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Vote Moderation

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/1/2016 2:28:31 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
So this is the debate/vote that made me realize voting moderation is really a joke after all. While I think it has a net benefit, this proves how flimsy the standards are. It's problematic, inconsistent, and obviously subjective but frustratingly so.

http://www.debate.org...

Basically I debated harrytruman on legalized polygamy. He ignored almost every single one of my arguments and clearly lost. Just skim the debate and you will see that his rounds are just a few paragraphs long and don't even mention the arguments I made.

In his RFD, Theguy1789 singled out 3 of about a dozen arguments and said that my opponent had won 2/3 of them. He didn't mention the numerous arguments that my opponent completely dropped. Again, just look at the rounds and you will see based on length alone (let alone if you just skim them) that my opponent didn't even scratch the surface of my case. He literally dropped the vast majority of my contentions.

Whiteflame said Theguy's vote wasn't removed because "The voter clearly explains their decision by analyzing specific arguments by both debaters." Yet by analyzing 3 specific arguments -- it doesn't account for all the other completely dropped arguments. How convenient. Why does this not matter in voting moderation? I can understand that the mods don't have time to read every debate and that policing the votes too thoroughly might seem biased. But this doesn't make any sense.

That would be like me reading a debate that is 90% in favor of Pro, but then singling out two points that Con won, only mentioning THOSE in the RFD and giving the win to Con while ignoring all of Pro's winning or dropped points. Specifying what you are voting on doesn't mean you are actually providing a thorough RFD. It's interesting that so long as you specify what you are voting on, your RFD can be complete trash and yet remain as legitimate. Any thoughts on how to combat this for the sake of better voting on this site? I don't want to bully the mods, but I think we could try to advocate a better system because their reaction to the vote on this debate is pretty whack.
President of DDO
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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7/1/2016 2:50:49 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 2:28:31 AM, Danielle wrote:

I specifically remember seeing this vote and thinking that it's unfortunately one of those cases where I can tell it's not exactly a good vote, but where the standards simply don't address this type of thing.

If someone really wants to get around the standards, and vote ideologically (twist their vote in whatever way to vote based on the resolution), or just outright badly, it's definitely possible. I don't believe that anyone in vote moderation (or anyone knowledgeable about the standards) is under the illusion that the standards can possibly prevent all bad votes, it simply makes them less likely - and even then a vote that meets the standards hardly means that it's a good vote.

The standards are available in, what I believe, is a very easy to understand format, and I've always known that they aren't all encompassing to prevent this type of thing (and I am very reluctant to make it more strict, though there is a stricter opt in format for those interested). It's simply designed to find the best balance between making voting accessible, but reduce the worst types of votes.

The following are the standards (Post 2), what do you think we could add that could prevent this, while not making voting policies too strict?

https://www.debate.org...

I don't believe there is any easy answer to this, but as with most things around here, it's a work in progress, and we'd certainly like to make it more ideal while keeping in mind that we want to find a good balance that most people are comfortable with.
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lannan13
Posts: 23,075
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7/1/2016 3:07:11 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
I've ironically had similiar issues from this guy as well. My opponent had also was HarryTruman. A coinicidense?
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

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airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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7/1/2016 3:17:17 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 3:07:11 AM, lannan13 wrote:
I've ironically had similiar issues from this guy as well. My opponent had also was HarryTruman. A coinicidense?

While I don't think it's generally appropriate to make these types of accusations publicly, and we need to be careful when we do that, there actually is an issue here that I forgot about (the guys name is just so generic, and I handled this awhile ago). I'm not going into any details, but this member has been specifically banned from voting on HarryTruman's debates. Please report any that you see.

Naturally the vote on Danielle's debate will be removed for reasons outside of conventional vote moderation, so I guess the direct issue is moot, but the general point Danielle brought up is one that is certainly worthy of discussion.
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lannan13
Posts: 23,075
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7/1/2016 3:29:18 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 3:17:17 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/1/2016 3:07:11 AM, lannan13 wrote:
I've ironically had similiar issues from this guy as well. My opponent had also was HarryTruman. A coinicidense?

