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\\=== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ===//

donald.keller
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6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved. So the idea that getting them to come here, but having no way of encouraging them to stay, would produce overall less members than the other way around, is built on the false narrative that Government programs are needed for them to want to stay in the first place.

Secondly, we do intend to offer ways to mentor and help new members, because new members do enjoy the option, even if they don't always need it.

Harder and Hayd have both stated that our method for outreach (bringing in new members, without encouraging them to stay, a narrative already shown to be false) would produce less members. Ignoring that we do hope to offer new member aid, let's look at the following. If 5 members join on their own over a month, with New Member programs producing a 60% rate of staying, We will have 3 new members. If 10 members join a month because of outreach programs, but a lack of new member programs leaves only a 40% chance of staying, you would still have more members staying. Of course, we aim for that 60% goal as well...

\\===***== Our Goals ==***===//

The only reform I hope for (and I say hope, because I have no intentions of taking over the program from Hayd) would be to have more collaboration among the trainers. When trainers are given a new member to teach, they have complete autonomy and privacy, and this leads to a lack of investment from the trainers, and no responsibility to do a good job. More collaboration with each other would address this.

We would also aim to implement a search and help project. Either me, or a member of the Administration (one of the three pre-planned members, we aren't adding members to the Administration), would find new members and PM them a message informing them of the NEW MEMBERS thread, programs (both public and private) that can help them, current Open Debates, games, and threads they might like, and reminding them to visit the FB page. Most of the time, it's not them being trained and "mentored" that keeps new members around, it's having people welcoming them in and getting them involved. The method of finding new members were be using the Advanced Search to find members who were added within 74 hours, and have at least 1-5 debates.

We would also offer a weekly PM informing them of some Threads, open Debates, and events like competitions and games. Keeping new members informed and engaged does more to keep them around them than anything else. This is why using the FB page to advertise threads and activities would ensure many of the members who visit DDO from the FB page are informed/engaged enough to stay.

\\===***== Final Statements ==***===//

To be frank... The Presidency doesn't keep new members around. The Community does. Our goals aren't to use the presidency to host programs that rarely work. We would instead aim to get new members engaged in the community, and aid the community at doing what it does best.

We would sponsor and aid private community programs and events that target new members, because getting the community engaged with new members and getting new members engaged in the community will do more than all the mentorship programs the Presidency could ever run.

#DK/TUF2016
#SaveThePresidency
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

OFFICIAL DK/TUF 2016 Platform: http://www.debate.org...

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lannan13
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6/9/2016 12:12:46 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
What makes you sure this would work better than the status quo?
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donald.keller
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6/9/2016 12:23:44 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 12:12:46 AM, lannan13 wrote:
What makes you sure this would work better than the status quo?

Well to start... The status quo is ran by administrators who volunteer because they are asked to, and not because they want to... Take me. I was given the job of Administrator of Tournaments... I mentioned being interested in several other roles, but got that one. This kind of thing means people are running programs because they were asked to, and not because they wanted to. Private programs avert this.

So instead of advertising Publicly ran programs, or asking new members to join them, we'd promote and send them towards activities ran by members who are fully involved and enthusiastic about what they are doing.

Status quo is wrong in that it presumes "training" members is what makes them stay. Getting members involved in games, events, discussions, and privately ran community programs, is the only way to increase their odds of staying. And that's the point of the Search and Help program (that's not it's name)... Promoting community events, not presidential events. Name 5 members you know who stayed on the site because of a Presidential Program 'mentoring' them, as opposed to staying because because they got involved in the community? This is also why more collaboration among trainers would help. Instead of being stuct with one person, you're working with others, and with other new members. More engagement.

Mentorship programs help new members... But they aren't why members chose to stay.
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

OFFICIAL DK/TUF 2016 Platform: http://www.debate.org...

My Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com...
#SaveThePresidency
#SaveTheSite

-- DK/TUF 2016 --
donald.keller
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6/9/2016 12:28:43 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Also, DK/TUF AMA: http://www.debate.org...
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

OFFICIAL DK/TUF 2016 Platform: http://www.debate.org...

My Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com...
#SaveThePresidency
#SaveTheSite

-- DK/TUF 2016 --
kasmic
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6/9/2016 12:33:20 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved. So the idea that getting them to come here, but having no way of encouraging them to stay, would produce overall less members than the other way around, is built on the false narrative that Government programs are needed for them to want to stay in the first place.

