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Debate Format Thread- Official

m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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12/27/2010 11:03:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It seems like if you label it official, it really does become official.

Anyways, I think we all can agree that the format of debates right now can take on some, if not many, renovations. Here are a few I thought of.

1) Character limit

I feel that it should be pushed a little further, because far too often, 8,000 is definitely not enough. 10k, 15k, and 20k would make great additions in my opinion, just as options.

2) Text format

Underlining, italicization, and bolding should be options. If we can format posts in forums, why not in debates? It would make organization a lot easier, as well as facilitate emphasis, instead of simply putting STARS around or *capitalizing* important words.

3) Bullet points and special characters (such as the infinity symbol, or Greek letters)

This is self-explanatory. We should have them enabled.

_____________________________________________________________________

Feel free to add on; I just want to get everyone's opinion, see if they agree; also make some more pushes for improvements to the newly-well managed site.
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/27/2010 11:12:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It would be nice to have specific formats implemented.

-Adding the negative block for people who want to do policy debate (as well as making the rebuttals appropriately shorter)

-Making LD an option for people (meaning that 'affirmative' has the first and last speech as well as having variating character limits)

-I also think that the site should implement a random topic generator. That would just be fun.

-I do agree that the character limits need to be increased. However, the 8,000 character limit should be the default one when you go to the 'start a debate'... otherwise people would not know what they are getting into.
wamba
Posts: 688
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12/27/2010 11:13:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/27/2010 11:03:23 PM, m93samman wrote:
It seems like if you label it official, it really does become official.

Anyways, I think we all can agree that the format of debates right now can take on some, if not many, renovations. Here are a few I thought of.

1) Character limit

I feel that it should be pushed a little further, because far too often, 8,000 is definitely not enough. 10k, 15k, and 20k would make great additions in my opinion, just as options.

No - the character limit is the only thing keeping charleslb from writing a book.

Furthermore brevity and conciseness in an argument is something to be valued.

2) Text format

Underlining, italicization, and bolding should be options. If we can format posts in forums, why not in debates? It would make organization a lot easier, as well as facilitate emphasis, instead of simply putting STARS around or *capitalizing* important words.

Yes

3) Bullet points and special characters (such as the infinity symbol, or Greek letters)

Yes

4) Have a separate place/system for internal citations that doesn't detract from character count.
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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12/27/2010 11:16:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
1) Character limit

I feel that it should be pushed a little further, because far too often, 8,000 is definitely not enough. 10k, 15k, and 20k would make great additions in my opinion, just as options.

No - the character limit is the only thing keeping charleslb from writing a book.
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/27/2010 11:22:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No - the character limit is the only thing keeping charleslb from writing a book.

lol......... but policy debates need more characters. a lot of them feel odd only being allowed 8,000 characters for their massive piles of evidence. I am actually in the process of turning a 30,000 character case (of which only about 15,000 of it actually gets read in the debate) down to 8,000 characters. It's tough...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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12/27/2010 11:23:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/27/2010 11:03:23 PM, m93samman wrote:
It seems like if you label it official, it really does become official.

Anyways, I think we all can agree that the format of debates right now can take on some, if not many, renovations. Here are a few I thought of.

1) Character limit

I feel that it should be pushed a little further, because far too often, 8,000 is definitely not enough. 10k, 15k, and 20k would make great additions in my opinion, just as options.

2) Text format

Underlining, italicization, and bolding should be options. If we can format posts in forums, why not in debates? It would make organization a lot easier, as well as facilitate emphasis, instead of simply putting STARS around or *capitalizing* important words.

3) Bullet points and special characters (such as the infinity symbol, or Greek letters)

This is self-explanatory. We should have them enabled.

_____________________________________________________________________

Feel free to add on; I just want to get everyone's opinion, see if they agree; also make some more pushes for improvements to the newly-well managed site.

I concur with all these.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
wamba
Posts: 688
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12/27/2010 11:29:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/27/2010 11:22:56 PM, Johnicle wrote:
No - the character limit is the only thing keeping charleslb from writing a book.

lol......... but policy debates need more characters. a lot of them feel odd only being allowed 8,000 characters for their massive piles of evidence. I am actually in the process of turning a 30,000 character case (of which only about 15,000 of it actually gets read in the debate) down to 8,000 characters. It's tough...

It's easily do-able especially with my number four that I bolded.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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12/28/2010 12:05:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Don't label it official. That devalues the 'official' label when it is applied to official threads.

Let the new owners decide what website issues/changes they will address as they address them. This seems kind of rude, like we don't appreciate all of the work they have done for us so far.
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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12/28/2010 12:14:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 12:05:01 AM, JBlake wrote:
Don't label it official. That devalues the 'official' label when it is applied to official threads.

