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Redistribution of Wealth

lewis20
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2/22/2011 1:51:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not talking about specifics or how our society works now, not talking about that capitalism or corporatism or socialism.
I know you can argue the inequalities of our system and so on. But my question is if,from a fresh slate, we had a system where everyone earned a proportional income to what value they are to society (skill, effort etc.). Who would argue that there should be redistribution of wealth against the will of those whose assets are being redistributed.
Basically if everyone got what they earned would anyone still want to see more level wealth distribution.
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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/22/2011 1:58:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 1:51:20 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I'm not talking about specifics or how our society works now, not talking about that capitalism or corporatism or socialism.
I know you can argue the inequalities of our system and so on. But my question is if,from a fresh slate, we had a system where everyone earned a proportional income to what value they are to society (skill, effort etc.). Who would argue that there should be redistribution of wealth against the will of those whose assets are being redistributed.
Basically if everyone got what they earned would anyone still want to see more level wealth distribution.

'Cept it's usually from value to an employer, not some vague 'society' - so no idea what's being paid from e.g., state or business, but state only really makes sense in regards to the question, so whether you like it or not you are describing a certain system.

So, under System That Shall Not Be Named, should say farmer gain benefits above being 'farmer allocation via production output', differentially from say a doctor? Depends what importance you place on each position in your System That Shall Not Be Named. Unless you are simply talking about excess value distributed by population equally as a Christmas bonus - which has its own issues. :P Either way it's an economic clusterf*** of an idea.
lewis20
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2/22/2011 2:05:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm talking about a non-existent perfect system where externalities are all accounted for and what the individual gives to the society as a whole is proportional to the income they receive.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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2/22/2011 8:57:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 2:05:47 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I'm talking about a non-existent perfect system where externalities are all accounted for and what the individual gives to the society as a whole is proportional to the income they receive.

Non-existent perfect systems where everything works fine don't really need to be argued over, do they?
Caramel
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2/22/2011 2:52:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The value of people's contributions don't tend to be represented well in the current system. If the disparity were much more relaxed there would be much more argument for keeping things the same.
no comment
Ore_Ele
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2/22/2011 3:53:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 1:51:20 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I'm not talking about specifics or how our society works now, not talking about that capitalism or corporatism or socialism.
I know you can argue the inequalities of our system and so on. But my question is if,from a fresh slate, we had a system where everyone earned a proportional income to what value they are to society (skill, effort etc.). Who would argue that there should be redistribution of wealth against the will of those whose assets are being redistributed.
Basically if everyone got what they earned would anyone still want to see more level wealth distribution.

I'll bite and say yes.

Even in a perfect system, markets change. Demand for different products change, and so jobs within those markets will be lost and created. When an individual loses their job, there will always be a time delay until they get a new one. It can be important to help them out until then and can accurately be viewed as an investment.

If someone loses their job, and in turn loses their home (with no source of income, they cannot afford to live anywhere that is not free), they are not going to be able to find a job (without a home, keeping a clean suit and showering and staying well groomed for interviews can be extremely difficult) and so, can no longer contribute to society. By providing them temporary assistance, until they find a new job and get back on their feet, you keep them helping society and help maintain both maximum satisfaction from people (no one likes being homeless or seeing the homeless on the side of the road) and helps maintain maximum production (since it gets people back into the work environment where they can help.
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Sieben
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2/22/2011 4:05:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 3:53:50 PM, OreEle wrote:

When an individual loses their job, there will always be a time delay until they get a new one. It can be important to help them out until then and can accurately be viewed as an investment.

So what you're saying is that you can forecast the event, plan, and avoid it.

If someone loses their job, and in turn loses their home (with no source of income, they cannot afford to live anywhere that is not free), they are not going to be able to find a job (without a home, keeping a clean suit and showering and staying well groomed for interviews can be extremely difficult) and so, can no longer contribute to society. By providing them temporary assistance, until they find a new job and get back on their feet, you keep them helping society and help maintain both maximum satisfaction from people (no one likes being homeless or seeing the homeless on the side of the road) and helps maintain maximum production (since it gets people back into the work environment where they can help.