Not gonna lie, being grouped with those members feels pretty good despite the context.

Secondly, we do intend to offer ways to mentor and help new members, because new members do enjoy the option, even if they don't always need it.

Harder and Hayd have both stated that our method for outreach (bringing in new members, without encouraging them to stay, a narrative already shown to be false) would produce less members. Ignoring that we do hope to offer new member aid, let's look at the following. If 5 members join on their own over a month, with New Member programs producing a 60% rate of staying, We will have 3 new members. If 10 members join a month because of outreach programs, but a lack of new member programs leaves only a 40% chance of staying, you would still have more members staying. Of course, we aim for that 60% goal as well...

\\===***== Our Goals ==***===//

The only reform I hope for (and I say hope, because I have no intentions of taking over the program from Hayd) would be to have more collaboration among the trainers. When trainers are given a new member to teach, they have complete autonomy and privacy, and this leads to a lack of investment from the trainers, and no responsibility to do a good job. More collaboration with each other would address this.

We would also aim to implement a search and help project. Either me, or a member of the Administration (one of the three pre-planned members, we aren't adding members to the Administration), would find new members and PM them a message informing them of the NEW MEMBERS thread, programs (both public and private) that can help them, current Open Debates, games, and threads they might like, and reminding them to visit the FB page. Most of the time, it's not them being trained and "mentored" that keeps new members around, it's having people welcoming them in and getting them involved. The method of finding new members were be using the Advanced Search to find members who were added within 74 hours, and have at least 1-5 debates.

We would also offer a weekly PM informing them of some Threads, open Debates, and events like competitions and games. Keeping new members informed and engaged does more to keep them around them than anything else. This is why using the FB page to advertise threads and activities would ensure many of the members who visit DDO from the FB page are informed/engaged enough to stay.

\\===***== Final Statements ==***===//

To be frank... The Presidency doesn't keep new members around. The Community does. Our goals aren't to use the presidency to host programs that rarely work. We would instead aim to get new members engaged in the community, and aid the community at doing what it does best.

We would sponsor and aid private community programs and events that target new members, because getting the community engaged with new members and getting new members engaged in the community will do more than all the mentorship programs the Presidency could ever run.

#DK/TUF2016
#SaveThePresidency
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
donald.keller
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6/9/2016 12:35:54 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 12:33:20 AM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved. So the idea that getting them to come here, but having no way of encouraging them to stay, would produce overall less members than the other way around, is built on the false narrative that Government programs are needed for them to want to stay in the first place.

Not gonna lie, being grouped with those members feels pretty good despite the context.

I don't know... The context should make it better. lol
I notice you have a website... Hmmm... Giving me an idea. I'll get back to you on that.

Secondly, we do intend to offer ways to mentor and help new members, because new members do enjoy the option, even if they don't always need it.

Harder and Hayd have both stated that our method for outreach (bringing in new members, without encouraging them to stay, a narrative already shown to be false) would produce less members. Ignoring that we do hope to offer new member aid, let's look at the following. If 5 members join on their own over a month, with New Member programs producing a 60% rate of staying, We will have 3 new members. If 10 members join a month because of outreach programs, but a lack of new member programs leaves only a 40% chance of staying, you would still have more members staying. Of course, we aim for that 60% goal as well...

\\===***== Our Goals ==***===//

The only reform I hope for (and I say hope, because I have no intentions of taking over the program from Hayd) would be to have more collaboration among the trainers. When trainers are given a new member to teach, they have complete autonomy and privacy, and this leads to a lack of investment from the trainers, and no responsibility to do a good job. More collaboration with each other would address this.

We would also aim to implement a search and help project. Either me, or a member of the Administration (one of the three pre-planned members, we aren't adding members to the Administration), would find new members and PM them a message informing them of the NEW MEMBERS thread, programs (both public and private) that can help them, current Open Debates, games, and threads they might like, and reminding them to visit the FB page. Most of the time, it's not them being trained and "mentored" that keeps new members around, it's having people welcoming them in and getting them involved. The method of finding new members were be using the Advanced Search to find members who were added within 74 hours, and have at least 1-5 debates.

