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S&G Voting Issues

TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/19/2016 2:46:59 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
So I found a debate that I felt compelled to vote on. I vote and I see that my vote was removed for S&G issues. The issue? Despite, by my count, over 32 total willing spelling and grammar mistakes, it qualified as legible. Among them, using "ppl" "u" and other various abbreviations. So I dislike these new standards. Typo in a debate 6 months ago? Minus 1 point. 32 intentional errors today? Removed vote. I felt like gouging my own eyes out. This is not only a disservice to the debaters, but those voting. I have seen only 1 debate that was truly illegible in my time on DDO. Outcomes on entire debates would be changed if the new restrictions were applied to all debates. This is a disservice and insult to all debaters who lost due to S&G. Why even have an S&G point? Why not all go to select winner? While there were other reasons for the removed vote, that is understandable. But S&G? Really? For 32 errors. Intentional ones. What is the incentive. Spell Check is here for a reason and we should be penalized for not using it.
Peepette
Posts: 1,240
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6/19/2016 5:02:29 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 2:46:59 AM, TheChristian wrote:
So I found a debate that I felt compelled to vote on. I vote and I see that my vote was removed for S&G issues. The issue? Despite, by my count, over 32 total willing spelling and grammar mistakes, it qualified as legible. Among them, using "ppl" "u" and other various abbreviations. So I dislike these new standards. Typo in a debate 6 months ago? Minus 1 point. 32 intentional errors today? Removed vote. I felt like gouging my own eyes out. This is not only a disservice to the debaters, but those voting. I have seen only 1 debate that was truly illegible in my time on DDO. Outcomes on entire debates would be changed if the new restrictions were applied to all debates. This is a disservice and insult to all debaters who lost due to S&G. Why even have an S&G point? Why not all go to select winner? While there were other reasons for the removed vote, that is understandable. But S&G? Really? For 32 errors. Intentional ones. What is the incentive. Spell Check is here for a reason and we should be penalized for not using it.

I agree S&G votes are down right stupid. It has to be unreadable. Capitalization, punctuation and texting abbreviations are not enough of a criteria to vote against. I always tie S&G, it's the safest thing to do unless someone types in Unicode characters. If Juggle ever fixes the site, I hope this is one of the 1st things to go.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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6/19/2016 5:05:35 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 5:02:29 AM, Peepette wrote:
At 6/19/2016 2:46:59 AM, TheChristian wrote:
So I found a debate that I felt compelled to vote on. I vote and I see that my vote was removed for S&G issues. The issue? Despite, by my count, over 32 total willing spelling and grammar mistakes, it qualified as legible. Among them, using "ppl" "u" and other various abbreviations. So I dislike these new standards. Typo in a debate 6 months ago? Minus 1 point. 32 intentional errors today? Removed vote. I felt like gouging my own eyes out. This is not only a disservice to the debaters, but those voting. I have seen only 1 debate that was truly illegible in my time on DDO. Outcomes on entire debates would be changed if the new restrictions were applied to all debates. This is a disservice and insult to all debaters who lost due to S&G. Why even have an S&G point? Why not all go to select winner? While there were other reasons for the removed vote, that is understandable. But S&G? Really? For 32 errors. Intentional ones. What is the incentive. Spell Check is here for a reason and we should be penalized for not using it.

I agree S&G votes are down right stupid. It has to be unreadable. Capitalization, punctuation and texting abbreviations are not enough of a criteria to vote against. I always tie S&G, it's the safest thing to do unless someone types in Unicode characters. If Juggle ever fixes the site, I hope this is one of the 1st things to go.

In contrast to the OP, you have the right idea about S&G. For the most part, the point is often just used to add extra points that are most often not explained at all and just to give extra points to whichever side the voter wants to see win, and that is why there is a specific standard that requires the voter to explain the reason for the point awarded, to the extent that it includes a reason of the debate being difficult to understand due to S&G.
Debate.org Moderator
TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/19/2016 3:10:58 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 5:05:35 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 6/19/2016 5:02:29 AM, Peepette wrote:
At 6/19/2016 2:46:59 AM, TheChristian wrote:
So I found a debate that I felt compelled to vote on. I vote and I see that my vote was removed for S&G issues. The issue? Despite, by my count, over 32 total willing spelling and grammar mistakes, it qualified as legible. Among them, using "ppl" "u" and other various abbreviations. So I dislike these new standards. Typo in a debate 6 months ago? Minus 1 point. 32 intentional errors today? Removed vote. I felt like gouging my own eyes out. This is not only a disservice to the debaters, but those voting. I have seen only 1 debate that was truly illegible in my time on DDO. Outcomes on entire debates would be changed if the new restrictions were applied to all debates. This is a disservice and insult to all debaters who lost due to S&G. Why even have an S&G point? Why not all go to select winner? While there were other reasons for the removed vote, that is understandable. But S&G? Really? For 32 errors. Intentional ones. What is the incentive. Spell Check is here for a reason and we should be penalized for not using it.

