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***Post Presidency Community Discussion***

Mikal
Posts: 11,271
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7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Baring nothing short of a miracle or ungodly unethical tactics, we can assume the presidency will be effectively abolished as of this Wednesday. The reason I am hosting this discussion is for the community to engage in both discussion and discourse in an attempt to find what direction that we as a community need to go. Without a figurehead for the community, and without a bridge to moderation there is a *very small* void left that needs to be filled. There has been a great deal of discussion about what to do in order to fill that void. It is optimal to have a direct bridge to moderation that represents the community, but we don't need a president to do that. Here are a few ideas that have been tossed out in order to achieve that void.

(1) Conventions
(2) Councils
(3) Elected Representatives (Cabinet)
(4) Airmax Dictatorship

I'm bipartisan on most of these as I think they all seek to achieve the same thing, which is not give one person the ability to confront moderation about issues. The goal seems to have a common theme which is community input as a whole to direct moderation.

If I'm forced to an idea, I like the idea of Conventions and Councils with an open setting. Like once a month hold a thread that addresses all the sites issues and problems, and leave it open for everyone to offer feedback in and participate in. There are different variants of this as well, but as I said that seems to be the common theme.

(1) What are your thoughts?
(2) What would you like to see implemented ?
(3) In your opinion was is the most effective way to bridge the gap between the community and moderation?
(4) What site issues would you like to see fixed and prioritized?
(5) What are some projects that we could implement to help give CPR to the community?
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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7/17/2016 7:00:59 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I vote we literally do nothing for at least 6 months and just see if sh*t works out that way
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Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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7/17/2016 7:03:59 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
Baring nothing short of a miracle or ungodly unethical tactics, we can assume the presidency will be effectively abolished as of this Wednesday. The reason I am hosting this discussion is for the community to engage in both discussion and discourse in an attempt to find what direction that we as a community need to go. Without a figurehead for the community, and without a bridge to moderation there is a *very small* void left that needs to be filled. There has been a great deal of discussion about what to do in order to fill that void. It is optimal to have a direct bridge to moderation that represents the community, but we don't need a president to do that. Here are a few ideas that have been tossed out in order to achieve that void.

(1) Conventions
(2) Councils
(3) Elected Representatives (Cabinet)
(4) Airmax Dictatorship

I'm bipartisan on most of these as I think they all seek to achieve the same thing, which is not give one person the ability to confront moderation about issues. The goal seems to have a common theme which is community input as a whole to direct moderation.

If I'm forced to an idea, I like the idea of Conventions and Councils with an open setting. Like once a month hold a thread that addresses all the sites issues and problems, and leave it open for everyone to offer feedback in and participate in. There are different variants of this as well, but as I said that seems to be the common theme.


(1) What are your thoughts?
(2) What would you like to see implemented ?
(3) In your opinion was is the most effective way to bridge the gap between the community and moderation?
(4) What site issues would you like to see fixed and prioritized?
(5) What are some projects that we could implement to help give CPR to the community?
I'd like absolutely NOTHING to be implemented. YYW's referendum post proved that the community can come together and instigate change when an issue truly matters to the community. If there is ever a serious dispute with moderation, a well known member can post a thread and request community support (or opposition) to the issue at hand. I'm sure less well known members could do so as well, but I don't think that those threads would get enough responders to confirm that it is an issue that the community is concerned about.

I think members should continue to run their own programs, and encourage members to participate in them.
YYW
Posts: 36,426
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7/17/2016 7:16:13 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 7:00:59 PM, imabench wrote:
I vote we literally do nothing for at least 6 months and just see if sh*t works out that way

This is where I'm at as well.

Everyone has these high ideals and grand initiatives, but they really just become points for people to fight over.

More bureaucracy and structure does not solve problems created by bureaucracy and structure.

Really, I think only after six months will we be in a position to actually figure out what we do need and what we don't. Right now, we think we have all of these needs... but we really have no idea.

So, again, I support postponing this decision until Christmas or so.
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YYW
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7/17/2016 7:37:14 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 7:36:40 PM, Kreakin wrote:
I concur, let's discuss it in the new year.

If you want to abolish, then you should change your vote to reflect that.
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bsh1
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7/17/2016 8:11:19 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
If abolition wins, it will demonstrate that a sizable portion of the community wants an end to all non-moderation bureaucracy. The meaning of the vote should be honored to the extent possible. Don't try to "fill the void." Let's see where we are in 3 months.
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Blade-of-Truth
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7/17/2016 8:26:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
In the absence of a presidency, I firmly believe community leaders will naturally emerge over the next few weeks or months.

They will be those who start initiatives, promote beneficial community efforts, contribute to discussions or debates, and ones that others will look up to (because of their efforts). We are already seeing some emerge, and I think it'll be those community leaders who would act as the voice of the people if any major issues or policy change proposals arise.

Thus, I agree with the others who have said that we should give it a few months and see what happens. I think several community leaders will emerge, in that time, in their respective areas of expertise and effort.
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YYW
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7/17/2016 8:41:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 8:26:04 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
In the absence of a presidency, I firmly believe community leaders will naturally emerge over the next few weeks or months.

They will be those who start initiatives, promote beneficial community efforts, contribute to discussions or debates, and ones that others will look up to (because of their efforts). We are already seeing some emerge, and I think it'll be those community leaders who would act as the voice of the people if any major issues or policy change proposals arise.

Thus, I agree with the others who have said that we should give it a few months and see what happens. I think several community leaders will emerge, in that time, in their respective areas of expertise and effort.

Of all the other online communities I have been a part of, and there are several, DDO is the only one with a "president." DDO is also the only one with site politics drama that I have seen to the extent that we have here. No other online forum community, even one that is oriented towards discussing political issues, discusses site-politics issues like we have here.
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YYW
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7/17/2016 8:55:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 8:46:17 PM, Kreakin wrote:
We're unique : )

Uniquely drama-ridden, yes. Uniquely plagued by absurd debates over things that are utterly insignificant in the bigger picture, yes. Uniquely populated by members who will argue to the point of suffering a psychological meltdown in defense of a position that is objectively futile, yes.

That is the kind of "uniqueness" that makes this site less desirable to be, and, relative to others, more desirable.

Obviously I am more entrenched here than I am anywhere else. My record-breaking forum activity (I am the only member with more than 30,000 substantive posts, and also the only member with more than 20,000 substantive posts, where "substantive" excludes both mafia and misc forum spam like nearly everyone else who even approaches me has done) is proof enough of that.

But the world outside of DDO is not lost on me, whereas I think it is on many others whose lives have become inseparable with engagement on this site. This causes them to lose sight of the big picture, which is what this place could be rather than what it is.

What we need is new thinking, on a number of different issues. I am highly encouraged by the community's majority vote in opposition to maintaining a failed position that has done nothing other than serve as a flash-point for hostility. I am also highly encouraged by the movement on some of the other major issues that moderation has taken up as well, which we will pick up after the referendum. Regardless of the outcome, we are moving to a point where as a site we can acknowledge that we cannot maintain the status quo. On that point, I am hopeful.

However, I also know that there are many people here (and even many people who have had the best intentions in voting to maintain the presidency) that are constitutionally averse to change. Change scares them, and they don't want to see it because the unknown is something they cannot reconcile with. So, they stick to things as they are because they want to play it safe. Regretfully, I think that way of thinking will hinder progress, and it has so far. But hopefully, the majority will do what is in the site's best interest, which is abolish.
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Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
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7/17/2016 9:04:56 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 8:41:42 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/17/2016 8:26:04 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
In the absence of a presidency, I firmly believe community leaders will naturally emerge over the next few weeks or months.

They will be those who start initiatives, promote beneficial community efforts, contribute to discussions or debates, and ones that others will look up to (because of their efforts). We are already seeing some emerge, and I think it'll be those community leaders who would act as the voice of the people if any major issues or policy change proposals arise.

Thus, I agree with the others who have said that we should give it a few months and see what happens. I think several community leaders will emerge, in that time, in their respective areas of expertise and effort.

Of all the other online communities I have been a part of, and there are several, DDO is the only one with a "president."

Same

DDO is also the only one with site politics drama that I have seen to the extent that we have here.

Yeah, I agree - I've never seen such drama on other forums I've been a part of.

No other online forum community, even one that is oriented towards discussing political issues, discusses site-politics issues like we have here.

Yup, this is why I have not voted "keep". I think the abolishment of the office will provide us with a unique opportunity to rebuild from the ground-up, whereas keeping it around (at this point) would only serve to create more unnecessary drama.
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YYW
Posts: 36,426
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7/17/2016 9:09:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 9:04:56 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 7/17/2016 8:41:42 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/17/2016 8:26:04 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
In the absence of a presidency, I firmly believe community leaders will naturally emerge over the next few weeks or months.

They will be those who start initiatives, promote beneficial community efforts, contribute to discussions or debates, and ones that others will look up to (because of their efforts). We are already seeing some emerge, and I think it'll be those community leaders who would act as the voice of the people if any major issues or policy change proposals arise.

Thus, I agree with the others who have said that we should give it a few months and see what happens. I think several community leaders will emerge, in that time, in their respective areas of expertise and effort.

Of all the other online communities I have been a part of, and there are several, DDO is the only one with a "president."

Same

DDO is also the only one with site politics drama that I have seen to the extent that we have here.

Yeah, I agree - I've never seen such drama on other forums I've been a part of.

No other online forum community, even one that is oriented towards discussing political issues, discusses site-politics issues like we have here.

Yup, this is why I have not voted "keep". I think the abolishment of the office will provide us with a unique opportunity to rebuild from the ground-up, whereas keeping it around (at this point) would only serve to create more unnecessary drama.

I don't even think there needs to be any "rebuilding."
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ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,373
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7/17/2016 10:32:23 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I agree we need to cool off for a while. Let's see where we are in a few months. :)
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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,107
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7/17/2016 10:40:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
Baring nothing short of a miracle or ungodly unethical tactics, we can assume the presidency will be effectively abolished as of this Wednesday.

Since most people seem to agree we should wait awhile, I'm just going to pick at this line.

The results of the referendum isn't supposed to be some binding matter - what the referendum is supposed to do is indicate community opinion. If ungodly unethical tactics are used to make a side win, is that really community opinion? So Max would probably say that the Presidency is an obvious problem as it exists, since voters who cared enough to use their own opinion and vote on their own volition voted abolition. What happens from there is his choice. When the Presidency is abolished, we have a de facto Max dictatorship on all fronts until he decides to do something. All Presidency institutions are technically under his control unless he delegates them.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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7/17/2016 10:50:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 10:40:22 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
Baring nothing short of a miracle or ungodly unethical tactics, we can assume the presidency will be effectively abolished as of this Wednesday.

Since most people seem to agree we should wait awhile, I'm just going to pick at this line.

The results of the referendum isn't supposed to be some binding matter - what the referendum is supposed to do is indicate community opinion. If ungodly unethical tactics are used to make a side win, is that really community opinion? So Max would probably say that the Presidency is an obvious problem as it exists, since voters who cared enough to use their own opinion and vote on their own volition voted abolition. What happens from there is his choice. When the Presidency is abolished, we have a de facto Max dictatorship on all fronts until he decides to do something. All Presidency institutions are technically under his control unless he delegates them.
Max is certainly not a dictator! He is a moderator, who listens to the wishes of the community when we express them. I don't always agree with him, but he is usually reasonable. To think that he will suddenly change without a president, is unfounded.
1harderthanyouthink
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7/17/2016 10:53:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 10:50:37 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/17/2016 10:40:22 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
Max is certainly not a dictator! He is a moderator, who listens to the wishes of the community when we express them. I don't always agree with him, but he is usually reasonable. To think that he will suddenly change without a president, is unfounded.

He's a dictator without the Presidency in every respect. His word goes unchallenged (at least, not meaningfully) if he so wishes. Yet, dictator =/= malicious.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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7/17/2016 11:00:02 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 10:53:38 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/17/2016 10:50:37 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/17/2016 10:40:22 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
Max is certainly not a dictator! He is a moderator, who listens to the wishes of the community when we express them. I don't always agree with him, but he is usually reasonable. To think that he will suddenly change without a president, is unfounded.

He's a dictator without the Presidency in every respect. His word goes unchallenged (at least, not meaningfully) if he so wishes. Yet, dictator =/= malicious.