We would also offer a weekly PM informing them of some Threads, open Debates, and events like competitions and games. Keeping new members informed and engaged does more to keep them around them than anything else. This is why using the FB page to advertise threads and activities would ensure many of the members who visit DDO from the FB page are informed/engaged enough to stay.

\\===***== Final Statements ==***===//

To be frank... The Presidency doesn't keep new members around. The Community does. Our goals aren't to use the presidency to host programs that rarely work. We would instead aim to get new members engaged in the community, and aid the community at doing what it does best.

We would sponsor and aid private community programs and events that target new members, because getting the community engaged with new members and getting new members engaged in the community will do more than all the mentorship programs the Presidency could ever run.

#DK/TUF2016
#SaveThePresidency
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

OFFICIAL DK/TUF 2016 Platform: http://www.debate.org...

My Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com...
#SaveThePresidency
#SaveTheSite

-- DK/TUF 2016 --
kasmic
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6/9/2016 12:38:08 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 12:35:54 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/9/2016 12:33:20 AM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved. So the idea that getting them to come here, but having no way of encouraging them to stay, would produce overall less members than the other way around, is built on the false narrative that Government programs are needed for them to want to stay in the first place.

Not gonna lie, being grouped with those members feels pretty good despite the context.

I don't know... The context should make it better. lol
I notice you have a website... Hmmm... Giving me an idea. I'll get back to you on that.

I don't think the context is bad, just saying being group with that list of people is nice. Perhaps I should have said regardless of in place of despite.

Secondly, we do intend to offer ways to mentor and help new members, because new members do enjoy the option, even if they don't always need it.

Harder and Hayd have both stated that our method for outreach (bringing in new members, without encouraging them to stay, a narrative already shown to be false) would produce less members. Ignoring that we do hope to offer new member aid, let's look at the following. If 5 members join on their own over a month, with New Member programs producing a 60% rate of staying, We will have 3 new members. If 10 members join a month because of outreach programs, but a lack of new member programs leaves only a 40% chance of staying, you would still have more members staying. Of course, we aim for that 60% goal as well...

\\===***== Our Goals ==***===//

The only reform I hope for (and I say hope, because I have no intentions of taking over the program from Hayd) would be to have more collaboration among the trainers. When trainers are given a new member to teach, they have complete autonomy and privacy, and this leads to a lack of investment from the trainers, and no responsibility to do a good job. More collaboration with each other would address this.

We would also aim to implement a search and help project. Either me, or a member of the Administration (one of the three pre-planned members, we aren't adding members to the Administration), would find new members and PM them a message informing them of the NEW MEMBERS thread, programs (both public and private) that can help them, current Open Debates, games, and threads they might like, and reminding them to visit the FB page. Most of the time, it's not them being trained and "mentored" that keeps new members around, it's having people welcoming them in and getting them involved. The method of finding new members were be using the Advanced Search to find members who were added within 74 hours, and have at least 1-5 debates.

We would also offer a weekly PM informing them of some Threads, open Debates, and events like competitions and games. Keeping new members informed and engaged does more to keep them around them than anything else. This is why using the FB page to advertise threads and activities would ensure many of the members who visit DDO from the FB page are informed/engaged enough to stay.

\\===***== Final Statements ==***===//

To be frank... The Presidency doesn't keep new members around. The Community does. Our goals aren't to use the presidency to host programs that rarely work. We would instead aim to get new members engaged in the community, and aid the community at doing what it does best.

We would sponsor and aid private community programs and events that target new members, because getting the community engaged with new members and getting new members engaged in the community will do more than all the mentorship programs the Presidency could ever run.

#DK/TUF2016
#SaveThePresidency
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
1harderthanyouthink
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6/9/2016 1:20:40 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved. So the idea that getting them to come here, but having no way of encouraging them to stay, would produce overall less members than the other way around, is built on the false narrative that Government programs are needed for them to want to stay in the first place.

They absolutely aren't needed, but painting me as some sort of statist because I want established members to take an interest in new members is...ridiculous, at best.

Secondly, we do intend to offer ways to mentor and help new members, because new members do enjoy the option, even if they don't always need it.

Harder and Hayd have both stated that our method for outreach (bringing in new members, without encouraging them to stay, a narrative already shown to be false) would produce less members. Ignoring that we do hope to offer new member aid, let's look at the following. If 5 members join on their own over a month, with New Member programs producing a 60% rate of staying, We will have 3 new members. If 10 members join a month because of outreach programs, but a lack of new member programs leaves only a 40% chance of staying, you would still have more members staying. Of course, we aim for that 60% goal as well...