I agree S&G votes are down right stupid. It has to be unreadable. Capitalization, punctuation and texting abbreviations are not enough of a criteria to vote against. I always tie S&G, it's the safest thing to do unless someone types in Unicode characters. If Juggle ever fixes the site, I hope this is one of the 1st things to go.

In contrast to the OP, you have the right idea about S&G. For the most part, the point is often just used to add extra points that are most often not explained at all and just to give extra points to whichever side the voter wants to see win, and that is why there is a specific standard that requires the voter to explain the reason for the point awarded, to the extent that it includes a reason of the debate being difficult to understand due to S&G.

I see the potential for abuse, but is it worth it? I mean, the most deplorable S&G is labeled okay as long as it is readable. Willingly making errors is one thing. Accidental ones are another. This person made a number of willing errors, and should be penalized. However, since it was legible, it was labeled OK. And that is the problem I have. if the errors include willing ones, that should be grounds for a vote against them. Most debates would still tie, but it would still be fair to the one who took the time to type out the full words, capitalize, be correct in S&G, and used spell check to ensure no errors, verses the ones who type "u" "ppl" and never capitalize and rarely punctuate. It is a disservice to the debaters and something that, I think, should be an awardable point. 99.9% of debates are legible, so the new criteria renders S&G obsolete, and would change the outcome of some debates if the votes were to adhere to the new standards. My debate 6 months ago, one typo, lost debate. 32 willing errors, legible but unpleasant to read, makes my eyes ache, makes me want to literally surgically remove my eyeballs and burn them so I will be spared the inhumane torture of viewing it, and they still tie. Imagine you read the following sentences in a debate.

Con has yet to disprove ANY of my arguments. My arguments stand

con hasn't disprved 1 of my argumets. my argumets stand.

In the old standards, the first would be the clear winner.

New standards? It's alright. You are pretty much saying what one woman said and saying correcting someone's grammar is racist.
ThinkBig
Posts: 1,610
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6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better presentation of their arguments?
Who had better arguments?
Who had better refutations?
ThinkBig
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Notable Notes and Quotable Quotes
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"I GOT SIG'D"
"WELL FVCK ME IN THE A$SHOLE AND CALL ME A CUCK I GOT SIG'D AGAIN"
-Kiri
If anyone's getting modkilled, it's kiri. Just for his sig.
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Need a judge or vote? Nominate me!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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6/19/2016 3:23:26 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 2:46:59 AM, TheChristian wrote:

Firstly this kind of thing should be handled in a PM with the vote moderator, but failing that, please link the debate in question.

As for single typo votes not being deleted a year ago, I hope they simply were not reported. ... Either way, as other commenters have explained, S&G is only to punish truly awful behavior, when someone harms the legibility of their own case to the point where it is hard to follow.

I tend to view as as still within the tied range for honest mistakes (even if somewhat numerous), but if it looks like they're trying to Strawman (or worse) their own case, S&G gets penalized.

I hate it when people complain this site is not a live debate, but to use an analogy; imagine if you were judging a live debate and one of the debaters wore black face and traded out an entire syllable for another ("uh" instead of "er") each time language dictated it be used. Translate it back to here, and if there's a decent judge, they could still win arguments (unlikely, but possible) but S&G is lost by their own choice.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/20/2016 1:03:07 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better presentation of their arguments?
Who had better arguments?
Who had better refutations?

Then why the fvck do we have spell check?
TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/20/2016 1:06:19 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 3:23:26 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 6/19/2016 2:46:59 AM, TheChristian wrote:

Firstly this kind of thing should be handled in a PM with the vote moderator, but failing that, please link the debate in question.

I'll do it in a minute.
As for single typo votes not being deleted a year ago, I hope they simply were not reported. ... Either way, as other commenters have explained, S&G is only to punish truly awful behavior, when someone harms the legibility of their own case to the point where it is hard to follow.

