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Pervading Idiocy re: Fact v. Opinion

YYW
Posts: 36,303
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6/11/2016 8:52:25 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
It is impossible to hold out an opinion as fact, or a fact as an opinion. Facts are facts, because they are facts. Opinions are opinions, because they are opinions. Neither the force nor the method with which either is presented makes one appear as the other.

The critical issue is whether a particular viewer/reader/listener can comprehend and recognize the difference. If you cannot grasp the difference, then you are ignorant.

If I say something like "abortion is a morally acceptable thing to do," that has the precise same meaning and significance as if I say "it is my view that abortion is a morally acceptable thing to do."

Simply saying "it is my opinion that [x], [y], and/or [z]." does not make [x], [y], and/or [z] any more or less an opinion, than simply saying "[x], [y], and/or [z]" would be, if [x], [y], and/or [z] are opinions.

Similarly, simply saying "[x], [y], and/or [z]" does not mean that, if [x], [y], and/or [z] are opinions, that they are being "presented as facts." That's just a stupid thing to say and think.

To make it less abstract, suppose I hold in my hand a chinchilla. I present to you a chinchilla and say that it is a puppy. That's just a factually wrong statement.

Suppose that I tell you that "it is a fact that chinchillas make excellent pets." That's still an opinion, even if I say it like that, and it's not possible to present that as a fact because it's not a fact.

It may be the case that this distinction is over and above the intellectual level of some members of DDO. I hope these members are not the majority.
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ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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6/11/2016 10:09:59 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:08:25 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...

Make that bunny to the left your co-COS, and you've officially got my vote.
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someloser
Posts: 1,377
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6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Raisor
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6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement. Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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6/11/2016 10:30:11 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement.
good point. I'll reconsider

Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?
maybe. further specification (i.e., "excellent" by which standard) would be necessary.

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?
depending on one's stance, could be both, the latter, or the former.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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6/12/2016 8:00:19 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 3:41:31 AM, Mikal wrote:
TLDR

Fact - Whiteflame is a bad moderator

Reads OP

Wait ....... that's an opinion that no one else shares ( http://www.jarofquotes.com... )

/endthread

lol
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bsh1
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6/12/2016 8:01:51 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement. Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?

Perhaps a fact is that which is objectively verifiable or falsifiable, and an opinion is everything else.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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6/12/2016 8:54:35 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 8:01:51 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement. Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?

Perhaps a fact is that which is objectively verifiable or falsifiable, and an opinion is everything else.

A "fact" has to be objectively "verified," not "verifiable." Only then is it a fact.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
bsh1
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6/12/2016 6:35:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 8:54:35 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/12/2016 8:01:51 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement. Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?

Perhaps a fact is that which is objectively verifiable or falsifiable, and an opinion is everything else.

A "fact" has to be objectively "verified," not "verifiable." Only then is it a fact.

Close enough, lol.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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6/12/2016 7:02:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 8:54:35 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/12/2016 8:01:51 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement. Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?

Perhaps a fact is that which is objectively verifiable or falsifiable, and an opinion is everything else.

A "fact" has to be objectively "verified," not "verifiable." Only then is it a fact.

I think labeling anything as a "fact" is hard in general. It's relevant to the information that is known or available at the time, which is always subject to change. So many things in the past have been considered to be "facts", but then have been proven false.

Most claims are subjective in some sense, as it's incredibly hard to objectively prove something to be true because there are limitations on what we know at any point in time.
ShabShoral
Posts: 3,235
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6/12/2016 10:02:12 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 8:01:51 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement. Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?

Perhaps a fact is that which is objectively verifiable or falsifiable, and an opinion is everything else.

With a proper formulation (i.e. with a full definition of what "making an excellent pet" entails), "Chinchillas make excellent pets" is just as open to verification as "Global warming exists" or anything else.
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FourTrouble
Posts: 12,759
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6/13/2016 9:31:32 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:52:25 PM, YYW wrote:
It is impossible to hold out an opinion as fact, or a fact as an opinion. Facts are facts, because they are facts. Opinions are opinions, because they are opinions. Neither the force nor the method with which either is presented makes one appear as the other.

The critical issue is whether a particular viewer/reader/listener can comprehend and recognize the difference. If you cannot grasp the difference, then you are ignorant.