What aid do you even want to give?

\\===***== Our Goals ==***===//

The only reform I hope for (and I say hope, because I have no intentions of taking over the program from Hayd) would be to have more collaboration among the trainers. When trainers are given a new member to teach, they have complete autonomy and privacy, and this leads to a lack of investment from the trainers, and no responsibility to do a good job. More collaboration with each other would address this.

Why bother have mentors?

We would also aim to implement a search and help project. Either me, or a member of the Administration (one of the three pre-planned members, we aren't adding members to the Administration), would find new members and PM them a message informing them of the NEW MEMBERS thread, programs (both public and private) that can help them, current Open Debates, games, and threads they might like, and reminding them to visit the FB page. Most of the time, it's not them being trained and "mentored" that keeps new members around, it's having people welcoming them in and getting them involved. The method of finding new members were be using the Advanced Search to find members who were added within 74 hours, and have at least 1-5 debates.

Hayd does that, and I do it sometimes.

We would also offer a weekly PM informing them of some Threads, open Debates, and events like competitions and games. Keeping new members informed and engaged does more to keep them around them than anything else. This is why using the FB page to advertise threads and activities would ensure many of the members who visit DDO from the FB page are informed/engaged enough to stay.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
1harderthanyouthink
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6/9/2016 1:46:06 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
I'm not going to mince words - this was a terrible thread, and further shows that you have no idea what you're doing. Let's start with this:

They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved.

This was incredibly ironic. Tej and Hayd have directly grown due to mentorship on debating. Tej, Hayd, Whiteflame, Bsh, Bluesteel, JMK, 16k, and maybe a couple more on that list have all supported the use of mentorship for debating in some way - all have mentored or hosted official beginner's tourneys - and in the case of Bluesteel, he created them. Now, I know you aren't going to abolish the beginner's tourneys - and i never said you would, and you saying I have is pathetically false. The point is - a lot of people like to give noobs mentors. Anyway, onto the next point:

The only reform I hope for (and I say hope, because I have no intentions of taking over the program from Hayd) would be to have more collaboration among the trainers. When trainers are given a new member to teach, they have complete autonomy and privacy, and this leads to a lack of investment from the trainers, and no responsibility to do a good job. More collaboration with each other would address this.

So let's start off with that - as President - you basically plan on doing nothing on the site. Why not just have conventions, then? What function do you really serve, aside from posting on the DDO Facebook which you can do already.

Second, mentoring is a personal experience. Diluting it with "collaboration" takes away from that. Personal experiences keep people on this site, and that's the way it has been for a long time. Anyway, next:

We would also aim to implement a search and help project. Either me, or a member of the Administration (one of the three pre-planned members, we aren't adding members to the Administration), would find new members and PM them a message informing them of the NEW MEMBERS thread, programs (both public and private) that can help them, current Open Debates, games, and threads they might like, and reminding them to visit the FB page. Most of the time, it's not them being trained and "mentored" that keeps new members around, it's having people welcoming them in and getting them involved. The method of finding new members were be using the Advanced Search to find members who were added within 74 hours, and have at least 1-5 debates.

None of this is new, except for the Facebook.

We would also offer a weekly PM informing them of some Threads, open Debates, and events like competitions and games. Keeping new members informed and engaged does more to keep them around them than anything else. This is why using the FB page to advertise threads and activities would ensure many of the members who visit DDO from the FB page are informed/engaged enough to stay.

A weekly PM is the best thing you've offered so far.

To be frank... The Presidency doesn't keep new members around. The Community does. Our goals aren't to use the presidency to host programs that rarely work. We would instead aim to get new members engaged in the community, and aid the community at doing what it does best.

We would sponsor and aid private community programs and events that target new members, because getting the community engaged with new members and getting new members engaged in the community will do more than all the mentorship programs the Presidency could ever run.

And this is where I take issue with your approach. The community is there for the individual to become a part of. The reason so many leave is that they can't instill themselves in it.

So what's your answer? Do nothing but post Facebook links? And you think that the noobs will start listening up more? No, they won't. A President needs to devote himself to the community - and I don't see that in your plan. You're giving it all up to random outreach and expecting other members to do the work for you. That's no leader.

