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Is it possible to be impartial while voting?

zmikecuber
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6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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6/20/2016 10:09:07 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
The topic should say completely impartial. Not enough character space.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Jerry947
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6/20/2016 10:12:28 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?

It is impossible for an RFD to be unbiased. I get more convinced of that every time I read someone's RFD.
zmikecuber
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6/20/2016 10:14:03 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:12:28 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?

It is impossible for an RFD to be unbiased. I get more convinced of that every time I read someone's RFD.

I agree. I think we can try and keep it to a minimal, and be objective as possible (I certainly try my best to do this while voting), but ultimately people tend to vote for who they found more persuasive. And lots of the times, people find the person they agree with to be more persuasive.

This goes for the old standards of voting, and the current standards of voting. Yet another reason I am skeptical that the new voting standards are so much better.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
bsh1
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6/20/2016 10:19:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
I would agree with the assessment it is impossible to be 100% impartial, but I think people can be more impartial than not. I know I have had rounds where I sorely wanted to give the win to one debater, but I just couldn't, because I knew that the other debater had won, as much as I did not want to admit it.
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PetersSmith
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6/20/2016 10:20:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?

Lol, no.
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zmikecuber
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6/20/2016 10:20:27 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:19:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I would agree with the assessment it is impossible to be 100% impartial, but I think people can be more impartial than not. I know I have had rounds where I sorely wanted to give the win to one debater, but I just couldn't, because I knew that the other debater had won, as much as I did not want to admit it.

This is true.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Ragnar
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6/20/2016 10:20:54 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
What do you guys think?

I'd say bias is along a scale. At one end there's debates where we don't actually care and find the topic boring. At the other end there are debates where our bias is overwhelming (I know some mentally unstable people complain endlessly, but I still refuse to vote on abortion debates due to the strength of my bias clearly clouding my judgement). For any decent voter most votes are at neither extreme (if you find it all boring, you would not stay around to vote; if your bias is dictating the outcome of most your votes, you've hopefully lost voting privileges).

One minor benefit to the 7 point system, is the educational value that when voting it intentionally reminds people that who we agree with both before and after is not supposed to be what we assign points for. I've actually completely changed my mind on topics, and voted against the side I ended up in agreement with.
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zmikecuber
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6/20/2016 10:21:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:19:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I would agree with the assessment it is impossible to be 100% impartial, but I think people can be more impartial than not. I know I have had rounds where I sorely wanted to give the win to one debater, but I just couldn't, because I knew that the other debater had won, as much as I did not want to admit it.

But there may be times where your desire to vote for someone clouded your judgment, and you didn't even realize it. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, sure, but still...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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6/20/2016 10:22:27 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:20:54 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
What do you guys think?

I'd say bias is along a scale. At one end there's debates where we don't actually care and find the topic boring. At the other end there are debates where our bias is overwhelming (I know some mentally unstable people complain endlessly, but I still refuse to vote on abortion debates due to the strength of my bias clearly clouding my judgement). For any decent voter most votes are at neither extreme (if you find it all boring, you would not stay around to vote; if your bias is dictating the outcome of most your votes, you've hopefully lost voting privileges).

One minor benefit to the 7 point system, is the educational value that when voting it intentionally reminds people that who we agree with both before and after is not supposed to be what we assign points for. I've actually completely changed my mind on topics, and voted against the side I ended up in agreement with.

Could you explain this last paragraph more please?
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
bsh1
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6/20/2016 10:22:53 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:21:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:19:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I would agree with the assessment it is impossible to be 100% impartial, but I think people can be more impartial than not. I know I have had rounds where I sorely wanted to give the win to one debater, but I just couldn't, because I knew that the other debater had won, as much as I did not want to admit it.

But there may be times where your desire to vote for someone clouded your judgment, and you didn't even realize it. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, sure, but still...

Oh, I have no doubt it has. But I think I am pretty good at catching myself most of the time.
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zmikecuber
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6/20/2016 10:24:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:22:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:21:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:19:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I would agree with the assessment it is impossible to be 100% impartial, but I think people can be more impartial than not. I know I have had rounds where I sorely wanted to give the win to one debater, but I just couldn't, because I knew that the other debater had won, as much as I did not want to admit it.

But there may be times where your desire to vote for someone clouded your judgment, and you didn't even realize it. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, sure, but still...

Oh, I have no doubt it has. But I think I am pretty good at catching myself most of the time.