Technically he was "dictator" even with the presidency, since the presidency held no power over content. As a matter of fact, I think the Presidency was responsible for alienating some of us from fully expressing ourselves, if we weren't officially recognized by the president or his "in" group of supporters.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,019
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7/17/2016 11:27:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
Baring nothing short of a miracle or ungodly unethical tactics, we can assume the presidency will be effectively abolished as of this Wednesday. The reason I am hosting this discussion is for the community to engage in both discussion and discourse in an attempt to find what direction that we as a community need to go. Without a figurehead for the community, and without a bridge to moderation there is a *very small* void left that needs to be filled. There has been a great deal of discussion about what to do in order to fill that void. It is optimal to have a direct bridge to moderation that represents the community, but we don't need a president to do that. Here are a few ideas that have been tossed out in order to achieve that void.

(1) Conventions
(2) Councils
(3) Elected Representatives (Cabinet)
(4) Airmax Dictatorship

I'm bipartisan on most of these as I think they all seek to achieve the same thing, which is not give one person the ability to confront moderation about issues. The goal seems to have a common theme which is community input as a whole to direct moderation.

If I'm forced to an idea, I like the idea of Conventions and Councils with an open setting. Like once a month hold a thread that addresses all the sites issues and problems, and leave it open for everyone to offer feedback in and participate in. There are different variants of this as well, but as I said that seems to be the common theme.


(1) What are your thoughts?
(2) What would you like to see implemented ?
(3) In your opinion was is the most effective way to bridge the gap between the community and moderation?
(4) What site issues would you like to see fixed and prioritized?
(5) What are some projects that we could implement to help give CPR to the community?

Airmax dictatorship
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dsjpk5
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7/17/2016 11:28:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 7:00:59 PM, imabench wrote:
I vote we literally do nothing for at least 6 months and just see if sh*t works out that way

+1
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dsjpk5
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7/17/2016 11:29:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 7:03:59 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM, Mikal wrote:
Baring nothing short of a miracle or ungodly unethical tactics, we can assume the presidency will be effectively abolished as of this Wednesday. The reason I am hosting this discussion is for the community to engage in both discussion and discourse in an attempt to find what direction that we as a community need to go. Without a figurehead for the community, and without a bridge to moderation there is a *very small* void left that needs to be filled. There has been a great deal of discussion about what to do in order to fill that void. It is optimal to have a direct bridge to moderation that represents the community, but we don't need a president to do that. Here are a few ideas that have been tossed out in order to achieve that void.

(1) Conventions
(2) Councils
(3) Elected Representatives (Cabinet)
(4) Airmax Dictatorship

I'm bipartisan on most of these as I think they all seek to achieve the same thing, which is not give one person the ability to confront moderation about issues. The goal seems to have a common theme which is community input as a whole to direct moderation.

If I'm forced to an idea, I like the idea of Conventions and Councils with an open setting. Like once a month hold a thread that addresses all the sites issues and problems, and leave it open for everyone to offer feedback in and participate in. There are different variants of this as well, but as I said that seems to be the common theme.


(1) What are your thoughts?
(2) What would you like to see implemented ?
(3) In your opinion was is the most effective way to bridge the gap between the community and moderation?
(4) What site issues would you like to see fixed and prioritized?
(5) What are some projects that we could implement to help give CPR to the community?
I'd like absolutely NOTHING to be implemented. YYW's referendum post proved that the community can come together and instigate change when an issue truly matters to the community. If there is ever a serious dispute with moderation, a well known member can post a thread and request community support (or opposition) to the issue at hand. I'm sure less well known members could do so as well, but I don't think that those threads would get enough responders to confirm that it is an issue that the community is concerned about.

I think members should continue to run their own programs, and encourage members to participate in them.

+1
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dsjpk5
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7/17/2016 11:29:55 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 7:16:13 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/17/2016 7:00:59 PM, imabench wrote:
I vote we literally do nothing for at least 6 months and just see if sh*t works out that way

This is where I'm at as well.

Everyone has these high ideals and grand initiatives, but they really just become points for people to fight over.

More bureaucracy and structure does not solve problems created by bureaucracy and structure.

Really, I think only after six months will we be in a position to actually figure out what we do need and what we don't. Right now, we think we have all of these needs... but we really have no idea.

So, again, I support postponing this decision until Christmas or so.

+1
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Hayd
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7/17/2016 11:57:55 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 6:56:31 PM, Mikal wrote:

Seeing that the question is how we should replace the bridge of the community to the moderators, I say we use an "Airmax dicatorship". Airmax already reads almost every post of every thread on the site, or at least the important one's; relevent to the community needs. He doesn't need someone to tell him what he already knows. He already has a more than in-depth understanding of the community's needs (from reading threads), and personally knowing most of the established members of the community. Thus I say we allow a dictatorship.