The hard work is where a President needs to show that he is interested. That is what captures attention. I have PM'ed several new members, and I have never adhered to some formulaic approach. Obviously C/P'ed PMs are not what brings people in. At this very moment, I try to establish a personal conversation with new members. There's none of that here. I wrote multi-paragraph PMs to new users when I think they need guidance so they can better become parts of the site. That's all they need - guidance from community leaders, not Facebook links.

But I'm not fooled by a sense of overconfidence. I will fail to bring people in a lot of the time. That's the nature of this. You can't expect a 60% retaining level - it's not going to happen. You have to shoot for 100%, and not give in to failure - try to do something different the next time. What can I do here to help this member feel like he or she is joining a unified and fun community with lots of potential? Don't expect anything, but don't be so complacent either. Where's the drive? The passion? Anything but Facebook, Facebook, Facebook?

DK, your administration to me looks exactly like what the abolitionists say - "anyone can do it". I see no drive to actually utilize the Presidency for quality outreach in this platform. That, to me, is not saving the Presidency - it's giving up, even if you don't realize it.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
donald.keller
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6/9/2016 3:42:56 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 1:20:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved. So the idea that getting them to come here, but having no way of encouraging them to stay, would produce overall less members than the other way around, is built on the false narrative that Government programs are needed for them to want to stay in the first place.

They absolutely aren't needed, but painting me as some sort of statist because I want established members to take an interest in new members is...ridiculous, at best.

This is a classic case of mistranslation. Clearly, I intend to keep these programs too. This isn't a concept unique to you. It's clear this only said they weren't needed. I welcome to point out me calling you anything.

Secondly, we do intend to offer ways to mentor and help new members, because new members do enjoy the option, even if they don't always need it.

Harder and Hayd have both stated that our method for outreach (bringing in new members, without encouraging them to stay, a narrative already shown to be false) would produce less members. Ignoring that we do hope to offer new member aid, let's look at the following. If 5 members join on their own over a month, with New Member programs producing a 60% rate of staying, We will have 3 new members. If 10 members join a month because of outreach programs, but a lack of new member programs leaves only a 40% chance of staying, you would still have more members staying. Of course, we aim for that 60% goal as well...

What aid do you even want to give?

The post literally just said the New Members Program, and the Beginners Tourney. Your statement is poorly positioned considering I just said part if what I intend to offer, and literally immidately under your comment, I list my other ideas... it's common to read the thread you are commenting on.

\\===***== Our Goals ==***===//

The only reform I hope for (and I say hope, because I have no intentions of taking over the program from Hayd) would be to have more collaboration among the trainers. When trainers are given a new member to teach, they have complete autonomy and privacy, and this leads to a lack of investment from the trainers, and no responsibility to do a good job. More collaboration with each other would address this.

Why bother have mentors?

If you read my thread, you see me saying new members like the option of getting trained, even if they don't need it to want to stay.

We would also aim to implement a search and help project. Either me, or a member of the Administration (one of the three pre-planned members, we aren't adding members to the Administration), would find new members and PM them a message informing them of the NEW MEMBERS thread, programs (both public and private) that can help them, current Open Debates, games, and threads they might like, and reminding them to visit the FB page. Most of the time, it's not them being trained and "mentored" that keeps new members around, it's having people welcoming them in and getting them involved. The method of finding new members were be using the Advanced Search to find members who were added within 74 hours, and have at least 1-5 debates.

Hayd does that, and I do it sometimes.

I hosted some FATE games, that doesn't you shouldn't also... This really doesn't make us doing it any less good. Besides, you doing it doesn't mean our ideas of copy/pastes of each other. Of course, you didn't really go indepth, so niether can I on our differences.

We would also offer a weekly PM informing them of some Threads, open Debates, and events like competitions and games. Keeping new members informed and engaged does more to keep them around them than anything else. This is why using the FB page to advertise threads and activities would ensure many of the members who visit DDO from the FB page are informed/engaged enough to stay.
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1harderthanyouthink
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6/9/2016 4:14:38 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 3:42:56 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/9/2016 1:20:40 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved. So the idea that getting them to come here, but having no way of encouraging them to stay, would produce overall less members than the other way around, is built on the false narrative that Government programs are needed for them to want to stay in the first place.

They absolutely aren't needed, but painting me as some sort of statist because I want established members to take an interest in new members is...ridiculous, at best.

