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Is this really a "debate" site?

Upiter
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8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
In a conventional debate you have sides going continuously back and forth so you can challenge people on evidence and atomic facts. Here, you simply lay down an argument and so does another person. There aren't constant back and forths that really allow you to challenge different things a person says. Because of this I don't really consider this format a "debate" format. I consider it more of a "state your opinion and vote" format. This is quite sad as the internet does not need more of this type of stuff in my opinion.
bsh1
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8/29/2016 1:44:57 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM, Upiter wrote:
In a conventional debate you have sides going continuously back and forth so you can challenge people on evidence and atomic facts. Here, you simply lay down an argument and so does another person. There aren't constant back and forths that really allow you to challenge different things a person says. Because of this I don't really consider this format a "debate" format. I consider it more of a "state your opinion and vote" format. This is quite sad as the internet does not need more of this type of stuff in my opinion.

What section of the site are you talking about? The Debates, Forums, Opinions, or Polls?
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Upiter
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8/29/2016 1:53:54 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 1:44:57 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM, Upiter wrote:
In a conventional debate you have sides going continuously back and forth so you can challenge people on evidence and atomic facts. Here, you simply lay down an argument and so does another person. There aren't constant back and forths that really allow you to challenge different things a person says. Because of this I don't really consider this format a "debate" format. I consider it more of a "state your opinion and vote" format. This is quite sad as the internet does not need more of this type of stuff in my opinion.

What section of the site are you talking about? The Debates, Forums, Opinions, or Polls?

Thank you for your reply. I am talking about in general on the content of the site and similar structured sites. I see the official "debates" are structured in "rounds" where people lay out their main arguments and then make counter-arguments with people voting. I again am simply saying that these are't very atomic level exchanges and not what would conventionally be considered debate where people interact continuously. It's difficult to impossible to continuously challenge a person in between claims or statements and more importantly focus on facts that could involve an entire debate themselves.
bsh1
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8/29/2016 2:02:43 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 1:53:54 AM, Upiter wrote:
At 8/29/2016 1:44:57 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM, Upiter wrote:
In a conventional debate you have sides going continuously back and forth so you can challenge people on evidence and atomic facts. Here, you simply lay down an argument and so does another person. There aren't constant back and forths that really allow you to challenge different things a person says. Because of this I don't really consider this format a "debate" format. I consider it more of a "state your opinion and vote" format. This is quite sad as the internet does not need more of this type of stuff in my opinion.

What section of the site are you talking about? The Debates, Forums, Opinions, or Polls?

Thank you for your reply. I am talking about in general on the content of the site and similar structured sites. I see the official "debates" are structured in "rounds" where people lay out their main arguments and then make counter-arguments with people voting. I again am simply saying that these are't very atomic level exchanges and not what would conventionally be considered debate where people interact continuously.

I would disagree that debate is conventionally considered a continuous interaction. In real life debate competitions, such as those engaged in by thousands of high schoolers across the country, speeches are timed, and there are a set number of speeches. If you look even to the US presidential debates, you can see that each candidate's replies are time-limited, and that the debate ends after 1-2 hours. Debates, in this sense, have never been continuous, but have always been structured and fixed entities.

But, there are of course several meanings of "debate." Debate could mean an adversarial competition between two or more contestants who take opposing sides of a single topic. This is the idea of debate used in the examples I gave above, and in the debates section of this site.

There is also an idea of debate as a discourse about a controversial issue. For instance, if I were talking about "America's debate on drug legalization," clearly I am not referring to a competition, as I was in the first definition. Rather, I am referring to an on-going exchange of ideas over an issue where positions are far less rigid and where argumentation is more fluid than in the former case. However, even this kinds of debates are not continuous. I seriously doubt that one could still say that America is debating about the rightness of slavery. There may be some fringe elements out there, but for all intents and purposes, the debate is over. A decision has been reached.

This more fluid, conversational, discursive kind of debate is what you'll find in the forums, because there is no set format, nor any time constraints externally placed on the participants. You can keep debating for as long as you'd like, and for as long as others would engage with you. This is no different from discursive debate in real life.
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Upiter
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8/29/2016 2:10:11 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:02:43 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 1:53:54 AM, Upiter wrote:
At 8/29/2016 1:44:57 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM, Upiter wrote:
In a conventional debate you have sides going continuously back and forth so you can challenge people on evidence and atomic facts. Here, you simply lay down an argument and so does another person. There aren't constant back and forths that really allow you to challenge different things a person says. Because of this I don't really consider this format a "debate" format. I consider it more of a "state your opinion and vote" format. This is quite sad as the internet does not need more of this type of stuff in my opinion.