So what you're saying is that you could turn a profit by offering people some sort of risk-mitigation with their employment status. Something like health-insurance but for jobs instead of kidney failures... hmmmmm
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Puck
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2/22/2011 4:10:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 4:05:42 PM, Sieben wrote:
So what you're saying is that you could turn a profit by offering people some sort of risk-mitigation with their employment status. Something like health-insurance but for jobs instead of kidney failures... hmmmmm

Yes there is income insurance. :P
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/22/2011 4:13:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 4:05:42 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/22/2011 3:53:50 PM, OreEle wrote:

When an individual loses their job, there will always be a time delay until they get a new one. It can be important to help them out until then and can accurately be viewed as an investment.

So what you're saying is that you can forecast the event, plan, and avoid it.

not avoid it, but prepare for it to minimize the damage of it.


If someone loses their job, and in turn loses their home (with no source of income, they cannot afford to live anywhere that is not free), they are not going to be able to find a job (without a home, keeping a clean suit and showering and staying well groomed for interviews can be extremely difficult) and so, can no longer contribute to society. By providing them temporary assistance, until they find a new job and get back on their feet, you keep them helping society and help maintain both maximum satisfaction from people (no one likes being homeless or seeing the homeless on the side of the road) and helps maintain maximum production (since it gets people back into the work environment where they can help.


So what you're saying is that you could turn a profit by offering people some sort of risk-mitigation with their employment status. Something like health-insurance but for jobs instead of kidney failures... hmmmmm

Yes, unemployment insurance. We already have it. People pay into it, and when they collect, others complain.
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Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/22/2011 4:17:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 4:13:26 PM, OreEle wrote:

not avoid it, but prepare for it to minimize the damage of it.
Its unavoidable now?

Yes, unemployment insurance. We already have it. People pay into it, and when they collect, others complain.

So what you're saying is we don't need redistribution of wealth.
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TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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2/22/2011 8:01:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm guessing this system isn't going to have public education available, so the market will likely be flooded with low-skill workers, which will lead to low wages and high rates of poverty.

First, I'd recommend redistributing wealth into the educational system so that the economy will have more professionals to create jobs, along with more high-skilled workers, both of which will lead to higher wages and less poverty.
Sieben
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2/22/2011 9:21:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 8:01:32 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
I'm guessing this system isn't going to have public education available, so the market will likely be flooded with low-skill workers, which will lead to low wages and high rates of poverty.

Education costs as much as an internet connection. How can you say such asinine things?

First I'd recommend moving wealth out of capital into education so later we can create more capital. This will reduce the amount of jobs currently available in capital intensive industries, but later it will increase the amount of jobs because for some reason, professionals create jobs and there aren't enough professionals now.

Fix'd
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TheAtheistAllegiance
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2/23/2011 12:12:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 9:21:43 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/22/2011 8:01:32 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
I'm guessing this system isn't going to have public education available, so the market will likely be flooded with low-skill workers, which will lead to low wages and high rates of poverty.

Education costs as much as an internet connection. How can you say such asinine things?

It actually costs more than that:

http://degreedirectory.org...

First I'd recommend moving wealth out of capital into education so later we can create more capital. This will reduce the amount of jobs currently available in capital intensive industries, but later it will increase the amount of jobs because for some reason, professionals create jobs and there aren't enough professionals now.

Fix'd

Good argument.
Sieben
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2/23/2011 6:10:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 12:12:53 AM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/22/2011 9:21:43 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/22/2011 8:01:32 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
I'm guessing this system isn't going to have public education available, so the market will likely be flooded with low-skill workers, which will lead to low wages and high rates of poverty.

Education costs as much as an internet connection. How can you say such asinine things?

It actually costs more than that:

http://degreedirectory.org...

How much does it cost you to use wikipedia? There are countless free textbooks and youtube videos on virtually every subject.

Good argument.