I say the top priority we should focus on as a community is reaching out to new users. The more new users we make more likely to stay, the more members we have. The more members we have the more conversation, activity, and awesome stuff happens. Thus, we should focus on new users a lot. Which is why your program, is awesome. Besides that we also need to focus on voting. And having fan fics revived would be sweet

A voter union of sorts is the best possible solution for voting. Although there need to be some reforms to make it more effective. Of which we can talk about it more at depth with the community later.

I don't know about fan fics...just asking some established and respected members to start writing fan fics would probably work...
YYW
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7/18/2016 12:09:54 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
One way to solve the voter union problem would be to have judges who would bloc-vote.

If the debate has been VB'd, then get one member from a trusted community to vote, and then have five or so other members or so cast a vote based on the same RFD.

Maybe that could only be done with the "best" voters, though. People like me. (sorry, don't mean to be arrogant... it's just that I am pretty much the best voter on this site, now that Bladerunner isn't around, who I would say was on my level.)
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MagicAintReal
Posts: 592
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7/18/2016 2:11:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
(1) Conventions

Sure

(2) Councils

Sure

(3) Elected Representatives (Cabinet)

Isn't this just as bad as an elected president, in the abolition view?

(4) Airmax Dictatorship

The power to delete any member's posted material is dictatorial, inherently, but I like to think of airmax as a representative dictator...he asks both debaters if deletion/resetting is ok, before he deletes, and if he checks members' IP addresses, it's because the person is abusing the site, and likely voting themselves wins or harassing opponents...

If I'm forced to an idea, I like the idea of Conventions and Councils with an open setting. Like once a month hold a thread that addresses all the sites issues and problems, and leave it open for everyone to offer feedback in and participate in. There are different variants of this as well, but as I said that seems to be the common theme.

That's a great idea.

(1) What are your thoughts?

As long as the conventions and councils are directly read by those who can literally manipulate the site and institute formatting/interface/technical changes needed.

(2) What would you like to see implemented ?

Straight up, for producing votes with exceptional RFDs, in which a council would be responsible determining what "exceptional" is, one should receive a small increase in their ELO score.
That way those who find the voting standards too strict, won't need to have their votes removed, they just won't see a rise in their ELO, and those who write great RFDs will constantly see reward.

(3) In your opinion was is the most effective way to bridge the gap between the community and moderation?

Have a forum category in the Forums tab called: Moderation.
I know there's already a debate.org category, but in the Moderation forum, ALL topics/posts are sent directly to all moderators and, in this forum, debaters from a debate can hash out a vote removal dispute with a moderator directly and for all to see rather than blowing up the comments section of debates...more characters in the forums too, no?
Otherwise PMs are fine.

(4) What site issues would you like to see fixed and prioritized?

The front page is a joke, and the front page *especially* can be used as a positive reward system for exceptional debaters/voters.
Have a debate of the week, with debates of weeks prior immortalized with the two debaters' avatars and links to their profiles.
Have the top voters listed on the front page. I feel like members will try to make the front page, and the only way to do that would be to make great RFDs.

(5) What are some projects that we could implement to help give CPR to the community?

I think if you entice members with rewards of a spot on the front page with a #1 ranking in some fashion or with ELO increase, people will likely participate more.
lannan13
Posts: 23,111
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7/18/2016 2:51:59 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
I really find it sad and pratically depressing that this sh*t fest has chased so many members away by some people creating such a toxicity that exists due to this sh*tshow. It makes me seriously wonder if this site is going to be worth my time anymore.
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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,107
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7/18/2016 3:53:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 12:09:54 AM, YYW wrote:
One way to solve the voter union problem would be to have judges who would bloc-vote.

If the debate has been VB'd, then get one member from a trusted community to vote, and then have five or so other members or so cast a vote based on the same RFD.

Maybe that could only be done with the "best" voters, though. People like me. (sorry, don't mean to be arrogant... it's just that I am pretty much the best voter on this site, now that Bladerunner isn't around, who I would say was on my level.)

That seems like a bad idea. What if a perfectly reasonable RFD is posted in favor of the other side? Then, it would be weighed differently in a way that is unjust towards voters and the debaters.
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