If I say something like "abortion is a morally acceptable thing to do," that has the precise same meaning and significance as if I say "it is my view that abortion is a morally acceptable thing to do."

Simply saying "it is my opinion that [x], [y], and/or [z]." does not make [x], [y], and/or [z] any more or less an opinion, than simply saying "[x], [y], and/or [z]" would be, if [x], [y], and/or [z] are opinions.

Similarly, simply saying "[x], [y], and/or [z]" does not mean that, if [x], [y], and/or [z] are opinions, that they are being "presented as facts." That's just a stupid thing to say and think.

To make it less abstract, suppose I hold in my hand a chinchilla. I present to you a chinchilla and say that it is a puppy. That's just a factually wrong statement.

Suppose that I tell you that "it is a fact that chinchillas make excellent pets." That's still an opinion, even if I say it like that, and it's not possible to present that as a fact because it's not a fact.

It may be the case that this distinction is over and above the intellectual level of some members of DDO. I hope these members are not the majority.

But why should anyone care? Both are debatable. Both are unstable. Where do you see the distinction having a meaningful impact?
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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6/13/2016 12:18:07 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 3:41:31 AM, Mikal wrote:
TLDR

Fact - Whiteflame is a bad moderator

Reads OP

Wait ....... that's an opinion that no one else shares ( http://www.jarofquotes.com... )

/endthread

This is not about whiteflame... dumbass.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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6/13/2016 12:18:45 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement.

False.

Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?
Tsar of DDO
Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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6/13/2016 12:51:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 12:18:45 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:22:04 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:10:23 PM, someloser wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:02:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
So what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

the positive as opposed to the normative.

"Chinchillas make excellent pets" is a positive statement.

False.

Do you agree with OP that it is an opinion?

Is the statement "global warming is not cause by humans" a fact or an opinion?

Go ahead and explain that one.
tejretics
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6/13/2016 1:04:07 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 12:51:18 PM, Raisor wrote:
Go ahead and explain that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

"The world would make a better place if the moon were made of green cheese" isn't a positive statement. Doesn't the same thing apply here?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Raisor
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6/13/2016 3:00:51 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 1:04:07 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/13/2016 12:51:18 PM, Raisor wrote:
Go ahead and explain that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

"The world would make a better place if the moon were made of green cheese" isn't a positive statement. Doesn't the same thing apply here?

What is normative about the chinchilla statement?

X are X is not a normative statement.

There might be some confusion in that the chinchilla statement involves a value judgment, but value judgments are positive statements.

Lincoln was the best president - positive statement
Presidents should aspire to be as good as Lincoln - normative statement

An opinion is any statement of belief, regardless of whether it pertains to positive or normative statements, regardless of whether itinvolves a value judgment or is a statement of an empirical fact.

I believe It is a fact that OP is wrong.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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6/13/2016 4:18:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:52:25 PM, YYW wrote:
It is impossible to hold out an opinion as fact, or a fact as an opinion. Facts are facts, because they are facts. Opinions are opinions, because they are opinions. Neither the force nor the method with which either is presented makes one appear as the other.
You know, I was looking at certain sentence constructions in Late Archaic Chinese today and this line resembles a sentence from Zhuangzi XD
The critical issue is whether a particular viewer/reader/listener can comprehend and recognize the difference. If you cannot grasp the difference, then you are ignorant.

If I say something like "abortion is a morally acceptable thing to do," that has the precise same meaning and significance as if I say "it is my view that abortion is a morally acceptable thing to do."

Simply saying "it is my opinion that [x], [y], and/or [z]." does not make [x], [y], and/or [z] any more or less an opinion, than simply saying "[x], [y], and/or [z]" would be, if [x], [y], and/or [z] are opinions.

Similarly, simply saying "[x], [y], and/or [z]" does not mean that, if [x], [y], and/or [z] are opinions, that they are being "presented as facts." That's just a stupid thing to say and think.
+100000. I'm often quite annoyed when people claim others are dishonest by presenting opinion as fact...
To make it less abstract, suppose I hold in my hand a chinchilla. I present to you a chinchilla and say that it is a puppy. That's just a factually wrong statement.

Suppose that I tell you that "it is a fact that chinchillas make excellent pets." That's still an opinion, even if I say it like that, and it's not possible to present that as a fact because it's not a fact.

It may be the case that this distinction is over and above the intellectual level of some members of DDO. I hope these members are not the majority.
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