Oh I'm sorry did I blindly assert something just so I could reiterate my ideology? How rude of me.
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J.Kenyon
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2/23/2011 6:55:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 6:10:05 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/23/2011 12:12:53 AM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/22/2011 9:21:43 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/22/2011 8:01:32 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
I'm guessing this system isn't going to have public education available, so the market will likely be flooded with low-skill workers, which will lead to low wages and high rates of poverty.

Education costs as much as an internet connection. How can you say such asinine things?

It actually costs more than that:

http://degreedirectory.org...

How much does it cost you to use wikipedia? There are countless free textbooks and youtube videos on virtually every subject.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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2/23/2011 1:24:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In Britain, the process of redistributing wealth is more dramatic now than it has been since WWII: the redistribution of wealth being from the poor to the rich, of course.

http://news.bbc.co.uk...

And now with the Tories in power, the gap between the rich and the poor is set to widen further.

That's because they are forcing the poor to pay for public services that were once free and are slashing state benefits, pensions and public sector pay: as well as making hundreds of thousands of public servants redundant.

Meanwhile, the Banks that were responsible for causing the economic crisis in the first place, and had to be bailed out by the taxpayer, are paying their traders obscenely munificent bonuses while avoiding paying their fair share of tax to help clean up the mess they made.

For example, Barclays Bank were allowed to pay just 1% tax on their £6 billion ($10 billion) profits last year - that's compared to the 31% tax and National Insurance contributions a low-paid worker pays.

http://www.demotix.com...

I think the redistribution of wealth should be reversed away from those that already have in favour of those that don't have for a while, don't you?
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Ore_Ele
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2/23/2011 1:56:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 4:17:39 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/22/2011 4:13:26 PM, OreEle wrote:

not avoid it, but prepare for it to minimize the damage of it.
Its unavoidable now?

Yes, unemployment insurance. We already have it. People pay into it, and when they collect, others complain.

So what you're saying is we don't need redistribution of wealth.

You'd have to define "redistribution of wealth." Many people consider unemployment and social security a "redistribution of wealth." Or progressive taxes a "redistribution of wealth."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
TheAtheistAllegiance
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2/23/2011 2:56:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 6:10:05 AM, Sieben wrote:

How much does it cost you to use wikipedia? There are countless free textbooks and youtube videos on virtually every subject.

Right, because I can research some Wikipedia articles and obtain a degree that way. If that's the case, why again are you attending college?

Oh I'm sorry did I blindly assert something just so I could reiterate my ideology? How rude of me.

U mad?
TheAtheistAllegiance
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2/23/2011 2:59:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 6:55:41 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:



It's ironic that you post this when it's the Anarcho-Capitalists that go around regurgitating anything and everything Mises and Rothbard says.
Ore_Ele
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2/23/2011 3:01:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 2:56:59 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/23/2011 6:10:05 AM, Sieben wrote:

How much does it cost you to use wikipedia? There are countless free textbooks and youtube videos on virtually every subject.

Right, because I can research some Wikipedia articles and obtain a degree that way. If that's the case, why again are you attending college?

Oh I'm sorry did I blindly assert something just so I could reiterate my ideology? How rude of me.

U mad?

I think that it is fair to say that there is a difference between "education" and "quality education."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
TheAtheistAllegiance
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2/23/2011 3:38:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 3:01:25 PM, OreEle wrote:

I think that it is fair to say that there is a difference between "education" and "quality education."

Right, and accredited online education is typically very good, but just looking at some Wiki articles ain't gonna cut it.
Sieben
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2/23/2011 4:08:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 2:56:59 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Right, because I can research some Wikipedia articles and obtain a degree that way.
OH my bad. You said EDUCATION. You can get an education any old way. But no, you have to go to a state certified school to get a degree.

If that's the case, why again are you attending college?
Because american engineering is a f*cking 14th century mercantilist guild that wants to keep out all the brownies who are 10x as smart as any goddamn frat boy.

U mad?

U trolled brah?
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Sieben
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2/23/2011 4:32:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 2:59:03 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/23/2011 6:55:41 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:



It's ironic that you post this when it's the Anarcho-Capitalists that go around regurgitating anything and everything Mises and Rothbard says.

