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Presidency/Abolition Referendum discussion

1harderthanyouthink
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7/8/2016 8:58:46 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
I'm making a thread for arguing for/against the Presidency and abolition before any referendum takes place - which is a very real thing. I don't know when exactly it is set for, but I believe it will happen somewhere between tonight and right after the election ends.

So, for the sake of caution, I'm creating this now. Argue for both sides, and whatever either outcome may entail.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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7/8/2016 9:02:27 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
No referendum should happen for awhile. Give it two to three weeks, so that all sides have ample time to discuss and new voters can get informed.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/8/2016 9:06:54 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
We should wait 3 months. It will give us enough time to discuss it and make rules to prevent the things that people have a problem with happening in this election.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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7/8/2016 9:07:48 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:06:54 PM, Wylted wrote:
We should wait 3 months. It will give us enough time to discuss it and make rules to prevent the things that people have a problem with happening in this election.

At that point you might as well just wait for the next election.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/8/2016 9:10:04 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:07:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:06:54 PM, Wylted wrote:
We should wait 3 months. It will give us enough time to discuss it and make rules to prevent the things that people have a problem with happening in this election.

At that point you might as well just wait for the next election.

Seriously? It is not that long of a time, and 3 months is a good amount of time to transition out of a presidency.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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7/8/2016 9:10:55 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:10:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:07:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:06:54 PM, Wylted wrote:
We should wait 3 months. It will give us enough time to discuss it and make rules to prevent the things that people have a problem with happening in this election.

At that point you might as well just wait for the next election.

Seriously? It is not that long of a time, and 3 months is a good amount of time to transition out of a presidency.

Yes. That is a "long time".
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/8/2016 9:15:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:10:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:10:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:07:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:06:54 PM, Wylted wrote:
We should wait 3 months. It will give us enough time to discuss it and make rules to prevent the things that people have a problem with happening in this election.

At that point you might as well just wait for the next election.

Seriously? It is not that long of a time, and 3 months is a good amount of time to transition out of a presidency.

Yes. That is a "long time".

Then you deserve all the kid insults F16 throws your way
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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7/8/2016 9:18:40 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:15:36 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:10:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:10:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:07:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:06:54 PM, Wylted wrote:
We should wait 3 months. It will give us enough time to discuss it and make rules to prevent the things that people have a problem with happening in this election.

At that point you might as well just wait for the next election.

Seriously? It is not that long of a time, and 3 months is a good amount of time to transition out of a presidency.

Yes. That is a "long time".

Then you deserve all the kid insults F16 throws your way

That's not really going to help you.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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7/8/2016 9:20:04 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:02:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
No referendum should happen for awhile. Give it two to three weeks, so that all sides have ample time to discuss and new voters can get informed.

Lol, Airmax is thinking about doing it tonight.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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7/8/2016 9:24:34 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:20:04 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:02:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
No referendum should happen for awhile. Give it two to three weeks, so that all sides have ample time to discuss and new voters can get informed.

Lol, Airmax is thinking about doing it tonight.

I think, obviously, that such a course of action would be hasty and ill-advised. That is why I posted as I did.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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7/8/2016 9:38:25 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:20:04 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:02:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
No referendum should happen for awhile. Give it two to three weeks, so that all sides have ample time to discuss and new voters can get informed.

Lol, Airmax is thinking about doing it tonight.

The reason for this was that this election was set to be the referendum. It was just DK and Bench, and everyone acknowledged this. It's also one of the reasons I dropped.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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7/8/2016 9:52:37 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
We could always carry out F16s idea. Send every member on the site (or specifically members that contributed to the "golden age") a pm with the option to vote on the sites direction. It's totally okay if they have not logged on in 3 years, we can hope they come back. Then when they do come back, we can have a "true" site consensus on what direction we should go in.

On a more realistic note

The referendum should be done tonight as max was planning with 3 primary choices

Abolish
Keep
Convention
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/8/2016 9:55:51 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
This election was never going to be a vote for abolition or not. I would have voted Bench ober DK and I was pro presidency. A random announcement on that vote is inappropriat. We haven't evwn had a chance to negotiate a fair way to handle this particular vote
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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7/8/2016 9:59:37 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:52:37 PM, Mikal wrote:
We could always carry out F16s idea. Send every member on the site (or specifically members that contributed to the "golden age") a pm with the option to vote on the sites direction. It's totally okay if they have not logged on in 3 years, we can hope they come back. Then when they do come back, we can have a "true" site consensus on what direction we should go in.


On a more realistic note

The referendum should be done tonight as max was planning with 3 primary choices

Abolish
Keep
Convention

Yeah, I don't care about when it's held, but a three choice runoff would be a good option.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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7/8/2016 10:10:46 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:52:37 PM, Mikal wrote:
We could always carry out F16s idea. Send every member on the site (or specifically members that contributed to the "golden age") a pm with the option to vote on the sites direction. It's totally okay if they have not logged on in 3 years, we can hope they come back. Then when they do come back, we can have a "true" site consensus on what direction we should go in.


On a more realistic note

The referendum should be done tonight as max was planning with 3 primary choices

Abolish
Keep
Convention

I think that a mandate should be required to move forward with any option, so whatever the top two choices are should be pitted against each other after the first referendum.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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7/8/2016 10:24:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 10:10:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:52:37 PM, Mikal wrote:
We could always carry out F16s idea. Send every member on the site (or specifically members that contributed to the "golden age") a pm with the option to vote on the sites direction. It's totally okay if they have not logged on in 3 years, we can hope they come back. Then when they do come back, we can have a "true" site consensus on what direction we should go in.


On a more realistic note

The referendum should be done tonight as max was planning with 3 primary choices

Abolish
Keep
Convention

I think that a mandate should be required to move forward with any option, so whatever the top two choices are should be pitted against each other after the first referendum.

Or just do ranked runoff. It's much more simple.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
imabench
Posts: 21,216
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7/9/2016 12:00:21 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
The proper thing to do would have Wylted disqualified as a candidate since he dropped out do the race ages ago and resorted to completely unethical behavior to court votes from people, let those who voted for him vote for Me, DK, or to straight up abolish the presidency like YYW wanted to do with his vote..... It's not only the democratic thing to do, it would also be easy to install and not completely screw over all the work me and DK have sunk into campaigning up to this point.

If Wylted doesn't like that, he can go f*ck himself like the piece of sh*t he is :)
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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7/9/2016 12:02:06 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 12:00:21 AM, imabench wrote:
The proper thing to do would have Wylted disqualified as a candidate since he dropped out do the race ages ago and resorted to completely unethical behavior to court votes from people, let those who voted for him vote for Me, DK, or to straight up abolish the presidency like YYW wanted to do with his vote..... It's not only the democratic thing to do, it would also be easy to install and not completely screw over all the work me and DK have sunk into campaigning up to this point.

If Wylted doesn't like that, he can go f*ck himself like the piece of sh*t he is :)

Is stuff like this that makes me want to vote for Wylted.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/9/2016 12:06:31 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 12:00:21 AM, imabench wrote:
The proper thing to do would have Wylted disqualified as a candidate since he dropped out do the race ages ago and resorted to completely unethical behavior to court votes from people, let those who voted for him vote for Me, DK, or to straight up abolish the presidency like YYW wanted to do with his vote..... It's not only the democratic thing to do, it would also be easy to install and not completely screw over all the work me and DK have sunk into campaigning up to this point.

If Wylted doesn't like that, he can go f*ck himself like the piece of sh*t he is :)

You are trying to change the rules because you are too stupid to put up a competent campaign, but I'm the piece of shitt?

Dude stop crying. Stop trying to have the rules xhanged because you are too much of a pvssy to handle a loss. Hell you'll probably cry and threaten to leave or kill yourself when this is over, you little baby.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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7/9/2016 12:18:09 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 12:06:31 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 7/9/2016 12:00:21 AM, imabench wrote:
The proper thing to do would have Wylted disqualified as a candidate since he dropped out do the race ages ago and resorted to completely unethical behavior to court votes from people, let those who voted for him vote for Me, DK, or to straight up abolish the presidency like YYW wanted to do with his vote..... It's not only the democratic thing to do, it would also be easy to install and not completely screw over all the work me and DK have sunk into campaigning up to this point.

If Wylted doesn't like that, he can go f*ck himself like the piece of sh*t he is :)

You are trying to change the rules because you are too stupid to put up a competent campaign, but I'm the piece of shitt?
^^...vvThis is how you treat members who disagree with you? vv...^^

Dude stop crying. Stop trying to have the rules xhanged because you are too much of a pvssy to handle a loss. Hell you'll probably cry and threaten to leave or kill yourself when this is over, you little baby.
I'm sorry I voted for you - you Satanic piece of shit. Are you having fun with your power trip? You don't care about the community. I threw my vote away on you.

You can't even get passed the swearing filter.
imabench
Posts: 21,216
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7/9/2016 12:23:50 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 12:06:31 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 7/9/2016 12:00:21 AM, imabench wrote:
The proper thing to do would have Wylted disqualified as a candidate since he dropped out do the race ages ago and resorted to completely unethical behavior to court votes from people, let those who voted for him vote for Me, DK, or to straight up abolish the presidency like YYW wanted to do with his vote..... It's not only the democratic thing to do, it would also be easy to install and not completely screw over all the work me and DK have sunk into campaigning up to this point.

If Wylted doesn't like that, he can go f*ck himself like the piece of sh*t he is :)

You are trying to change the rules because you are too stupid to put up a competent campaign, but I'm the piece of shitt?

Im not trying to have the rules changed, im trying to have you be Disqualified as a candidate since youve resorted to every dirty tactic in the book to secure votes while me and DK have actually played a clean game.

And yes, you are the piece of sh*t. If you and your brainwashed supporters have issue accepting that, thats their/your problem, not mine :)

Dude stop crying. Stop trying to have the rules xhanged because you are too much of a pvssy to handle a loss. Hell you'll probably cry and threaten to leave or kill yourself when this is over, you little baby.