What section of the site are you talking about? The Debates, Forums, Opinions, or Polls?

Thank you for your reply. I am talking about in general on the content of the site and similar structured sites. I see the official "debates" are structured in "rounds" where people lay out their main arguments and then make counter-arguments with people voting. I again am simply saying that these are't very atomic level exchanges and not what would conventionally be considered debate where people interact continuously.

I would disagree that debate is conventionally considered a continuous interaction. In real life debate competitions, such as those engaged in by thousands of high schoolers across the country, speeches are timed, and there are a set number of speeches. If you look even to the US presidential debates, you can see that each candidate's replies are time-limited, and that the debate ends after 1-2 hours. Debates, in this sense, have never been continuous, but have always been structured and fixed entities.

But, there are of course several meanings of "debate." Debate could mean an adversarial competition between two or more contestants who take opposing sides of a single topic. This is the idea of debate used in the examples I gave above, and in the debates section of this site.

There is also an idea of debate as a discourse about a controversial issue. For instance, if I were talking about "America's debate on drug legalization," clearly I am not referring to a competition, as I was in the first definition. Rather, I am referring to an on-going exchange of ideas over an issue where positions are far less rigid and where argumentation is more fluid than in the former case. However, even this kinds of debates are not continuous. I seriously doubt that one could still say that America is debating about the rightness of slavery. There may be some fringe elements out there, but for all intents and purposes, the debate is over. A decision has been reached.

This more fluid, conversational, discursive kind of debate is what you'll find in the forums, because there is no set format, nor any time constraints externally placed on the participants. You can keep debating for as long as you'd like, and for as long as others would engage with you. This is no different from discursive debate in real life.

Ok, fair enough. However, I would like to add that even in highly structured debates, such as well presidential or parliamentary debates, there are still continuous breaks from form with people often going into digressions about claims just made. These digressions from form are often short but are still useful. There is nothing wrong with these breaks, within reason, as they come naturally when attempting to either clarify certain things or just simply even show emotion.
Vaarka
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8/29/2016 2:12:25 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM, Upiter wrote:
In a conventional debate you have sides going continuously back and forth so you can challenge people on evidence and atomic facts. Here, you simply lay down an argument and so does another person. There aren't constant back and forths that really allow you to challenge different things a person says. Because of this I don't really consider this format a "debate" format. I consider it more of a "state your opinion and vote" format. This is quite sad as the internet does not need more of this type of stuff in my opinion.

pfft, no. It's become more of a social site than a site where you debate intellectual topics
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bsh1
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8/29/2016 2:14:53 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:10:11 AM, Upiter wrote:
Ok, fair enough. However, I would like to add that even in highly structured debates, such as well presidential or parliamentary debates, there are still continuous breaks from form with people often going into digressions about claims just made.

I am sure you can find room for digression even within the structural format of the debates section of the site. Spare character space, for instance, could be used for that end.

Keep in mind that in Presidential debates, candidates often pay for their digressions with less time later on, to ensure a roughly equal distribution of time between the two participants. Again, this is not much different from how this site operates.

It could be argued, that some debates are themselves deviations from form, and are little more than regressions. You need only to look at some of the arguments made by Zaradi or Lexus in their rounds on this site to see that.
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Upiter
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8/29/2016 2:15:11 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
I would also like to add that in "Forums" section, although the format is more fluid, you cannot really "debate" normally since I do not believe you will be doing back-and-forths with only one person.
bsh1
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8/29/2016 2:18:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:12:25 AM, Vaarka wrote:
pfft, no. It's become more of a social site than a site where you debate intellectual topics

I beg to differ. The site does have its social aspects, but I could refer you to debates in the DDOlympics or any of my recent debates as evidence of pursuit of intellectual topics. In the forums to there is room for intellectual discussion. Just see some of Skep's posts, for example, or Diqi's.

Sure, there's a vibrant social aspect of the site that has grown recently. But that doesn't mean that it is not a site where you debate intellectual topics.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

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bsh1
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8/29/2016 2:19:25 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:15:11 AM, Upiter wrote:
I would also like to add that in "Forums" section, although the format is more fluid, you cannot really "debate" normally since I do not believe you will be doing back-and-forths with only one person.