While I don't think it's generally appropriate to make these types of accusations publicly, and we need to be careful when we do that, there actually is an issue here that I forgot about (the guys name is just so generic, and I handled this awhile ago). I'm not going into any details, but this member has been specifically banned from voting on HarryTruman's debates. Please report any that you see.

Naturally the vote on Danielle's debate will be removed for reasons outside of conventional vote moderation, so I guess the direct issue is moot, but the general point Danielle brought up is one that is certainly worthy of discussion.

tbh I wasn't really complaing, I was generally thinking a loud and found the similarity a bit funny. Sorry if I caused confusion.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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7/1/2016 3:32:04 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 3:29:18 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 7/1/2016 3:17:17 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/1/2016 3:07:11 AM, lannan13 wrote:
I've ironically had similiar issues from this guy as well. My opponent had also was HarryTruman. A coinicidense?

While I don't think it's generally appropriate to make these types of accusations publicly, and we need to be careful when we do that, there actually is an issue here that I forgot about (the guys name is just so generic, and I handled this awhile ago). I'm not going into any details, but this member has been specifically banned from voting on HarryTruman's debates. Please report any that you see.

Naturally the vote on Danielle's debate will be removed for reasons outside of conventional vote moderation, so I guess the direct issue is moot, but the general point Danielle brought up is one that is certainly worthy of discussion.

tbh I wasn't really complaing,

I didn't take it that way so no worries.

I was generally thinking a loud and found the similarity a bit funny. Sorry if I caused confusion.

It's ok, I just meant in general that multi accusations (or something similar) are best done in private. But I'm happy that you mentioned it because it jogged my memory and you were in fact correct to think something was up.
Debate.org Moderator
lannan13
Posts: 23,075
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7/1/2016 3:35:14 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 3:32:04 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/1/2016 3:29:18 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 7/1/2016 3:17:17 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/1/2016 3:07:11 AM, lannan13 wrote:
I've ironically had similiar issues from this guy as well. My opponent had also was HarryTruman. A coinicidense?

While I don't think it's generally appropriate to make these types of accusations publicly, and we need to be careful when we do that, there actually is an issue here that I forgot about (the guys name is just so generic, and I handled this awhile ago). I'm not going into any details, but this member has been specifically banned from voting on HarryTruman's debates. Please report any that you see.

Naturally the vote on Danielle's debate will be removed for reasons outside of conventional vote moderation, so I guess the direct issue is moot, but the general point Danielle brought up is one that is certainly worthy of discussion.

tbh I wasn't really complaing,

I didn't take it that way so no worries.

I was generally thinking a loud and found the similarity a bit funny. Sorry if I caused confusion.

It's ok, I just meant in general that multi accusations (or something similar) are best done in private. But I'm happy that you mentioned it because it jogged my memory and you were in fact correct to think something was up.

IDK, when I looked into it I found it a bit strange that I had originally faced the guy in a "homosexuality is against the Bible" debate where he lost and HarryTruman voted for him on the debate, but it got removed. HarryTruman challenged me to the same debate and stated that "The other guy soured the debate" where this person ended up voting in his favor. I found that a bit strange, but it doesn't really bother me all that much.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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7/2/2016 1:53:26 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
I did a pretty good review on that "voter" awhile back... http://www.debate.org...
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
ThinkBig
Posts: 1,610
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7/2/2016 2:56:19 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/2/2016 1:53:26 AM, Ragnar wrote:
I did a pretty good review on that "voter" awhile back... http://www.debate.org...

The guy is definitely using a multi. Not only what you said, but his first three debates (enough to give him the right to vote) were with Harrytruman!
ThinkBig
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YYW
Posts: 36,296
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7/3/2016 4:27:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
The way whiteflame moderates is complete nonsense, mainly because he doesn't understand the standards as they are written. This really appears to be an instance where his lack of judgment resulted in his doing an objectively bad thing. There are many instances of this, throughout his tenure as a vote moderator, even though this is by far one of the less regretful things he's done.
Tsar of DDO