You realize im FOR abolition right? Or has that thought not crossed your mind? XD If the presidency is abolished at the end of the day then thats a win in my book, because Conventions were an invention purley for making abolition a legitimate option to vote for (something you failed to do last election if I recall correctly)

By all means, continue to be a whiny b*tch just because youre not the only one using behind the scenes tactics in the race anymore. Its fun to watch you squirm ;)
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
Posts: 21,216
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7/9/2016 12:24:39 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 12:18:09 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/9/2016 12:06:31 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 7/9/2016 12:00:21 AM, imabench wrote:
The proper thing to do would have Wylted disqualified as a candidate since he dropped out do the race ages ago and resorted to completely unethical behavior to court votes from people, let those who voted for him vote for Me, DK, or to straight up abolish the presidency like YYW wanted to do with his vote..... It's not only the democratic thing to do, it would also be easy to install and not completely screw over all the work me and DK have sunk into campaigning up to this point.

If Wylted doesn't like that, he can go f*ck himself like the piece of sh*t he is :)

You are trying to change the rules because you are too stupid to put up a competent campaign, but I'm the piece of shitt?
^^...vvThis is how you treat members who disagree with you? vv...^^

Dude stop crying. Stop trying to have the rules xhanged because you are too much of a pvssy to handle a loss. Hell you'll probably cry and threaten to leave or kill yourself when this is over, you little baby.
I'm sorry I voted for you.

Yeah nice job being one of the idiots who wylted tricked into supporting him. You fit in perfect with his other legion of idiots who are trying to steal the election here
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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7/9/2016 12:36:19 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 12:24:39 AM, imabench wrote:
At 7/9/2016 12:18:09 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/9/2016 12:06:31 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 7/9/2016 12:00:21 AM, imabench wrote:
The proper thing to do would have Wylted disqualified as a candidate since he dropped out do the race ages ago and resorted to completely unethical behavior to court votes from people, let those who voted for him vote for Me, DK, or to straight up abolish the presidency like YYW wanted to do with his vote..... It's not only the democratic thing to do, it would also be easy to install and not completely screw over all the work me and DK have sunk into campaigning up to this point.

If Wylted doesn't like that, he can go f*ck himself like the piece of sh*t he is :)

You are trying to change the rules because you are too stupid to put up a competent campaign, but I'm the piece of shitt?
^^...vvThis is how you treat members who disagree with you? vv...^^

Dude stop crying. Stop trying to have the rules xhanged because you are too much of a pvssy to handle a loss. Hell you'll probably cry and threaten to leave or kill yourself when this is over, you little baby.
I'm sorry I voted for you.

Yeah nice job being one of the idiots who wylted tricked into supporting him. You fit in perfect with his other legion of idiots who are trying to steal the election here

I don't appreciate being called an idiot, but it is actually warranted in this instance.
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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7/9/2016 4:04:21 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:52:37 PM, Mikal wrote:
Abolish
Keep
Convention

The problem is, if abolition votes are split between Convention and Abolish, then Keep will win. But every abolitionist will prefer the other abolitionist stance to keeping the Presidency.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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7/9/2016 4:44:49 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 4:04:21 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:52:37 PM, Mikal wrote:
Abolish
Keep
Convention

The problem is, if abolition votes are split between Convention and Abolish, then Keep will win. But every abolitionist will prefer the other abolitionist stance to keeping the Presidency.

That's why I want a top two runoff.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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7/9/2016 4:46:32 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 4:44:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That's why I want a top two runoff.

No, what I want is a presidency vs. any form of abolition primary, and then a vote between the two kinds of abolition.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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7/9/2016 4:52:48 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 4:46:32 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 7/9/2016 4:44:49 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That's why I want a top two runoff.

No, what I want is a presidency vs. any form of abolition primary, and then a vote between the two kinds of abolition.

I don't like that.

If abolition wins, it is bound to have convention-style abbies voting for abolition. In the second referendum, it will have involved the entire site - including those voting to keep the Presidency - so pure abolition is near impossible in your proposal.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,287
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7/9/2016 4:56:38 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 9:55:51 PM, Wylted wrote:
This election was never going to be a vote for abolition or not.

This is exactly correct.

I would have voted Bench ober DK and I was pro presidency. A random announcement on that vote is inappropriat. We haven't evwn had a chance to negotiate a fair way to handle this particular vote

Yes, and dislike of DK likely would have bolstered the abolitionist perspective in any event.

A referendum is the only way to fairly determine what people want, because many don't want the conventions (mostly because they are stupid).
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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7/9/2016 4:59:11 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 4:04:21 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 7/8/2016 9:52:37 PM, Mikal wrote:
Abolish
Keep
Convention

The problem is, if abolition votes are split between Convention and Abolish, then Keep will win. But every abolitionist will prefer the other abolitionist stance to keeping the Presidency.

Obviously, which is why the site must decide whether to abolish the presidency before it decides what if anything to replace it with, and that much has been clear from the start.

F16's idea is stupid and Mikal's suggesting it here is even more so.
Tsar of DDO
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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7/9/2016 5:00:20 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 4:59:11 AM, YYW wrote:
F16's idea is stupid and Mikal's suggesting it here is even more so.

Mikal was trolling about that - that's why he said "on a more realistic note."
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass