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Seven Talking Points Regarding Change Here

YYW
Posts: 36,316
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7/9/2016 6:14:53 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
I want to be really clear about some things based on what I've read in the past few weeks.... and I've got seven talking points that need to be touched on:

First, the notion that somehow any member of the site can individually change anything isn't practical or reasonable. People have to work together if they want to see improvements in any community, and this community is not the exception to that rule. In the same sense, just as one person cannot "fix" the site, nor can one person "hurt" the site in a way that dilapidates it overall. While some people contribute more or less than other people, the challenge we face is decidedly one of collective action.

Second, because the challenge we face is one of collective action, there are many things that will have no impact at all on whether this place is the kind of place we want it to be. While I think abolishing the presidency would be a good step in the right direction, it is just one step, and improving the site is in the same sense not per se contingent upon abolishing the presidency. What that means is that whether you support abolition or not, or the conventions, or whatever, we can all agree that, to the extent the site needs to be improved, we can improve it.

Third, DDO is not burning. There has been a lot of sound and fury lately from a lot of people who don't have a clear sense of perspective as to where the site is, or what impact individual members have on it, or do not have on it. Ostensibly these people have those views, some of which have been articulated pretty emphatically, and voice them, because they want to improve the site and I'm willing to give those people the benefit of the doubt even if I think based on historical events that they do not in any sense deserve it. The point, though, is that no matter what has animated individual people to action here, and no matter what kind of action they've been animated towards, it's a reasonable conclusion to reach that they're doing it because of a common goal. The only areas of difference are how we go about improving the site.

Fourth, those areas of difference are what should frame our discussion, and by implication, should limit the scope of what we're quibbling about. There are a lot of people here who have very strong personalities and I'm willing to listen to and work with anyone--no matter my individual feelings towards them--towards the common goal of making this place better. That's the kind of commitment, however, that each and every one of us is going to have to make before we can begin to make progress, though.

Fifth, given that we all have to make an individual commitment to working together and checking our personal feelings about each other at the door, the real question is whether any of us are willing to do it. The whole problem is that we're all seeing the worst in one another and we all want to blame everyone else for everything we think is wrong with the site, and some people have even gone so far as to engage in crusade-type efforts to lambast people, when the reality is that those individuals have no understanding of what it's actually going to take to get us where we want to go. There's a lot of ground work that has to be laid first, because if we don't lay that out, then we're at best putting the cart before the horse. If we just blame everyone else for a whole bunch of stuff we don't understand and then jump right into alternative policies, then we're just living in a fantasy world if we think that's a strategy that's conducive towards change. It's not.

Sixth, we've got to acknowledge that change in any form is going to be slow. Even though DDO is not burning as some people would suggest, we do have some problems and those problems didn't happen overnight. As others have suggested, they've built themselves up over a long period of time and they persist because of shifting expectations about what's acceptable and expected on the site. While Max, through moderation, has made some attempt to address those shifted norms and expectations by increasing the way he's banned people for trivialities, that's not really had a whole lot of effect, nor should we expect it to.

So, seventh, once we get to the point where we can all agree that we're going to work together in good faith (that's the groundwork I was talking about above), then we can start to move to the point where we're *doing things* that shift those norms and expectations. I want to be very clear here that moderation does not define what those norms and expectations are; it's what people in the forums actually do that define what this community is. Here's two examples: (1) If everybody whines and complains, then everybody else is going to whine and complain, and we're a community of whiners and complainers. Conversely, (2) if we start to have some good discussions in the forums about issues that interest us, and we keep at those conversations without engaging in activities that kill discussion's potential for continuing (like calling anyone who disagrees with you a racist or a bigot), then we'll start to see progress in the way of making this place better. But it's a collective action problem at the core, and solving it requires everyone doing the right thing here. No individual person is going to solve the problems we face.

So those are the seven points. And this is what we've got to do if we want to see change.
Tsar of DDO
SeventhProfessor
Posts: 5,087
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7/9/2016 8:39:30 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 6:14:53 PM, YYW wrote:
I want to be really clear about some things based on what I've read in the past few weeks.... and I've got seven talking points that need to be touched on:

First, the notion that somehow any member of the site can individually change anything isn't practical or reasonable. People have to work together if they want to see improvements in any community, and this community is not the exception to that rule. In the same sense, just as one person cannot "fix" the site, nor can one person "hurt" the site in a way that dilapidates it overall. While some people contribute more or less than other people, the challenge we face is decidedly one of collective action.

Second, because the challenge we face is one of collective action, there are many things that will have no impact at all on whether this place is the kind of place we want it to be. While I think abolishing the presidency would be a good step in the right direction, it is just one step, and improving the site is in the same sense not per se contingent upon abolishing the presidency. What that means is that whether you support abolition or not, or the conventions, or whatever, we can all agree that, to the extent the site needs to be improved, we can improve it.

Third, DDO is not burning. There has been a lot of sound and fury lately from a lot of people who don't have a clear sense of perspective as to where the site is, or what impact individual members have on it, or do not have on it. Ostensibly these people have those views, some of which have been articulated pretty emphatically, and voice them, because they want to improve the site and I'm willing to give those people the benefit of the doubt even if I think based on historical events that they do not in any sense deserve it. The point, though, is that no matter what has animated individual people to action here, and no matter what kind of action they've been animated towards, it's a reasonable conclusion to reach that they're doing it because of a common goal. The only areas of difference are how we go about improving the site.

Fourth, those areas of difference are what should frame our discussion, and by implication, should limit the scope of what we're quibbling about. There are a lot of people here who have very strong personalities and I'm willing to listen to and work with anyone--no matter my individual feelings towards them--towards the common goal of making this place better. That's the kind of commitment, however, that each and every one of us is going to have to make before we can begin to make progress, though.

Fifth, given that we all have to make an individual commitment to working together and checking our personal feelings about each other at the door, the real question is whether any of us are willing to do it. The whole problem is that we're all seeing the worst in one another and we all want to blame everyone else for everything we think is wrong with the site, and some people have even gone so far as to engage in crusade-type efforts to lambast people, when the reality is that those individuals have no understanding of what it's actually going to take to get us where we want to go. There's a lot of ground work that has to be laid first, because if we don't lay that out, then we're at best putting the cart before the horse. If we just blame everyone else for a whole bunch of stuff we don't understand and then jump right into alternative policies, then we're just living in a fantasy world if we think that's a strategy that's conducive towards change. It's not.

Sixth, we've got to acknowledge that change in any form is going to be slow. Even though DDO is not burning as some people would suggest, we do have some problems and those problems didn't happen overnight. As others have suggested, they've built themselves up over a long period of time and they persist because of shifting expectations about what's acceptable and expected on the site. While Max, through moderation, has made some attempt to address those shifted norms and expectations by increasing the way he's banned people for trivialities, that's not really had a whole lot of effect, nor should we expect it to.

So, seventh, once we get to the point where we can all agree that we're going to work together in good faith (that's the groundwork I was talking about above), then we can start to move to the point where we're *doing things* that shift those norms and expectations. I want to be very clear here that moderation does not define what those norms and expectations are; it's what people in the forums actually do that define what this community is. Here's two examples: (1) If everybody whines and complains, then everybody else is going to whine and complain, and we're a community of whiners and complainers. Conversely, (2) if we start to have some good discussions in the forums about issues that interest us, and we keep at those conversations without engaging in activities that kill discussion's potential for continuing (like calling anyone who disagrees with you a racist or a bigot), then we'll start to see progress in the way of making this place better. But it's a collective action problem at the core, and solving it requires everyone doing the right thing here. No individual person is going to solve the problems we face.

So those are the seven points. And this is what we've got to do if we want to see change.

wrong
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
Rosalie
Posts: 4,612
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7/9/2016 8:42:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 8:39:30 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 7/9/2016 6:14:53 PM, YYW wrote:
I want to be really clear about some things based on what I've read in the past few weeks.... and I've got seven talking points that need to be touched on:

First, the notion that somehow any member of the site can individually change anything isn't practical or reasonable. People have to work together if they want to see improvements in any community, and this community is not the exception to that rule. In the same sense, just as one person cannot "fix" the site, nor can one person "hurt" the site in a way that dilapidates it overall. While some people contribute more or less than other people, the challenge we face is decidedly one of collective action.

Second, because the challenge we face is one of collective action, there are many things that will have no impact at all on whether this place is the kind of place we want it to be. While I think abolishing the presidency would be a good step in the right direction, it is just one step, and improving the site is in the same sense not per se contingent upon abolishing the presidency. What that means is that whether you support abolition or not, or the conventions, or whatever, we can all agree that, to the extent the site needs to be improved, we can improve it.

Third, DDO is not burning. There has been a lot of sound and fury lately from a lot of people who don't have a clear sense of perspective as to where the site is, or what impact individual members have on it, or do not have on it. Ostensibly these people have those views, some of which have been articulated pretty emphatically, and voice them, because they want to improve the site and I'm willing to give those people the benefit of the doubt even if I think based on historical events that they do not in any sense deserve it. The point, though, is that no matter what has animated individual people to action here, and no matter what kind of action they've been animated towards, it's a reasonable conclusion to reach that they're doing it because of a common goal. The only areas of difference are how we go about improving the site.

Fourth, those areas of difference are what should frame our discussion, and by implication, should limit the scope of what we're quibbling about. There are a lot of people here who have very strong personalities and I'm willing to listen to and work with anyone--no matter my individual feelings towards them--towards the common goal of making this place better. That's the kind of commitment, however, that each and every one of us is going to have to make before we can begin to make progress, though.

Fifth, given that we all have to make an individual commitment to working together and checking our personal feelings about each other at the door, the real question is whether any of us are willing to do it. The whole problem is that we're all seeing the worst in one another and we all want to blame everyone else for everything we think is wrong with the site, and some people have even gone so far as to engage in crusade-type efforts to lambast people, when the reality is that those individuals have no understanding of what it's actually going to take to get us where we want to go. There's a lot of ground work that has to be laid first, because if we don't lay that out, then we're at best putting the cart before the horse. If we just blame everyone else for a whole bunch of stuff we don't understand and then jump right into alternative policies, then we're just living in a fantasy world if we think that's a strategy that's conducive towards change. It's not.

Sixth, we've got to acknowledge that change in any form is going to be slow. Even though DDO is not burning as some people would suggest, we do have some problems and those problems didn't happen overnight. As others have suggested, they've built themselves up over a long period of time and they persist because of shifting expectations about what's acceptable and expected on the site. While Max, through moderation, has made some attempt to address those shifted norms and expectations by increasing the way he's banned people for trivialities, that's not really had a whole lot of effect, nor should we expect it to.

So, seventh, once we get to the point where we can all agree that we're going to work together in good faith (that's the groundwork I was talking about above), then we can start to move to the point where we're *doing things* that shift those norms and expectations. I want to be very clear here that moderation does not define what those norms and expectations are; it's what people in the forums actually do that define what this community is. Here's two examples: (1) If everybody whines and complains, then everybody else is going to whine and complain, and we're a community of whiners and complainers. Conversely, (2) if we start to have some good discussions in the forums about issues that interest us, and we keep at those conversations without engaging in activities that kill discussion's potential for continuing (like calling anyone who disagrees with you a racist or a bigot), then we'll start to see progress in the way of making this place better. But it's a collective action problem at the core, and solving it requires everyone doing the right thing here. No individual person is going to solve the problems we face.

So those are the seven points. And this is what we've got to do if we want to see change.

wrong

+1
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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7/9/2016 8:59:02 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 8:45:39 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
YYW is in no position to recommend policy changes.

While I agree to some level

The post itself had very good content thoguh
YYW
Posts: 36,316
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7/9/2016 9:25:32 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
You are either a part of the problem or you are a part of the solution. Benshapiro clearly is part of the problem, as are Seventh and Rosalie, although seventh I can look past because he is trolling.

But Bens perspective here has no place, because in no way does it contribute to anything positive at all. Same with Mikal to the extent that he is going to engage in ad hominem fallacies and other kinds of improper conduct.
Tsar of DDO
Mikal
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7/9/2016 9:47:47 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 9:25:32 PM, YYW wrote:
You are either a part of the problem or you are a part of the solution. Benshapiro clearly is part of the problem, as are Seventh and Rosalie, although seventh I can look past because he is trolling.

But Bens perspective here has no place, because in no way does it contribute to anything positive at all. Same with Mikal to the extent that he is going to engage in ad hominem fallacies and other kinds of improper conduct.

I actually said I like the content of the post, but ok?
YYW
Posts: 36,316
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7/9/2016 10:07:55 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 9:47:47 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 7/9/2016 9:25:32 PM, YYW wrote:
You are either a part of the problem or you are a part of the solution. Benshapiro clearly is part of the problem, as are Seventh and Rosalie, although seventh I can look past because he is trolling.

But Bens perspective here has no place, because in no way does it contribute to anything positive at all. Same with Mikal to the extent that he is going to engage in ad hominem fallacies and other kinds of improper conduct.

I actually said I like the content of the post, but ok?

I'm glad you like the content. Your agreement with the useless comment made by Benshapiro was not welcome, and does not contribute to any kind of improvement to the site.

Either you're in it to improve, or you're not.
Tsar of DDO
SeventhProfessor
Posts: 5,087
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7/9/2016 10:23:59 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 9:25:32 PM, YYW wrote:
You are either a part of the problem or you are a part of the solution. Benshapiro clearly is part of the problem, as are Seventh and Rosalie, although seventh I can look past because he is trolling.

This is absolutely ridiculous. I have told you and airmax both to stop attacking my character whenever we disagree, and you continue to do it. I'm getting really tired of this website.
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
YYW
Posts: 36,316
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7/9/2016 10:25:19 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 10:23:59 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 7/9/2016 9:25:32 PM, YYW wrote:
You are either a part of the problem or you are a part of the solution. Benshapiro clearly is part of the problem, as are Seventh and Rosalie, although seventh I can look past because he is trolling.

This is absolutely ridiculous. I have told you and airmax both to stop attacking my character whenever we disagree, and you continue to do it. I'm getting really tired of this website.

lol
Tsar of DDO
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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7/9/2016 10:26:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 10:07:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/9/2016 9:47:47 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 7/9/2016 9:25:32 PM, YYW wrote:
You are either a part of the problem or you are a part of the solution. Benshapiro clearly is part of the problem, as are Seventh and Rosalie, although seventh I can look past because he is trolling.

But Bens perspective here has no place, because in no way does it contribute to anything positive at all. Same with Mikal to the extent that he is going to engage in ad hominem fallacies and other kinds of improper conduct.

I actually said I like the content of the post, but ok?

I'm glad you like the content. Your agreement with the useless comment made by Benshapiro was not welcome, and does not contribute to any kind of improvement to the site.

Either you're in it to improve, or you're not.

I agree that it's not constructive so I'll concede because of the purpose of this thread. You have my apologies
YYW
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7/9/2016 11:16:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/9/2016 10:26:01 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 7/9/2016 10:07:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/9/2016 9:47:47 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 7/9/2016 9:25:32 PM, YYW wrote:
You are either a part of the problem or you are a part of the solution. Benshapiro clearly is part of the problem, as are Seventh and Rosalie, although seventh I can look past because he is trolling.

But Bens perspective here has no place, because in no way does it contribute to anything positive at all. Same with Mikal to the extent that he is going to engage in ad hominem fallacies and other kinds of improper conduct.

I actually said I like the content of the post, but ok?

I'm glad you like the content. Your agreement with the useless comment made by Benshapiro was not welcome, and does not contribute to any kind of improvement to the site.

Either you're in it to improve, or you're not.

I agree that it's not constructive so I'll concede because of the purpose of this thread. You have my apologies

Apologies accepted.
Tsar of DDO
SeventhProfessor
Posts: 5,087
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7/10/2016 4:29:09 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/10/2016 3:52:33 PM, YYW wrote:
Bumping this.

This thread does not deserve to be bumped. Please refrain from doing so in the future.
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
YYW
Posts: 36,316
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7/10/2016 4:29:52 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/10/2016 4:29:09 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 7/10/2016 3:52:33 PM, YYW wrote:
Bumping this.

This thread does not deserve to be bumped. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

Thank you for bumping ;)
Tsar of DDO
tejretics
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7/10/2016 5:06:52 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
I pretty much agree with all of this, and all of this has come to my mind at some point or the other.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
YYW
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7/10/2016 5:20:02 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/10/2016 5:06:52 PM, tejretics wrote:
I pretty much agree with all of this, and all of this has come to my mind at some point or the other.

Cheers. I hope that together we can all make this place better. It's one thing to talk about all the things that are wrong with the site, but it's another entirely to make a real effort in the way of improvement.

My hope is that what I've outlined here will lay the foundation for that. But it's going to be a lengthy process... there are a lot of people who have to cooperate to make this happen.
Tsar of DDO