This is a classic case of mistranslation. Clearly, I intend to keep these programs too. This isn't a concept unique to you. It's clear this only said they weren't needed. I welcome to point out me calling you anything.

You intend to keep these programs by...letting other people do it? What do you do that justifies voting for you?

Secondly, we do intend to offer ways to mentor and help new members, because new members do enjoy the option, even if they don't always need it.

Harder and Hayd have both stated that our method for outreach (bringing in new members, without encouraging them to stay, a narrative already shown to be false) would produce less members. Ignoring that we do hope to offer new member aid, let's look at the following. If 5 members join on their own over a month, with New Member programs producing a 60% rate of staying, We will have 3 new members. If 10 members join a month because of outreach programs, but a lack of new member programs leaves only a 40% chance of staying, you would still have more members staying. Of course, we aim for that 60% goal as well...

What aid do you even want to give?

The post literally just said the New Members Program, and the Beginners Tourney. Your statement is poorly positioned considering I just said part if what I intend to offer, and literally immidately under your comment, I list my other ideas... it's common to read the thread you are commenting on.

Read the ending of my second post. That's what I'm getting at.

\\===***== Our Goals ==***===//

The only reform I hope for (and I say hope, because I have no intentions of taking over the program from Hayd) would be to have more collaboration among the trainers. When trainers are given a new member to teach, they have complete autonomy and privacy, and this leads to a lack of investment from the trainers, and no responsibility to do a good job. More collaboration with each other would address this.

Why bother have mentors?

If you read my thread, you see me saying new members like the option of getting trained, even if they don't need it to want to stay.

No - why bother have mentors if you're going to make it "collaborative". That completely destroys the personal nature of it.

We would also aim to implement a search and help project. Either me, or a member of the Administration (one of the three pre-planned members, we aren't adding members to the Administration), would find new members and PM them a message informing them of the NEW MEMBERS thread, programs (both public and private) that can help them, current Open Debates, games, and threads they might like, and reminding them to visit the FB page. Most of the time, it's not them being trained and "mentored" that keeps new members around, it's having people welcoming them in and getting them involved. The method of finding new members were be using the Advanced Search to find members who were added within 74 hours, and have at least 1-5 debates.

Hayd does that, and I do it sometimes.

I hosted some FATE games, that doesn't you shouldn't also... This really doesn't make us doing it any less good. Besides, you doing it doesn't mean our ideas of copy/pastes of each other. Of course, you didn't really go indepth, so niether can I on our differences.

Yeah, but I'm saying you don't go anywhere with your policy - your outreach is watered down, and your goals meaningless compared to mine,
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tejretics
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6/9/2016 11:43:14 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved.

This isn't a compelling argument. It isn't "needed" is not the same as "it is worthless." It has use, and it's beneficial, and you can't really deny that.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
donald.keller
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6/9/2016 5:18:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 11:43:14 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/8/2016 11:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
\\====***== DK/TUF: Membership Outreach ==***====//

Our opposition has spent a great deal of time misguiding people about our outreach goals, claiming we wish to eliminate the Member Mentorship Program, or the Beginners Tournament. Despite the many times I've stated we were not getting rid of them.

The biggest misinformation so far is that we aim to bring in new members without "mentoring them" so they will stay... To start. They don't need mentorship or Presidential training to want to stay. RoyLatham, Whiteflame, Danielle, TUF, Bsh, Blade-of-Truth, Imbench, Bluesteel, Tej, Subutai, Kasmic, Hayd, Ragnar, JMK, 16K, Lannan, and so many more members have came to become great debaters and members without the Presidency getting involved.

This isn't a compelling argument. It isn't "needed" is not the same as "it is worthless." It has use, and it's beneficial, and you can't really deny that.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I never said it's worthless... In fact, I make clear it's worthwhile... I said it's not needed to make new members stay.
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tejretics
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6/10/2016 11:51:40 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/9/2016 5:18:34 PM, donald.keller wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I never said it's worthless... In fact, I make clear it's worthwhile... I said it's not needed to make new members stay.

No, but it has a *significant* impact and absolutely should stay.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
donald.keller
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6/10/2016 3:17:29 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/10/2016 11:51:40 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/9/2016 5:18:34 PM, donald.keller wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I never said it's worthless... In fact, I make clear it's worthwhile... I said it's not needed to make new members stay.

