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To Socialists

lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/23/2011 8:02:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A question from Milton Friedman that I've never heard answered
"where in the world you find these angels who are going to organize society for us?"
The question has nothing to do with capitalism, so try not to bash it too much in your answer.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/23/2011 8:12:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Techno Allah
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/23/2011 9:11:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 8:10:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Idiot.

Wait. Milton Friedman had a lot of problems, but he wasn't an idiot. Plz to respond to his argument?
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/23/2011 9:21:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 9:11:57 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/23/2011 8:10:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Idiot.

Wait. Milton Friedman had a lot of problems, but he wasn't an idiot. Plz to respond to his argument?

Techno Allah
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/23/2011 9:29:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 8:12:43 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Techno Allah

Who programs techno allah
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/23/2011 11:05:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 10:06:04 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
Voters ultimately have they say in how society is organized. Nobody is an angel, so the system isn't perfect, but no system is.

HuRR DRRR http://www.debate.org...

TAA abandoned this thread after I whopped him on democratic theory :(
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/23/2011 11:09:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 10:06:04 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
Voters ultimately have they say in how society is organized. Nobody is an angel, so the system isn't perfect, but no system is.

So voters are the angel, smart enough to organize society?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/23/2011 11:16:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 9:29:10 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/23/2011 8:12:43 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Techno Allah

Who programs techno allah

Techno Allah is a higher intelligence that is brought on by the technological singularity.

Techno Allah may very well be programmed by a machine.

So it's a gamble. Either Techno Allah destroys the human race for being really more trouble than its worth.. Or Techno Allah decides to take on the challenge of governing us.

I think after a few failed attempts, Techno Allah would just give up and vaporize us..

Or matrix. Probably matrix.

...

Nah, almost definitely vaporize us.

;_;
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/23/2011 11:50:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 11:46:59 PM, Sangers wrote:
Anarcho-Socialism xD woot woot!

Oh boy...

Just when I thought anarchism was bad enough you and others add socialism to it. That's just overkill, dude.
Sangers
Posts: 419
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2/23/2011 11:58:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 11:50:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:46:59 PM, Sangers wrote:
Anarcho-Socialism xD woot woot!

Oh boy...

Just when I thought anarchism was bad enough you and others add socialism to it. That's just overkill, dude.

I stopped reading here >.< WHHAT??!
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/24/2011 12:00:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 11:58:07 PM, Sangers wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:50:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:46:59 PM, Sangers wrote:
Anarcho-Socialism xD woot woot!

Oh boy...

Just when I thought anarchism was bad enough you and others add socialism to it. That's just overkill, dude.

I stopped reading here >.< WHHAT??!

I'm a hardline statist. I'm not very authoritarian though except when it comes to crime.
Sangers
Posts: 419
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2/24/2011 12:01:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 12:00:27 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:58:07 PM, Sangers wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:50:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:46:59 PM, Sangers wrote:
Anarcho-Socialism xD woot woot!

Oh boy...

Just when I thought anarchism was bad enough you and others add socialism to it. That's just overkill, dude.

I stopped reading here >.< WHHAT??!

I'm a hardline statist. I'm not very authoritarian though except when it comes to crime.

LYNCH THAT FASCIST!!!
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/24/2011 12:05:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 12:01:45 AM, Sangers wrote:
At 2/24/2011 12:00:27 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:58:07 PM, Sangers wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:50:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:46:59 PM, Sangers wrote:
Anarcho-Socialism xD woot woot!

Oh boy...

Just when I thought anarchism was bad enough you and others add socialism to it. That's just overkill, dude.

I stopped reading here >.< WHHAT??!

I'm a hardline statist. I'm not very authoritarian though except when it comes to crime.

LYNCH THAT FASCIST!!!

Nah, I'm far from it. Fascists are extremely nationalistic and militaristic. I'm neither. :)
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/24/2011 12:09:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 9:11:57 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/23/2011 8:10:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Idiot.

Wait. Milton Friedman had a lot of problems, but he wasn't an idiot. Plz to respond to his argument?

I haven't actually watched the video. My apologies if it's any better than the question OP quoted.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/24/2011 12:10:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 11:50:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:46:59 PM, Sangers wrote:
Anarcho-Socialism xD woot woot!

Oh boy...

Just when I thought anarchism was bad enough you and others add socialism to it. That's just overkill, dude.

Anarchists have been Socialist from the very beginning.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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2/24/2011 12:14:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 12:10:26 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:50:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:46:59 PM, Sangers wrote:
Anarcho-Socialism xD woot woot!

Oh boy...

Just when I thought anarchism was bad enough you and others add socialism to it. That's just overkill, dude.

Anarchists have been Socialist from the very beginning.

