Do it then. Don't try to continue to justify the use of that wording. A removal of a vote that has an explanation, regardless of what its content is (hence "any") would subject your "improvement" to scrutiny because then you'd have to make clearer definitions, and with those clearer definitions more votes would be removed, and then eventually you'll end up to "sufficient explanation" which would be exactly what you didn't want.
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"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 6:47:54 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:41:50 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:36:02 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:33:46 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:31:11 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:30:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:29:07 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:24:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:

I agree that there is no difference between what you wrote and vote bombing without an RFD. You seem to be operating under the notion that any gibberish you type on the keyboard counts as an explanation. I disagree with that notion. Lies cannot be explanations. Things which do not address what is being asked cannot be explanations.

Well now you need to define what that is in your suggestion for "voting moderation improvement". Not just say "any explanation" because that is foolishly broad. Explanation: a reason or justification given for an action or belief. Combined with any that would be "any sort of justification for ones vote, regardless of whether it's reality or the person's belief".

I'd rather be foolishly broad than fascistly narrow.

Then don't say my explanations were "wrong" or that they "weren't explanations". Those were perfectly fine explanations in accordance with your suggested improvements.

No they weren't.

We've just been over this. Your definition is so foolishly broad that they would be.

And your test vote violated even that standard. Listen, I get it. You want to construct an RFD that we all agree one as bad, but would still be allowed by the posited standard. I understand the tactic. It's a fine tactic. But the vote you constructed didn't pass muster. I agree that it was bad, in fact, it was so bad it still wouldn't even be allowed under a "foolishly broad" standard.

Try again, but be a little less heavy handed and obvious.

And if your "improvement" was actually implemented, as soon as a mod removes a vote saying "these explanations weren't explanations" then your entire very fragile system is going down because of a very poor choice of words.

Why?

I don't have to, that's the thing. You're trying to narrow what "any" is. Do it then. Don't try to continue to justify the use of that wording. A removal of a vote that has an explanation, regardless of what its content is (hence "any") would subject your "improvement" to scrutiny because then you'd have to make clearer definitions, and with those clearer definitions more votes would be removed, and then eventually you'll end up to "sufficient explanation" which would be exactly what you didn't want.

I'm not narrowing what "any" is. It's already narrowed by the word "explanation." If I tell you to bring me any cat and you bring me a dog that's not going to fly.

I agree that any explanation regardless of content would be allowed. I disagree that any content constitutes and explanation.
Blade-of-Truth
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6/8/2016 6:49:15 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:33:49 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:24:24 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

Lol, I like the visual element but I do see one slight issue with this.

The second step says, "Does the vote provide any explanation for each point awarded."

The issue I see with this is with the key terms "any explanation". The problem is that if someone says they awarded arguments because, "they like Con's personality more" it'd be permissible under your proposed standards since it's still an explanation. We can't allow such votes though as they aren't votes based on the substance of the arguments but rather on the personal opinion of the voter.

The only difference between your image and the actual standards is that we'd ask that the vote provide *sufficient* explanations for each point awarded. We can't just accept *any* explanation though as sometimes those explanations would potentially be pure bias or unfounded opinion.

The actual standards require that a person address every single point raised in the debate. That's stupid. Really, it's stupid.

No, that's only the standard for the opt-in voting system. We also allow the regular voting standards where voters need to only address the key arguments that impacted their reasoning. Of course, we also offer the option for no vote moderation at all, which can be achieved if both debaters state and agree to that in the beginning of the debate.

The standard completely and explicitly forbids making general overall assessment of debates. An RFD *has* to be rooted in the individual arguments. You can't look at the overall argument and make a judgement on that.

Of course an RFD has to be rooted in the individual arguments, but not *all* individual arguments.

I think the main misunderstanding here is that you are confusing the opt-in standards with the regular standards.
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TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/8/2016 8:42:20 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:49:15 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:33:49 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:24:24 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

Lol, I like the visual element but I do see one slight issue with this.

The second step says, "Does the vote provide any explanation for each point awarded."

The issue I see with this is with the key terms "any explanation". The problem is that if someone says they awarded arguments because, "they like Con's personality more" it'd be permissible under your proposed standards since it's still an explanation. We can't allow such votes though as they aren't votes based on the substance of the arguments but rather on the personal opinion of the voter.

The only difference between your image and the actual standards is that we'd ask that the vote provide *sufficient* explanations for each point awarded. We can't just accept *any* explanation though as sometimes those explanations would potentially be pure bias or unfounded opinion.

The actual standards require that a person address every single point raised in the debate. That's stupid. Really, it's stupid.

No, that's only the standard for the opt-in voting system. We also allow the regular voting standards where voters need to only address the key arguments that impacted their reasoning. Of course, we also offer the option for no vote moderation at all, which can be achieved if both debaters state and agree to that in the beginning of the debate.

The standard completely and explicitly forbids making general overall assessment of debates. An RFD *has* to be rooted in the individual arguments. You can't look at the overall argument and make a judgement on that.

Of course an RFD has to be rooted in the individual arguments, but not *all* individual arguments.

I think the main misunderstanding here is that you are confusing the opt-in standards with the regular standards.

That's not true.

For the recent "Voting Bans" thread, the user was voting on this debate:

http://www.debate.org...

Which is "Open"

In response he was given this document as a voting guide:

https://docs.google.com...

Which tells people that they have to comment on every aspect of the debate and makes no reference to any "opt in" exclusion.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/9/2016 2:40:15 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

The choice of how strictly votes on a debate should be moderated is a made by the debaters. The instigator chooses the setting and the contender has the chance to look at it before accepting.

The choices as I understand them are:

1. No moderation (by selecting the "no RFD required" option)
2. Standard moderation (by choosing the "RFD required" option")
3. Opt-in moderation (by mentioning it in Round one)
4. Judge Voting only (by picking judges)

Most debaters choose #2. If you are looking at it from the perspective of the debater, it seems they simply want votes to be at a certain standard. For instance, I want votes on my debates to meet a fairly high standard and if the voters can't meet that, I don't want them voting on my debates at all. Why even bother voting on debates where debaters expect a higher standard than what you are willing to provide time and effort-wise as opposed to sticking to category #1?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/9/2016 2:44:16 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
If your disagreement is in about how strict category #2 should actually be, how helpful would it be to add another category (#1.5 for the sake of discussion) between #1 and #2 where votes only have to provide some explanation of their RFD which may or may not be sufficient according to the standards of #2 which only removes the most obvious votebombs? Debaters can choose how strictly they want their debates moderated and if that's what they want, that's what they will choose. I suggested this idea a few months ago and it was universally panned.
tejretics
Posts: 6,093
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6/9/2016 11:01:07 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:24:24 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

Lol, I like the visual element but I do see one slight issue with this.

The second step says, "Does the vote provide any explanation for each point awarded."

The issue I see with this is with the key terms "any explanation". The problem is that if someone says they awarded arguments because, "they like Con's personality more" it'd be permissible under your proposed standards since it's still an explanation. We can't allow such votes though as they aren't votes based on the substance of the arguments but rather on the personal opinion of the voter.

The only difference between your image and the actual standards is that we'd ask that the vote provide *sufficient* explanations for each point awarded. We can't just accept *any* explanation though as sometimes those explanations would potentially be pure bias or unfounded opinion.

^This
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
TheGreatAndPowerful
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6/9/2016 11:09:18 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 2:40:15 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:09:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
http://imgur.com...

The choice of how strictly votes on a debate should be moderated is a made by the debaters. The instigator chooses the setting and the contender has the chance to look at it before accepting.

The choices as I understand them are:

1. No moderation (by selecting the "no RFD required" option)
2. Standard moderation (by choosing the "RFD required" option")
3. Opt-in moderation (by mentioning it in Round one)
4. Judge Voting only (by picking judges)

Most debaters choose #2. If you are looking at it from the perspective of the debater, it seems they simply want votes to be at a certain standard. For instance, I want votes on my debates to meet a fairly high standard and if the voters can't meet that, I don't want them voting on my debates at all. Why even bother voting on debates where debaters expect a higher standard than what you are willing to provide time and effort-wise as opposed to sticking to category #1?

If you want a specifically high standard, you should be choosing option #4.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/9/2016 5:29:11 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 11:09:18 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
If you want a specifically high standard, you should be choosing option #4.

That works and probably what I would do. But I'd also want the option of allowing anyone willing to give a good RFD to vote on my debate without restricting myself to just a few judges. The current voting rules give me that option.