No, but it has a *significant* impact and absolutely should stay.

I never said it shouldn't stay. I literall said over again here and elsewhere that I have no intentions of getting rid of it.
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tejretics
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6/10/2016 3:18:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/10/2016 3:17:29 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/10/2016 11:51:40 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/9/2016 5:18:34 PM, donald.keller wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I never said it's worthless... In fact, I make clear it's worthwhile... I said it's not needed to make new members stay.

No, but it has a *significant* impact and absolutely should stay.

I never said it shouldn't stay. I literall said over again here and elsewhere that I have no intentions of getting rid of it.

Then what's the point of saying "it's not needed to make new members stay"? It was just wasted effort - but clearly it was intended to respond to something from the 1harder campaign.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
donald.keller
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6/10/2016 6:02:39 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/10/2016 3:18:50 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/10/2016 3:17:29 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/10/2016 11:51:40 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/9/2016 5:18:34 PM, donald.keller wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I never said it's worthless... In fact, I make clear it's worthwhile... I said it's not needed to make new members stay.

No, but it has a *significant* impact and absolutely should stay.

I never said it shouldn't stay. I literall said over again here and elsewhere that I have no intentions of getting rid of it.

Then what's the point of saying "it's not needed to make new members stay"? It was just wasted effort - but clearly it was intended to respond to something from the 1harder campaign.

I said it helps them learn, even if i don't believe it makes them stay in the site. It's beneficial, just not for the reasons Harder says it is.
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MrVindication
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6/10/2016 10:24:48 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/9/2016 12:23:44 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/9/2016 12:12:46 AM, lannan13 wrote:
What makes you sure this would work better than the status quo?

Well to start... The status quo is ran by administrators who volunteer because they are asked to, and not because they want to... Take me. I was given the job of Administrator of Tournaments... I mentioned being interested in several other roles, but got that one. This kind of thing means people are running programs because they were asked to, and not because they wanted to. Private programs avert this.

So instead of advertising Publicly ran programs, or asking new members to join them, we'd promote and send them towards activities ran by members who are fully involved and enthusiastic about what they are doing.

Status quo is wrong in that it presumes "training" members is what makes them stay. Getting members involved in games, events, discussions, and privately ran community programs, is the only way to increase their odds of staying. And that's the point of the Search and Help program (that's not it's name)... Promoting community events, not presidential events. Name 5 members you know who stayed on the site because of a Presidential Program 'mentoring' them, as opposed to staying because because they got involved in the community? This is also why more collaboration among trainers would help. Instead of being stuct with one person, you're working with others, and with other new members. More engagement.

Mentorship programs help new members... But they aren't why members chose to stay.

How do you propose going about targeting and keeping those who join this site just for debating and intellectual discourse through argumentation, not debate?
MrVindication
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6/10/2016 10:25:19 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/10/2016 10:24:48 PM, MrVindication wrote:
At 6/9/2016 12:23:44 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/9/2016 12:12:46 AM, lannan13 wrote:
What makes you sure this would work better than the status quo?

Well to start... The status quo is ran by administrators who volunteer because they are asked to, and not because they want to... Take me. I was given the job of Administrator of Tournaments... I mentioned being interested in several other roles, but got that one. This kind of thing means people are running programs because they were asked to, and not because they wanted to. Private programs avert this.

So instead of advertising Publicly ran programs, or asking new members to join them, we'd promote and send them towards activities ran by members who are fully involved and enthusiastic about what they are doing.

Status quo is wrong in that it presumes "training" members is what makes them stay. Getting members involved in games, events, discussions, and privately ran community programs, is the only way to increase their odds of staying. And that's the point of the Search and Help program (that's not it's name)... Promoting community events, not presidential events. Name 5 members you know who stayed on the site because of a Presidential Program 'mentoring' them, as opposed to staying because because they got involved in the community? This is also why more collaboration among trainers would help. Instead of being stuct with one person, you're working with others, and with other new members. More engagement.

Mentorship programs help new members... But they aren't why members chose to stay.

How do you propose going about targeting and keeping those who join this site just for debating and intellectual discourse through argumentation, not debate?

Not: *the social aspect. Typo.
donald.keller
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6/10/2016 11:37:15 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/10/2016 10:24:48 PM, MrVindication wrote:
At 6/9/2016 12:23:44 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/9/2016 12:12:46 AM, lannan13 wrote:
What makes you sure this would work better than the status quo?

Well to start... The status quo is ran by administrators who volunteer because they are asked to, and not because they want to... Take me. I was given the job of Administrator of Tournaments... I mentioned being interested in several other roles, but got that one. This kind of thing means people are running programs because they were asked to, and not because they wanted to. Private programs avert this.

So instead of advertising Publicly ran programs, or asking new members to join them, we'd promote and send them towards activities ran by members who are fully involved and enthusiastic about what they are doing.

Status quo is wrong in that it presumes "training" members is what makes them stay. Getting members involved in games, events, discussions, and privately ran community programs, is the only way to increase their odds of staying. And that's the point of the Search and Help program (that's not it's name)... Promoting community events, not presidential events. Name 5 members you know who stayed on the site because of a Presidential Program 'mentoring' them, as opposed to staying because because they got involved in the community? This is also why more collaboration among trainers would help. Instead of being stuct with one person, you're working with others, and with other new members. More engagement.

Mentorship programs help new members... But they aren't why members chose to stay.

How do you propose going about targeting and keeping those who join this site just for debating and intellectual discourse through argumentation, not debate?

I don't have to keep them around through that... The site does that for them... Tournaments, competitions, the DDODCL and Census debates, virtually every debate in the debate section... The site already offers all of the ways to keep new debate-happy members around. And we would use PMs and FB to advertise and grow these events. We aim too sponsor and grow community ran events, which are far more effective at keeping new members around than Presidential events.
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tejretics
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6/11/2016 4:00:08 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/10/2016 6:02:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/10/2016 3:18:50 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/10/2016 3:17:29 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/10/2016 11:51:40 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/9/2016 5:18:34 PM, donald.keller wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I never said it's worthless... In fact, I make clear it's worthwhile... I said it's not needed to make new members stay.

No, but it has a *significant* impact and absolutely should stay.

I never said it shouldn't stay. I literall said over again here and elsewhere that I have no intentions of getting rid of it.

Then what's the point of saying "it's not needed to make new members stay"? It was just wasted effort - but clearly it was intended to respond to something from the 1harder campaign.

I said it helps them learn, even if i don't believe it makes them stay in the site. It's beneficial, just not for the reasons Harder says it is.

He never said it's "absolutely necessary" for them to stay on the site - that's just a straw-man.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
donald.keller
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6/11/2016 5:20:24 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 4:00:08 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/10/2016 6:02:39 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/10/2016 3:18:50 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/10/2016 3:17:29 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 6/10/2016 11:51:40 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/9/2016 5:18:34 PM, donald.keller wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I never said it's worthless... In fact, I make clear it's worthwhile... I said it's not needed to make new members stay.

No, but it has a *significant* impact and absolutely should stay.

I never said it shouldn't stay. I literall said over again here and elsewhere that I have no intentions of getting rid of it.

Then what's the point of saying "it's not needed to make new members stay"? It was just wasted effort - but clearly it was intended to respond to something from the 1harder campaign.

I said it helps them learn, even if i don't believe it makes them stay in the site. It's beneficial, just not for the reasons Harder says it is.

He never said it's "absolutely necessary" for them to stay on the site - that's just a straw-man.

I didn't say he said it was absolutely nessacary. I said he stated we didn't have any mentorship programs to keep new members around, and i said that mentorship programs weren't significally needed to keep new members around.
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tejretics
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6/11/2016 5:54:57 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 5:20:24 AM, donald.keller wrote:

Here's basically his point: mentorship programs and user outreach are extremely important, you're not putting much focus into it or its improvement, so vote 1harderthanyouthink. You haven't disputed that they're extremely important - and they are, so there's no point denying that. I could give you a bunch of users helped by it if you want.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
1harderthanyouthink
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6/12/2016 6:20:53 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 5:54:57 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:20:24 AM, donald.keller wrote:

Here's basically his point: mentorship programs and user outreach are extremely important, you're not putting much focus into it or its improvement, so vote 1harderthanyouthink. You haven't disputed that they're extremely important - and they are, so there's no point denying that. I could give you a bunch of users helped by it if you want.

He'll never actually do something that is proven to work. Too much government overreach for his liking - but he can get other people to do the job for him.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King