I tend to view as as still within the tied range for honest mistakes (even if somewhat numerous), but if it looks like they're trying to Strawman (or worse) their own case, S&G gets penalized.

I hate it when people complain this site is not a live debate, but to use an analogy; imagine if you were judging a live debate and one of the debaters wore black face and traded out an entire syllable for another ("uh" instead of "er") each time language dictated it be used. Translate it back to here, and if there's a decent judge, they could still win arguments (unlikely, but possible) but S&G is lost by their own choice.

But these were willing, numerous errors.
TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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6/20/2016 2:10:17 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 3:23:26 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 6/19/2016 2:46:59 AM, TheChristian wrote:

Firstly this kind of thing should be handled in a PM with the vote moderator, but failing that, please link the debate in question.

As for single typo votes not being deleted a year ago, I hope they simply were not reported. ... Either way, as other commenters have explained, S&G is only to punish truly awful behavior, when someone harms the legibility of their own case to the point where it is hard to follow.

I tend to view as as still within the tied range for honest mistakes (even if somewhat numerous), but if it looks like they're trying to Strawman (or worse) their own case, S&G gets penalized.

I hate it when people complain this site is not a live debate, but to use an analogy; imagine if you were judging a live debate and one of the debaters wore black face and traded out an entire syllable for another ("uh" instead of "er") each time language dictated it be used. Translate it back to here, and if there's a decent judge, they could still win arguments (unlikely, but possible) but S&G is lost by their own choice.

http://www.debate.org...

Debate is still over...
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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6/20/2016 2:20:58 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better presentation of their arguments?
Who had better arguments?
Who had better refutations?
+1
fire_wings
Posts: 5,563
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6/20/2016 2:53:57 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

1. Who did you agree with before the debate?
2. Who did you agree with after the debate?
3. Who had better conduct?
4. Who had better presentation of their arguments?
5. Who had better arguments?
6. Who had better refutations?

And 1 will be 0 points, 2 will be one point, 3 will be one point, 4 will be 2 points, 5 and 6 will be three points. So it is 100 points, and it fits.
#ALLHAILFIRETHEKINGOFTHEMISCFORUM

...it's not a new policy... it's just that DDO was built on an ancient burial ground, and that means the spirits of old rise again to cause us problems sometimes- Airmax1227

Wtf you must have an IQ of 250 if you're 11 and already decent at this- 16k

Go to sleep!!!!- missmozart

So to start off, I never committed suicide- Vaarka
famousdebater
Posts: 3,943
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6/20/2016 3:41:32 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better presentation of their arguments?
Who had better arguments?
Who had better refutations?

I don't like the idea of having arguments and refutations as mutually exclusive point allocations. Under the heading of arguments come rebuttals, counter rebuttals, conclusions, etc. Different point allocations for each round makes the debate too obscure, especially in voting. Just having one set of points allocated for all rounds makes it a lot simpler.

Also, the argument presentation point allocation seems a little pointless to me. How does that have anything to do with content? I'd be pretty upset if I lost a debate in which I was winning on argument but had many people vote against me on presentation. The debate isn't about presentation it's about content.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
famousdebater
Posts: 3,943
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6/20/2016 3:43:07 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 2:53:57 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

1. Who did you agree with before the debate?
2. Who did you agree with after the debate?
3. Who had better conduct?
4. Who had better presentation of their arguments?
5. Who had better arguments?
6. Who had better refutations?

And 1 will be 0 points, 2 will be one point, 3 will be one point, 4 will be 2 points, 5 and 6 will be three points. So it is 100 points, and it fits.

Why would 2 be 1 point?
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
fire_wings
Posts: 5,563
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6/20/2016 3:46:47 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 3:43:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 6/20/2016 2:53:57 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

1. Who did you agree with before the debate?
2. Who did you agree with after the debate?
3. Who had better conduct?
4. Who had better presentation of their arguments?
5. Who had better arguments?
6. Who had better refutations?

And 1 will be 0 points, 2 will be one point, 3 will be one point, 4 will be 2 points, 5 and 6 will be three points. So it is 100 points, and it fits.