Let the new owners decide what website issues/changes they will address as they address them. This seems kind of rude, like we don't appreciate all of the work they have done for us so far.

/: mah bad. I was inconsiderate in that sense of it... I guess it should say "Discussion Thread" instead
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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12/28/2010 12:56:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Honestly I would not agree with the increased character limit because I feel like having to read books of text would deter people from reading the whole debate. That either discourages people from voting, encourages people to skim (in which case readers may miss important arguments), or encourage people to just vote for whoever they think probably won given the matchup.

I agree that an LD format and random topic generator would be great.
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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12/28/2010 1:25:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't think that the character limit should be increased.

I am one of the worst offenders here about taking up all 8000 characters, no matter what topic; as such, I don't have a whole lot of room to complain. But when I am reading a debate by someone who doesn't write very well, seeing a wall 8000 characters long is sometimes enough to make me just hit the back button.

There have been times I've wished I had another 5000 characters, but I probably don't need them. No one would read my debates if I had that much room to ramble in. Having the limit forces people like myself to be concise.

That said, here are the things I think should be added:

1. Bulleting/formatting
Give us a way to separate out points. Add a little section explaining for the n00bs how important good form is, and how to achieve it. I'd write an essay on that in a heartbeat, if it would help.

2. Separate section for citations.
Someone up there^ mentioned this already, and it's a great idea. Easily added superscript numerals for citations would be awesome, too.

3. RFD section alongside the votes, so that the (admittedly too rare) reasons for decision don't get lost in the comments.

4. Random topic generator would be awesome, and easy to implement. It's not very important, though.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/28/2010 1:30:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I still think that we should be able to "like" and "dislike" individual posts in the forum.

And, I think that it should contribute to some sort of reputation.

I mean, why not, right? :P

Besides, it may reduce the overwhelming prevalence of flame posts.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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12/28/2010 1:32:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/27/2010 11:13:28 PM, wamba wrote:
At 12/27/2010 11:03:23 PM, m93samman wrote:
It seems like if you label it official, it really does become official.

Anyways, I think we all can agree that the format of debates right now can take on some, if not many, renovations. Here are a few I thought of.

1) Character limit

I feel that it should be pushed a little further, because far too often, 8,000 is definitely not enough. 10k, 15k, and 20k would make great additions in my opinion, just as options.

No - the character limit is the only thing keeping charleslb from writing a book.


Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win, Win.
kfc
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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12/28/2010 1:48:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 1:30:47 PM, Ren wrote:
I still think that we should be able to "like" and "dislike" individual posts in the forum.

And, I think that it should contribute to some sort of reputation.

I mean, why not, right? :P

Besides, it may reduce the overwhelming prevalence of flame posts.
Some of those flame post will be the most liked posts. This site is predominantly adolescents, after all; they thrive on cruelty.

I do think there should be a reputation system here; I'm just not sure how it should be done. Perhaps a member rating system, or a poll system; though either one could easily be abused. Idk.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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12/28/2010 2:08:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 12:56:11 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Honestly I would not agree with the increased character limit because I feel like having to read books of text would deter people from reading the whole debate. That either discourages people from voting, encourages people to skim (in which case readers may miss important arguments), or encourage people to just vote for whoever they think probably won given the matchup.

I agree that an LD format and random topic generator would be great.

I agree. Some people here need to learn to say a lot in a little bit of space. haha
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/28/2010 2:10:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 1:48:20 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 12/28/2010 1:30:47 PM, Ren wrote:
I still think that we should be able to "like" and "dislike" individual posts in the forum.

And, I think that it should contribute to some sort of reputation.

I mean, why not, right? :P

Besides, it may reduce the overwhelming prevalence of flame posts.
Some of those flame post will be the most liked posts. This site is predominantly adolescents, after all; they thrive on cruelty.

I do think there should be a reputation system here; I'm just not sure how it should be done. Perhaps a member rating system, or a poll system; though either one could easily be abused. Idk.

Well, a reputation system has everything to do with majority perspective.

So, it should work whether or not, yes?

But, of course, your points are valid.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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12/28/2010 2:31:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't think the character limit should be too long. 8000 characters is already about 2.5 pages, single-spaced, on Microsoft Word. Nobody wants to read an essay. And I think it challenges everyone to be more concise, which is the mark of a good speaker.

I agree though, that we should be able to format in the debate. It's such a pain not being able to italicize or bold, etc.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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12/28/2010 2:33:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 2:31:09 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I don't think the character limit should be too long. 8000 characters is already about 2.5 pages, single-spaced, on Microsoft Word. Nobody wants to read an essay. And I think it challenges everyone to be more concise, which is the mark of a good speaker.

I agree though, that we should be able to format in the debate. It's such a pain not being able to italicize or bold, etc.