You don't have back-and-forths with only one person in many everyday conversations. That doesn't mean it's not debate and it doesn't mean it's not normal.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Vaarka
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8/29/2016 2:20:37 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:18:28 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:12:25 AM, Vaarka wrote:
pfft, no. It's become more of a social site than a site where you debate intellectual topics

I beg to differ. The site does have its social aspects, but I could refer you to debates in the DDOlympics or any of my recent debates as evidence of pursuit of intellectual topics. In the forums to there is room for intellectual discussion. Just see some of Skep's posts, for example, or Diqi's.

Sure, there's a vibrant social aspect of the site that has grown recently. But that doesn't mean that it is not a site where you debate intellectual topics.

It was more of a joke. I'm aware that both exist...it just seems that [in the forums] there isn't as much intellectual discussion as before, so I was kinda hitting on that.

Also, I think you'll like my part in the DDOlympics ;3
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
Upiter
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8/29/2016 2:20:55 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:14:53 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:10:11 AM, Upiter wrote:
Ok, fair enough. However, I would like to add that even in highly structured debates, such as well presidential or parliamentary debates, there are still continuous breaks from form with people often going into digressions about claims just made.

I am sure you can find room for digression even within the structural format of the debates section of the site. Spare character space, for instance, could be used for that end.

Keep in mind that in Presidential debates, candidates often pay for their digressions with less time later on, to ensure a roughly equal distribution of time between the two participants. Again, this is not much different from how this site operates.

It could be argued, that some debates are themselves deviations from form, and are little more than regressions. You need only to look at some of the arguments made by Zaradi or Lexus in their rounds on this site to see that.

I understand. I guess what I am really trying to say is that there isn't this back-and-forth continuous dynamic that allows people in the conversation to zero in on specific facts or ideas, and get to the matter of the argument. One side saying a sentence or two and then the other side doing the same indefinitely isn't a bad format. The round-based format on this site is more appropriate for presentational purposes, which is what you see in highly structured debates in real life.
bsh1
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8/29/2016 2:24:08 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:20:37 AM, Vaarka wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:18:28 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:12:25 AM, Vaarka wrote:
pfft, no. It's become more of a social site than a site where you debate intellectual topics

I beg to differ. The site does have its social aspects, but I could refer you to debates in the DDOlympics or any of my recent debates as evidence of pursuit of intellectual topics. In the forums to there is room for intellectual discussion. Just see some of Skep's posts, for example, or Diqi's.

Sure, there's a vibrant social aspect of the site that has grown recently. But that doesn't mean that it is not a site where you debate intellectual topics.

It was more of a joke.

I know.

I'm aware that both exist...it just seems that [in the forums] there isn't as much intellectual discussion as before, so I was kinda hitting on that.

Actually, I think that intellectual discussion has decreased only marginally. It just seems like it's really declined because social discussion has ballooned, making intellectual discussion seem comparatively less.

Also, I think you'll like my part in the DDOlympics ;3

Cool.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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8/29/2016 2:25:11 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:20:55 AM, Upiter wrote:
I understand. I guess what I am really trying to say is that there isn't this back-and-forth continuous dynamic that allows people in the conversation to zero in on specific facts or ideas, and get to the matter of the argument.

I think you can still do that on the forums.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Vaarka
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8/29/2016 2:26:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:24:08 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:20:37 AM, Vaarka wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:18:28 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:12:25 AM, Vaarka wrote:
pfft, no. It's become more of a social site than a site where you debate intellectual topics

I beg to differ. The site does have its social aspects, but I could refer you to debates in the DDOlympics or any of my recent debates as evidence of pursuit of intellectual topics. In the forums to there is room for intellectual discussion. Just see some of Skep's posts, for example, or Diqi's.

Sure, there's a vibrant social aspect of the site that has grown recently. But that doesn't mean that it is not a site where you debate intellectual topics.

It was more of a joke.

I know.

I'm aware that both exist...it just seems that [in the forums] there isn't as much intellectual discussion as before, so I was kinda hitting on that.

Actually, I think that intellectual discussion has decreased only marginally. It just seems like it's really declined because social discussion has ballooned, making intellectual discussion seem comparatively less.

So...basically the forums is like a game of mafia, where the previous games had almost only good players, and now more fluff posters are beginning to slide themselves into the game.

Also, I think you'll like my part in the DDOlympics ;3

Cool.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
Upiter
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8/29/2016 2:26:56 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:19:25 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:15:11 AM, Upiter wrote:
I would also like to add that in "Forums" section, although the format is more fluid, you cannot really "debate" normally since I do not believe you will be doing back-and-forths with only one person.