Why would 2 be 1 point?

because agreeing after means you are convinced.
#ALLHAILFIRETHEKINGOFTHEMISCFORUM

...it's not a new policy... it's just that DDO was built on an ancient burial ground, and that means the spirits of old rise again to cause us problems sometimes- Airmax1227

Wtf you must have an IQ of 250 if you're 11 and already decent at this- 16k

Go to sleep!!!!- missmozart

So to start off, I never committed suicide- Vaarka
famousdebater
Posts: 3,943
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6/20/2016 3:58:40 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 3:46:47 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 6/20/2016 3:43:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 6/20/2016 2:53:57 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

1. Who did you agree with before the debate?
2. Who did you agree with after the debate?
3. Who had better conduct?
4. Who had better presentation of their arguments?
5. Who had better arguments?
6. Who had better refutations?

And 1 will be 0 points, 2 will be one point, 3 will be one point, 4 will be 2 points, 5 and 6 will be three points. So it is 100 points, and it fits.

Why would 2 be 1 point?

because agreeing after means you are convinced.

We have that in the status quo and it is 0 points. There's a reason for that. It encourages and allows vote bombing. Anybody could just say that they were subjectively convinced by USER X and vote 1 point for them.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
tejretics
Posts: 6,091
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6/20/2016 4:03:07 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better presentation of their arguments?
Who had better arguments?
Who had better refutations?

This is alright, but the "choose winner" system is still better.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
famousdebater
Posts: 3,943
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6/20/2016 4:08:27 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 4:03:07 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better presentation of their arguments?
Who had better arguments?
Who had better refutations?

This is alright, but the "choose winner" system is still better.

Do you believe that this is better than the 7 point system?
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
tejretics
Posts: 6,091
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6/20/2016 4:09:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 4:08:27 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 6/20/2016 4:03:07 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better presentation of their arguments?
Who had better arguments?
Who had better refutations?

This is alright, but the "choose winner" system is still better.

Do you believe that this is better than the 7 point system?

Almost anything is better than the 7-point system...
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
famousdebater
Posts: 3,943
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6/20/2016 4:10:39 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 4:09:06 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/20/2016 4:08:27 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 6/20/2016 4:03:07 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/19/2016 3:18:12 PM, ThinkBig wrote:
I would totally change the entire ballot. Here's how I would change it:

Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better presentation of their arguments?
Who had better arguments?
Who had better refutations?

This is alright, but the "choose winner" system is still better.

Do you believe that this is better than the 7 point system?

Almost anything is better than the 7-point system...

This is basically identical, apart from the fact that refutation are considered separately from arguments and presentation of arguments is also included.

I personally dislike both of these and prefer the 7 point system to this (though I prefer select winner over both).
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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6/20/2016 5:36:14 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 1:06:19 AM, TheChristian wrote:
At 6/19/2016 3:23:26 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 6/19/2016 2:46:59 AM, TheChristian wrote:

Firstly this kind of thing should be handled in a PM with the vote moderator, but failing that, please link the debate in question.

I'll do it in a minute.

As for single typo votes not being deleted a year ago, I hope they simply were not reported. ... Either way, as other commenters have explained, S&G is only to punish truly awful behavior, when someone harms the legibility of their own case to the point where it is hard to follow.

I tend to view as as still within the tied range for honest mistakes (even if somewhat numerous), but if it looks like they're trying to Strawman (or worse) their own case, S&G gets penalized.

I hate it when people complain this site is not a live debate, but to use an analogy; imagine if you were judging a live debate and one of the debaters wore black face and traded out an entire syllable for another ("uh" instead of "er") each time language dictated it be used. Translate it back to here, and if there's a decent judge, they could still win arguments (unlikely, but possible) but S&G is lost by their own choice.

But these were willing, numerous errors.

Here is your RFD, with S&G highlighted: "3 points to Pro (Arguments), 2 points to Con (Conduct, S&G). Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited multiple times. Even though it was for good reason, still ff. Pro also made multiple grammar and spelling errors. Pro and Con both cited holy books of two religions however, and while the number of sources is irrelevant, quality is present in both, in equal amounts."

Almost everyone has "multiple grammar and spelling errors" on any debate, what I believe you meant to explain is what you explained here, or in short: Pro failed at punctuation, capitalization, general sentence structure, used random abbreviations instead of words, and did it all intentionally as stated here "u dont know your judism... oh wait u will see more grammar errors enjoy!" ... Or in short: Pro conceded S&G with (in addition to his countless errors), he summarized his intent to make his argument unreadable: "u dont know your judism... oh wait u will see more grammar errors enjoy!"

Do you see the difference between either of the above samples, and just vaguely stating that mistakes happened?

As a reminder: The voting moderator does not read the debates, they don't have the available resources for that on every debate a vote is reported on.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...