That's not a very good claim. If you have no idea how big the sample size is of a population, you can't say that "I catch myself 90% of the time." Thus, you can't asses how "good" you are at catching yourself.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
bsh1
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6/20/2016 10:30:30 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:24:18 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:22:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:21:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:19:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I would agree with the assessment it is impossible to be 100% impartial, but I think people can be more impartial than not. I know I have had rounds where I sorely wanted to give the win to one debater, but I just couldn't, because I knew that the other debater had won, as much as I did not want to admit it.

But there may be times where your desire to vote for someone clouded your judgment, and you didn't even realize it. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, sure, but still...

Oh, I have no doubt it has. But I think I am pretty good at catching myself most of the time.

That's not a very good claim. If you have no idea how big the sample size is of a population, you can't say that "I catch myself 90% of the time." Thus, you can't asses how "good" you are at catching yourself.

Zmike, I think you're perhaps overthinking it. It was a comment rooted in my intuition about myself--take it for what it is, not as some kind of statistical analysis.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


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zmikecuber
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6/20/2016 10:31:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:30:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:24:18 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:22:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:21:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:19:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I would agree with the assessment it is impossible to be 100% impartial, but I think people can be more impartial than not. I know I have had rounds where I sorely wanted to give the win to one debater, but I just couldn't, because I knew that the other debater had won, as much as I did not want to admit it.

But there may be times where your desire to vote for someone clouded your judgment, and you didn't even realize it. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, sure, but still...

Oh, I have no doubt it has. But I think I am pretty good at catching myself most of the time.

That's not a very good claim. If you have no idea how big the sample size is of a population, you can't say that "I catch myself 90% of the time." Thus, you can't asses how "good" you are at catching yourself.

Zmike, I think you're perhaps overthinking it. It was a comment rooted in my intuition about myself--take it for what it is, not as some kind of statistical analysis.

Alright, that is definitely a good thing though if you do catch yourself sometimes and ignore your biases.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
bsh1
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6/20/2016 10:35:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:31:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:30:30 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:24:18 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:22:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:21:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:19:16 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I would agree with the assessment it is impossible to be 100% impartial, but I think people can be more impartial than not. I know I have had rounds where I sorely wanted to give the win to one debater, but I just couldn't, because I knew that the other debater had won, as much as I did not want to admit it.

But there may be times where your desire to vote for someone clouded your judgment, and you didn't even realize it. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, sure, but still...

Oh, I have no doubt it has. But I think I am pretty good at catching myself most of the time.

That's not a very good claim. If you have no idea how big the sample size is of a population, you can't say that "I catch myself 90% of the time." Thus, you can't asses how "good" you are at catching yourself.

Zmike, I think you're perhaps overthinking it. It was a comment rooted in my intuition about myself--take it for what it is, not as some kind of statistical analysis.

Alright, that is definitely a good thing though if you do catch yourself sometimes and ignore your biases.

Yeah, I agree. If voters didn't experience that on occasion, I'd be concerned.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Ragnar
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6/20/2016 10:36:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:22:27 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:20:54 PM, Ragnar wrote:
One minor benefit to the 7 point system, is the educational value that when voting it intentionally reminds people that who we agree with both before and after is not supposed to be what we assign points for. I've actually completely changed my mind on topics, and voted against the side I ended up in agreement with.

Could you explain this last paragraph more please?

7point's walk people through it, holding their hand more than is ideally needed... The first two things you rate when voting on it is "Who did you agree with before the debate?(0 Points)" and "Who did you agree with after the debate?(0 Points)" before getting into the different categories of points.

Any new member who is simply confused instead of intentionally negligent, is told right then and there if they are treating it as a popularity vote instead of a fair judgement, they're in the wrong. Comparatively under Select Winner there is just one question "Who did you believe won the debate?" (not even a little question mark to be clicked on for clarification)

As for switching sides but voting against my new bias on an issue, I know it's counterintuitive, but I often read into sources to a greater extent than they're analysed. If things that were not touched upon in the debate changed my mind on a topic, those things cannot be credited to the debaters (at least for argument points, or Select Winner in general). There's other examples, but it is admittedly rare.
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Cryo
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6/20/2016 10:57:56 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
I'd agree that it is impossible to be completely impartial when voting. We can, and should, be as impartial as possible, and rely on objective standards and information wherever we can. However, our decisions will always be influenced by our own personalities. Whatever information we are given will always be filtered through our own beliefs, experiences, desires, etc.

In the end, we want what we want, and if the stakes are high enough and we see a chance to secure our desired outcome, we'll take it. Impartiality be damned.
Biodome
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6/20/2016 11:13:49 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Generally, it's impossible to be completely impartial. But it's often possible to minimize the impact of your biases if you're careful and aware of what you're doing.
Blade-of-Truth
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6/20/2016 11:50:58 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?