You don't have back-and-forths with only one person in many everyday conversations. That doesn't mean it's not debate and it doesn't mean it's not normal.

I suppose so, although I can imagine situations where it becomes unruly.
bsh1
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8/29/2016 2:30:53 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:26:28 AM, Vaarka wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:24:08 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Actually, I think that intellectual discussion has decreased only marginally. It just seems like it's really declined because social discussion has ballooned, making intellectual discussion seem comparatively less.

So...basically the forums is like a game of mafia, where the previous games had almost only good players, and now more fluff posters are beginning to slide themselves into the game.

Kinda. Yeah.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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: http://www.debate.org...

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bsh1
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8/29/2016 2:32:10 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:26:56 AM, Upiter wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:19:25 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:15:11 AM, Upiter wrote:
I would also like to add that in "Forums" section, although the format is more fluid, you cannot really "debate" normally since I do not believe you will be doing back-and-forths with only one person.

You don't have back-and-forths with only one person in many everyday conversations. That doesn't mean it's not debate and it doesn't mean it's not normal.

I suppose so, although I can imagine situations where it becomes unruly.

True, but isn't that true wherever disagreement arises?

We can, of course, agree to disagree, but I think that this site does allow you to have the kinds of debates you seem to be interested in. I would urge you to try it out, and I hope you like it. Welcome.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Upiter
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8/29/2016 2:35:12 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 2:32:10 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:26:56 AM, Upiter wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:19:25 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 2:15:11 AM, Upiter wrote:
I would also like to add that in "Forums" section, although the format is more fluid, you cannot really "debate" normally since I do not believe you will be doing back-and-forths with only one person.

You don't have back-and-forths with only one person in many everyday conversations. That doesn't mean it's not debate and it doesn't mean it's not normal.

I suppose so, although I can imagine situations where it becomes unruly.

True, but isn't that true wherever disagreement arises?

We can, of course, agree to disagree, but I think that this site does allow you to have the kinds of debates you seem to be interested in. I would urge you to try it out, and I hope you like it. Welcome.

Yes you are for the most part right. Thank you for your assistance.
Omniscient_Debater
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8/29/2016 3:49:52 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM, Upiter wrote:
In a conventional debate you have sides going continuously back and forth so you can challenge people on evidence and atomic facts. Here, you simply lay down an argument and so does another person. There aren't constant back and forths that really allow you to challenge different things a person says. Because of this I don't really consider this format a "debate" format. I consider it more of a "state your opinion and vote" format. This is quite sad as the internet does not need more of this type of stuff in my opinion.

WHAT? This isnf s bait sire.
ColeTrain
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8/29/2016 4:09:05 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM, Upiter wrote:

What topics are you particularly interested in discussing? I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be delighted to argue back and forth with you in the forums. Other people might respond, too, but that just adds more to the fun. :) I, for one, enjoy the forums sometimes more than the debate section simply because it's much easier to talk about exactly what you want to talk about. Debate resolutions are often broad, and require a breadth of areas to be discussed. Forum discussions can be more specific to certain areas and can be continued far beyond the confines of a debate round.

If there's a topic you'd specifically like to discuss, create a forum thread for it, and once you accept my friend request, you can PM it to me. :)
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ethang5
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8/29/2016 3:56:21 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 1:43:31 AM, Upiter wrote:
In a conventional debate you have sides going continuously back and forth so you can challenge people on evidence and atomic facts. Here, you simply lay down an argument and so does another person. There aren't constant back and forths that really allow you to challenge different things a person says. Because of this I don't really consider this format a "debate" format. I consider it more of a "state your opinion and vote" format. This is quite sad as the internet does not need more of this type of stuff in my opinion.

You are quite right. Mostly people simply state their view and disregard the points laid out in the OP. This is to be expected as most people are not intellectual, but it is discouraging how often it happens on DDO.

I would like debates where individual points are settled. For example, one poster posts a link which is supposed to support the argument that Christianity was imposed by the sword in South America. His opponent shows that the link actually disagrees with his argument and contradicts him. Instead of conceding that tiny specific point, the debater will simply post another point of his he feels is supportive of his overall argument, never conceding that his link contradicted his argument or that the point it was supposed to support has been left unsupported.

And will often later reference this link in the same thread as one supporting his point!

So you're right. There are very, very few debates here. That is because there are very, very few debaters.
sadolite
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8/30/2016 12:48:53 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
People do debate, but good luck trying to vote on a debate and have it count. The vast majority of debates are lucky to even get two people with votes that are not summarily removed.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

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