I don't think Reasoning represents "anarcho-capitalists"
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TheAtheistAllegiance
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2/23/2011 6:54:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 4:08:00 PM, Sieben wrote:

OH my bad. You said EDUCATION. You can get an education any old way. But no, you have to go to a state certified school to get a degree.

I was obviously referring to the context of obtaining a degree, but even so, you're not going to get an engineering education from Wikipedia.

Because american engineering is a f*cking 14th century mercantilist guild that wants to keep out all the brownies who are 10x as smart as any goddamn frat boy.

Or, they just want people who are certified in their skill-set, rather than someone who claimed to look everything up online.

U trolled brah?

Yeah, u mad.
TheAtheistAllegiance
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2/23/2011 7:04:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 4:32:48 PM, Sieben wrote:

I don't think Reasoning represents "anarcho-capitalists"

Well, at least you know what I'm talking about. However, nearly all of the Anarcho-Capitalists tend to get their information directly from Mises or Rothbard, and then just regurgitate it word for word, or repeatedly link articles to the same few websites -- more or less. Neither me, Orele, or most other Liberals on the site rely on one source of information, nor do we just repeat it in the way that Matt Damon was mocking.
Sieben
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2/23/2011 7:12:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 6:54:29 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/23/2011 4:08:00 PM, Sieben wrote:

OH my bad. You said EDUCATION. You can get an education any old way. But no, you have to go to a state certified school to get a degree.

I was obviously referring to the context of obtaining a degree, but even so, you're not going to get an engineering education from Wikipedia.

What does it take to get an education? MIT professors post their lectures on youtube. That's top quality education no?

Because american engineering is a f*cking 14th century mercantilist guild that wants to keep out all the brownies who are 10x as smart as any goddamn frat boy.

Or, they just want people who are certified in their skill-set, rather than someone who claimed to look everything up online.

If companies care they can just administer a test. They don't know what goes on in our classrooms. Its just a rite of passage.

Yeah, u mad.

fapfapfap I hear a liberal jacking off in public
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Sieben
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2/23/2011 7:15:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 7:04:10 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Well, at least you know what I'm talking about. However, nearly all of the Anarcho-Capitalists tend to get their information directly from Mises or Rothbard, and then just regurgitate it word for word, or repeatedly link articles to the same few websites -- more or less.

Source? Reasoning is one person. Do Anne and Kenyon repeatedly quote ancaps? Why don't you go over to the mises.org forums and see how few quotebombing there is.

Troll.

Neither me, Orele, or most other Liberals on the site rely on one source of information, nor do we just repeat it in the way that Matt Damon was mocking.

If only you would. Then you could at least get your ideology right.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/23/2011 7:29:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
fapfapfap I hear a liberal jacking off in public:

Not gonna lie... I lol'd
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TheAtheistAllegiance
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2/23/2011 10:16:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 7:12:58 PM, Sieben wrote:

What does it take to get an education? MIT professors post their lectures on youtube. That's top quality education no?

Yeah, that could be considered top quality education, but it still doesn't count as a degree.

If companies care they can just administer a test. They don't know what goes on in our classrooms. Its just a rite of passage.

They can, but most seem to prefer a degree to be on the resume.

fapfapfap I hear a liberal jacking off in public

Yep, he definitely mad.
TheAtheistAllegiance
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2/23/2011 10:23:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 7:15:16 PM, Sieben wrote:

Source? Reasoning is one person. Do Anne and Kenyon repeatedly quote ancaps? Why don't you go over to the mises.org forums and see how few quotebombing there is.

Troll.

You expect me to go through all of the forums and source it to you? Quit smoking so much crack; it's affecting your brain. And yes, Ann does often link the common Anarchist sites, along with putting forth the exact arguments that Mises put forth. J Kenyon probably does it the least, yet even many of his arguments replicate Mises' with nearly exact precision.

Also, I wasn't referring to just quotes in particular, you imbecile.

If only you would. Then you could at least get your ideology right.

You can't get yours right either; you stole the meteorite. Remember that, smart guy?