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Tanstagi

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/19/2011 6:00:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Tanstagi, an acronym standing for There Ain't No Such Thing As Government Interference, is the motto of the Invisible Hand Society, an originally fictional organization invented in the Schrödinger's Cat Trilogy. The acronym was deliberately intended as a reference to Robert A. Heinlein's TANSTAAFL principle.
The Tanstagi principle is meant to imply that the invisible hand of the free market applies to government as well. In other words, contrary to traditional ideas of laissez-faire capitalism, government interference in the free market is impossible, since governments are inextricably a part of the market as a whole. Thus, true laissez-faire conditions are impossible, since the government will always affect the market.. An example of this is the defense industry: since governments are the single biggest customer of this industry, it logically follows that this sector of the free market is inextricably tied up with government interference. Alternately, it can be interpreted as an inability to see 'government' as a separate institution---it is a word used to describe the actions of a large number of individuals subject to the same (at least qualitatively) pressures as everyone else. Both of these ideas are part of what is known as 'economic Taoism'."
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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2/19/2011 6:05:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No.
Should we subsidize education?
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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2/19/2011 11:50:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 6:07:35 PM, Sieben wrote:
A market isn't a place with tents and stores. Its a place where people don't attack eachother.

Actually, the market is a bunch of tents and stores. Anarcho-Capitalism is the political philosophy in which nobody attacks each other.

Aren't those the definitions?
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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2/19/2011 11:53:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 6:14:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
You're missing the point.

Also, I'm not defending it, I'm just bringing up a discussion.

The market and the government are not one in the same, as your post makes them out to be. The government is a territorial structure that wields a degree of authority over people, while the market is just a description of the way that those people trade with one another.

When working with the correct definitions, your post does not logically follow.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/20/2011 1:33:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 11:50:31 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/19/2011 6:07:35 PM, Sieben wrote:
A market isn't a place with tents and stores. Its a place where people don't attack eachother.

Actually, the market is a bunch of tents and stores. Anarcho-Capitalism is the political philosophy in which nobody attacks each other.

Aren't those the definitions?

Anarcho-Capitalism is definitely not Pacifistic.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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2/20/2011 1:35:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:33:01 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/19/2011 11:50:31 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/19/2011 6:07:35 PM, Sieben wrote:
A market isn't a place with tents and stores. Its a place where people don't attack eachother.

Actually, the market is a bunch of tents and stores. Anarcho-Capitalism is the political philosophy in which nobody attacks each other.

Aren't those the definitions?

Anarcho-Capitalism is definitely not Pacifistic.

It is, in the sense that it says that pacifism is what ought to be. Having no aggression is exactly the same as having no violence, as there couldn't be any morally permissible retaliatory violence in the absence of the initial aggression.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/20/2011 1:40:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 11:53:08 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/19/2011 6:14:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
You're missing the point.

Also, I'm not defending it, I'm just bringing up a discussion.

The market and the government are not one in the same, as your post makes them out to be. The government is a territorial structure that wields a degree of authority over people, while the market is just a description of the way that those people trade with one another.

When working with the correct definitions, your post does not logically follow.

The point is that the government operates upon the same pressures which the market operates on. Essentially, the market itself is self-defeating because it gives rise to a market for something which itself is inherently anti-market.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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2/20/2011 1:51:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 6:05:20 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
No.

Nice long thought out answer.

Actually FREEDO the government would be to a 7/11 the same as a large group of rich customers with guns that threaten you, your freedom, your success, if you don't do everything they say. Plus they might take your stuff if they feel like it.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/20/2011 1:58:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:51:52 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 2/19/2011 6:05:20 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
No.

Nice long thought out answer.

Actually FREEDO the government would be to a 7/11 the same as a large group of rich customers with guns that threaten you, your freedom, your success, if you don't do everything they say. Plus they might take your stuff if they feel like it.

Which would be in the best interest of 7/11's(just an example place) competitors, thus creating a market for government. Government is obviously good news for big-business in America.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/20/2011 2:43:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
sure some people want government cause they benefit from it, but from a free market perspective, unlike pretty much all other goods you can legitimately obtain on the market, government is an auto-invasion of everyone else's rights whether they want it or not. the fact that government can arise spontaneously doesn't negate the fact that it grows and maintains itself by means that are antithetical to a free market.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/20/2011 7:27:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:40:19 AM, FREEDO wrote:

The point is that the government operates upon the same pressures which the market operates on.
Like... the same motives? Like if people in the market can act on greed so can the government? Duh. But that's a total red herring. The difference we always argue is aggression vs non-aggression.

Essentially, the market itself is self-defeating because it gives rise to a market for something which itself is inherently anti-market.
^Non sequitur

"It is now the person who wishes to reintroduce government who is caught in the public good problem. He cannot abolish anarchy and reintroduce government for himself alone; he must do it for everyone or for no one. If he does it for everyone, he himself gets but a tiny fraction of the 'benefit' he expects the reintroduction of government to provide."

^Bon sequitur
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