Bah. I should really read threads before I regurgitate what others have already said -__-
SportsGuru
Posts: 1,648
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12/28/2010 3:58:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/27/2010 11:12:42 PM, Johnicle wrote:
It would be nice to have specific formats implemented.

-Adding the negative block for people who want to do policy debate (as well as making the rebuttals appropriately shorter)

-Making LD an option for people (meaning that 'affirmative' has the first and last speech as well as having variating character limits)

-I also think that the site should implement a random topic generator. That would just be fun.

-I do agree that the character limits need to be increased. However, the 8,000 character limit should be the default one when you go to the 'start a debate'... otherwise people would not know what they are getting into.

Basically everything here; perhaps even have a drop-down box when one creates a debate where the user as the options of normal (or whatever name you give it), Lincoln-Douglas, and Policy. Not sure how cross examinations would work. Better yet, if along with being able to format text in debates, embedded links were enabled so that the argument could just be the tag and relevant data while the link is in the argument itself, saving characters (forgive me if this is already possible)

Not necessarily related but an idea for a unique format: perhaps as a challenge, instead of getting 8,000 per round for a 4 round debate, you get 32,000 total to use. So, if you you use only 4,000 in your opening round, you have an extra 4,000 to use elsewhere
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/30/2010 1:21:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I like the aforementioned "total character count" idea. It'd lend itself to a format of debate heavily involved in strategy (like, deciding when long posts are advantageous vs short posts).

I also think, in inclusion to the random topic generator, that users can submit topics for others to debate.

And, I'm not sure if this has ever been brought up, could we have partner debates? Like in policy and public forum?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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12/30/2010 2:44:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 1:21:25 AM, M.Torres wrote:
I like the aforementioned "total character count" idea. It'd lend itself to a format of debate heavily involved in strategy (like, deciding when long posts are advantageous vs short posts).

I also think, in inclusion to the random topic generator, that users can submit topics for others to debate.

And, I'm not sure if this has ever been brought up, could we have partner debates? Like in policy and public forum?

The partner debates would be awesome.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/30/2010 8:11:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
One thing I'd really like to see, in addition to the things mentioned above (except the extension of the character limit) is a section before Round 1 in which the Instigator may define terms used in the resolution. As the Instigator writes the resolution, it is also the Instigator's right to define it.

Although, few things are more annoying than a contention that takes twice as long to refute as it takes to assert. It takes maybe 50 characters to cite a Supreme Court ruling, yet hundreds to explain why a Supreme Court justice is hardly as reliable as a hobo in court rulings.
wamba
Posts: 688
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12/30/2010 9:52:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 8:11:18 PM, mongeese wrote:
One thing I'd really like to see, in addition to the things mentioned above (except the extension of the character limit) is a section before Round 1 in which the Instigator may define terms used in the resolution. As the Instigator writes the resolution, it is also the Instigator's right to define it.

Great suggestion
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/31/2010 12:03:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Perhaps it could even be set up so that by hovering the mouse over a word in the resolution, a definition pre-written by the Instigator appears in the mouseover text, to save space. Naturally, one would not be required to define all words, or even any words. Defining phrases would be nice as well.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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12/31/2010 2:31:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it was Mark Twain who said, "I don't have time to write you a short letter, so here is a long one." I think the 8000 character limit is a good one. If a topic is too large to be covered with 8K rounds, then it is better to narrow the topic. The site benefits from having people read and comment on the debates, and having massive blocks of text would deter that. I have done a couple of debates of five rounds of 8K characters, nobody read them, and if I didn't participate I wouldn't have bothered either.

I think there should be an exception for the reference links. The characters in the links shouldn't count on the 8K total. There is no point having to waste time with tinyurl, and use of references is important in some debates.

Basic formatting would be a really helpful addition. It's more important for debates than comments.
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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12/31/2010 3:16:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/31/2010 2:31:49 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I think it was Mark Twain who said, "I don't have time to write you a short letter, so here is a long one." I think the 8000 character limit is a good one. If a topic is too large to be covered with 8K rounds, then it is better to narrow the topic. The site benefits from having people read and comment on the debates, and having massive blocks of text would deter that. I have done a couple of debates of five rounds of 8K characters, nobody read them, and if I didn't participate I wouldn't have bothered either.

I think there should be an exception for the reference links. The characters in the links shouldn't count on the 8K total. There is no point having to waste time with tinyurl, and use of references is important in some debates.

Basic formatting would be a really helpful addition. It's more important for debates than comments.

Win
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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1/1/2011 3:06:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/31/2010 5:08:18 PM, darkkermit wrote:
If Group debates are created, they should have their character limit extended.

I don't think that would be necessary. It would probably be 4 rounds... each person takes one of those.