I don't think it's 100% possible unless you've trained yourself after years of experience to be able to go into every debate with a tabula rasa mentality both in regard to the topic and debaters partaking. It's certainly possible, but only in very rare cases based on my own experiences and observations. With that said, I do believe doing so is the best form of judging debates, and really anything in life. That way, you truly have no incentive or pre-conceived notions to vote one way or another and can process the information in a much more objective manner than before.

Heck, we can even go further to cases of judges literally reading the debate in the hopes of one side doing better or worse than the other. In a philosophical sense, we choose how to interpret information and data, so we can literally be perceiving something differently than how most others would solely because we *want* to view it in a certain way. That, in my opinion, is the worst kind of bias, because the judge/perceiver is not only affecting others but also themselves in terms of how they are perceiving things.

The real question, for me, is to what degree does bias become an issue? People have friends, loved ones, or even hated enemies debating on this site, and being in the position I'm in I've had the opportunity to see some extreme cases of bias influencing the RFD of a judge. It certainly exists and acts as a net harm to everyone except the person on the positive-receiving end of such bias.

I think, ultimately, it's harder for more passionate people to vote impartially due to the very nature of being passionate. If one experiences deep emotional connections to a person or topic then they are going to have a harder time voting with a tabula rasa mentality. The best thing one can do is to check themselves, which in itself is a hard thing to do. It requires alot of self-awareness and patience, and can be quite frustrating when trying to challenge your own self and personal desires. However, if someone is capable of judging debates in a tabula rasa manner, then they are a judge I want for my debates.
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Wylted
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6/21/2016 12:10:05 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
If I don't care one way or another for the resolution, debaters or arguments used, I can't even think subconscious bias would have an effect
Wylted
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6/21/2016 12:14:01 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Often I disagree with both sides and have bever even interacted with the debaters. I am not sure how I would be biased in those circumstances.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/21/2016 2:03:38 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?

Every one of my votes is completely impartial so yes.
zmikecuber
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6/21/2016 2:06:13 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:03:38 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?

Every one of my votes is completely impartial so yes.

Seems legit.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/21/2016 2:10:11 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:06:13 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:03:38 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?

Every one of my votes is completely impartial so yes.

Seems legit.

Not saying everyone is or can be impartial immediately. But it's absolutely possible to put aside your own feelings on the matter and analyze the arguments purely based on who argued better and analyze how the arguments clashed. I know because I've voted on issues that I've felt strongly about and I never felt like I had to recuse myself due to being unable to cast an impartial vote. I know whiteflame and Raisor also fall into the same category. With practice and effort, everyone can get to that point.
Romanii
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6/21/2016 2:32:09 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

That is correct. There's obviously some amount of subjectivity involved in judging, because the debaters (usually) don't definitively resolve every clash within the text of the debate. When they don't, it's up to the voter to connect the dots for themselves, and that's where personal biases inevitably come into play.
zmikecuber
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6/21/2016 2:47:15 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:32:09 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

That is correct. There's obviously some amount of subjectivity involved in judging, because the debaters (usually) don't definitively resolve every clash within the text of the debate. When they don't, it's up to the voter to connect the dots for themselves, and that's where personal biases inevitably come into play.

Yes. Ultimately one debater *always* has the last word. You end up subjectively deciding how to weight his final remarks... There's no real measuring stick to measure how convincing an argument is.
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6/21/2016 2:51:22 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/21/2016 2:10:11 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:06:13 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 6/21/2016 2:03:38 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/20/2016 10:07:29 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
Discuss.

I'd say that, for all practical purposes, it's impossible to be completely impartial when voting. Ultimately, there's always going to be some sort of subjective interpretation of the debate which will affect your vote, even to a slight degree.

In particular, on issues we feel passionate about. I have consistently seen users vote in favor of who they agree with.. I'm not saying their votes were bad, because they weren't... Of course, sometimes they vote for the person they don't agree with (and it's still a valid vote), but when a debate tends to be close, I think personal biases come into voters' decision making alot more than we'd like to admit.

What do you guys think?

Every one of my votes is completely impartial so yes.

Seems legit.

Not saying everyone is or can be impartial immediately. But it's absolutely possible to put aside your own feelings on the matter and analyze the arguments purely based on who argued better and analyze how the arguments clashed. I know because I've voted on issues that I've felt strongly about and I never felt like I had to recuse myself due to being unable to cast an impartial vote. I know whiteflame and Raisor also fall into the same category. With practice and effort, everyone can get to that point.

Weighing arguments is completey subjective. Assuming no rebuttals occur, how do you weigh the modal ontological argument against the problem of evil argument?