No they haven't. Sieben. I use him as the example because he's the best anarchist on this site.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/24/2011 12:28:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 12:14:15 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/24/2011 12:10:26 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:50:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:46:59 PM, Sangers wrote:
Anarcho-Socialism xD woot woot!

Oh boy...

Just when I thought anarchism was bad enough you and others add socialism to it. That's just overkill, dude.

Anarchists have been Socialist from the very beginning.

No they haven't. Sieben. I use him as the example because he's the best anarchist on this site.

I'm not just talking about Anarchists on the site. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon was the first person to call himself an Anarchist, he was a Socialist. Joseph Déjacque was the first person to use the word "Libertarian" in a political context and apply it to himself, he was a Communist.
Peter Kropotkin.
Mikhail Bakunin.
So many more.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/24/2011 1:36:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 12:09:42 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/23/2011 9:11:57 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/23/2011 8:10:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Idiot.

Wait. Milton Friedman had a lot of problems, but he wasn't an idiot. Plz to respond to his argument?

I haven't actually watched the video. My apologies if it's any better than the question OP quoted.

am I missing some obvious answer or use some blatant fallacy in my question or something
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/24/2011 1:45:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 1:36:28 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/24/2011 12:09:42 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/23/2011 9:11:57 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/23/2011 8:10:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Idiot.

Wait. Milton Friedman had a lot of problems, but he wasn't an idiot. Plz to respond to his argument?

I haven't actually watched the video. My apologies if it's any better than the question OP quoted.

am I missing some obvious answer or use some blatant fallacy in my question or something

There's nothing inherently false with asking a question but it uses a false assumption that is probably the number one bogus attack against Socialists from Capitalists. He's probably not stupid, I'm just tired of hearing it. Hearing, that is, that it's all about a planned economy for Socialists. It's exactly the opposite.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/24/2011 1:50:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 1:45:16 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:36:28 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/24/2011 12:09:42 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/23/2011 9:11:57 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/23/2011 8:10:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Idiot.

Wait. Milton Friedman had a lot of problems, but he wasn't an idiot. Plz to respond to his argument?

I haven't actually watched the video. My apologies if it's any better than the question OP quoted.

am I missing some obvious answer or use some blatant fallacy in my question or something

There's nothing inherently false with asking a question but it uses a false assumption that is probably the number one bogus attack against Socialists from Capitalists. He's probably not stupid, I'm just tired of hearing it. Hearing, that is, that it's all about a planned economy for Socialists. It's exactly the opposite.

So I don't have the right definition of socialism
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/24/2011 1:51:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 1:50:30 AM, lewis20 wrote:
So I don't have the right definition of socialism

Freedo sometimes has very peculiar definitions, he's hard to follow.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/24/2011 1:53:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 1:51:39 AM, Nags wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:50:30 AM, lewis20 wrote:
So I don't have the right definition of socialism

Freedo sometimes has very peculiar definitions, he's hard to follow.

So should I say a centrally planned economy.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/24/2011 1:54:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 1:53:15 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:51:39 AM, Nags wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:50:30 AM, lewis20 wrote:
So I don't have the right definition of socialism

Freedo sometimes has very peculiar definitions, he's hard to follow.

So should I say a centrally planned economy.

Not sure. Ask him what his definition is, I dunno what goes through his mind.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/24/2011 2:06:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 1:53:15 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:51:39 AM, Nags wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:50:30 AM, lewis20 wrote:
So I don't have the right definition of socialism

Freedo sometimes has very peculiar definitions, he's hard to follow.

So should I say a centrally planned economy.

Yes. And a planned economy can be both on the left or right. The vast majority of Socialists I know are not in favor of a planned economy.

I always say "If you want the definition of an 'ism', you should ask someone from that is". As a Socialist, I say Socialism is worker management of the means of production. This means a more decentralized society, not a more centralized one.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/24/2011 2:08:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 2:06:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I always say "If you want the definition of an 'ism', you should ask someone from that is".

...As if there are not disagreements on the definition of socialism between people who call themselves socialists.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/24/2011 2:14:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 2:06:43 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:53:15 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:51:39 AM, Nags wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:50:30 AM, lewis20 wrote:
So I don't have the right definition of socialism

Freedo sometimes has very peculiar definitions, he's hard to follow.

So should I say a centrally planned economy.

Yes. And a planned economy can be both on the left or right. The vast majority of Socialists I know are not in favor of a planned economy.

I always say "If you want the definition of an 'ism', you should ask someone from that is". As a Socialist, I say Socialism is worker management of the means of production. This means a more decentralized society, not a more centralized one.

So then what would be the word for all the past trials that claimed to be socialism, as well as the centrally planned economy that the U.S. has been moving towards for the past century.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler