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Intellectual Property - piracy

Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/24/2011 10:01:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.dump.com...

Getting the 'business' out of music seems appealing to this singer. Now if we can just get the 'business' out of everything, people just might enjoy life a lot more!
no comment
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/24/2011 10:09:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yeah man, fück capitalism, fight the system!

...oh wait, capitalists are actually opposed to intellectual property. Nvm.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/24/2011 10:19:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:09:54 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Not all of them. :P

Yes well, IP was some Athenian king's idea, and he never gave you permission to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/24/2011 10:31:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:29:16 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:19:09 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:09:54 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Not all of them. :P

Yes well, IP was some Athenian king's idea, and he never gave you permission to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

In a pure theoretical sense, what do you think intellectual property is?

If I can put a property tax on it, I'll support it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/24/2011 10:32:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:29:16 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:19:09 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:09:54 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Not all of them. :P

Yes well, IP was some Athenian king's idea, and he never gave you permission to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

In a pure theoretical sense, what do you think intellectual property is?

The right to exclusive use of an idea.

I don't consider contractual IP to be "IP".
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http://www.debate.org...
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/24/2011 10:47:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have my own issues with IP, in finding the fine line which seperates what I support, from what I don't.

For example, I don't support that someone can spend vast resources to discover something, then other people can just copy it to make money off of it without giving credit to the original creator.

But then, I also don't like that a person can hold their own ideas hostage from the world unless they are paid a given amount of money.

I also think that even if you come up with an idea (say a new metal alloy), then a year or two later, someone else comes up with the same alloy, but they did it completely independent from the first dude (as in, they never even knew that the other guy already made it). I feel that they should have some right to the work that they did and be able to sell it.

I guess that I view that IP should have a time limit to where it becomes public domain, and, if it is something of urgent need (like the cure to cancer), the government ought be able to force someone to sell it, if they are holding out with it. That's not perfect, but it's the closest that I can do.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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2/24/2011 10:52:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:32:23 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:29:16 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:19:09 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:09:54 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Not all of them. :P

Yes well, IP was some Athenian king's idea, and he never gave you permission to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

In a pure theoretical sense, what do you think intellectual property is?

The right to exclusive use of an idea.

I don't consider contractual IP to be "IP".

Meh. I consider it to be more along the lines of the right to exclusive use of a particular material manifestation of an idea. I can't patent a philosophical theory, but you can sure as hell bet I'm getting a copyright on the book I write about it.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/24/2011 11:23:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:52:37 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Meh. I consider it to be more along the lines of the right to exclusive use of a particular material manifestation of an idea. I can't patent a philosophical theory, but you can sure as hell bet I'm getting a copyright on the book I write about it.

My litmus test for IP *rights* is what happens if we both write the book independently, but it contains the same content.
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Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/24/2011 6:53:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:09:06 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Yeah man, fück capitalism, fight the system!

...oh wait, capitalists are actually opposed to intellectual property. Nvm.

How can any capitalist oppose IP?
no comment
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/24/2011 7:03:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 6:53:37 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:09:06 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Yeah man, fück capitalism, fight the system!

...oh wait, capitalists are actually opposed to intellectual property. Nvm.

How can any capitalist oppose IP?

Dude its like the mainstream position over at mises.org.

Here's the guy who started it all. http://www.stephankinsella.com...
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,222
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2/24/2011 7:36:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 7:03:22 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/24/2011 6:53:37 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:09:06 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Yeah man, fück capitalism, fight the system!

...oh wait, capitalists are actually opposed to intellectual property. Nvm.

How can any capitalist oppose IP?

Dude its like the mainstream position over at mises.org.

Here's the guy who started it all. http://www.stephankinsella.com...

IP copyright is censorship. That's the idea I got from that.
Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/24/2011 9:46:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So how would you incent an inventor to invent if he or she cannot patent? I seem to be missing a big part of the equation here... I've never heard a capitalist make an argument against IP and I can't even imagine how they would try. I suppose I can research it myself but I'm at work and it will be some time before I get that chance.
no comment
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/24/2011 10:04:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have my own issues with IP, in finding the fine line which seperates what I support, from what I don't.

For example, I don't support that someone can spend vast resources to discover something, then other people can just copy it to make money off of it without giving credit to the original creator.

But then, I also don't like that a person can hold their own ideas hostage from the world unless they are paid a given amount of money.

Sounds like if-by-whiskey.

I also think that even if you come up with an idea (say a new metal alloy), then a year or two later, someone else comes up with the same alloy, but they did it completely independent from the first dude (as in, they never even knew that the other guy already made it). I feel that they should have some right to the work that they did and be able to sell it.
That would negate the whole idea, almost anyone would be able to claim ignorance. Furthermore, can someone who independently arrives at the conclusion that a given land area would be good for farming start farming it just because he didn't notice someone already plowed the field and expect not to be kicked off?

I guess that I view that IP should have a time limit to where it becomes public domain
That's present law. The only objective consideration I can think of is that whatever the timer is, it starts at death for copyright, and it can't be so short as to clearly render invention a poor decision where it would not be otherwise.

and, if it is something of urgent need (like the cure to cancer), the government ought be able to force someone to sell it, if they are holding out with it.
And that is also present law, though unequivocally evil. Your need is not a claim.

My litmus test for IP *rights* is what happens if we both write the book independently, but it contains the same content.
The second guy gets laughed out of the room, because there is no reasonable doubt that he is full of **** unless it's a very very short book with no illustrations.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/25/2011 12:40:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"It is debatable whether copyrights and patents really are necessary to encourage the production of creative works and inventions, or that the incremental gains in innovation outweigh the immense costs of an IP system." - http://mises.org...

Not for nothing, but this is pretty much EXACTLY what I have been saying for the last six months on this site - with the slight twist that I'm talking about all property and not just of the intellectual sort. The philosophy is the same: why limit freedoms, grant philisophically troublesome authorities, and waste all our efforts and resources in implementation of a haphazard system of treachery? The only argument worth making is that we simply produce more that way, but there is reason to believe that is not so - as this guy is pointing out. Even if we did actually produce less, I'd say it would have to be a whole lot f*cking less before I'd want to implement bankers, insurance agents, salesmen, police officers, attorneys, politicians and bureaucrats, entrepreneurs and businessmen, customer service, administrative/secretarial, stockbrokers, security/prison guards, restaurant personel, retail personel, marketing personel, and generally people involved in the production of low-quality goods. If we started producing less under property-less conditions, then all the folks in these professions could fill in when people start calling in sick to work.

There is enough labor and resources in our economy for most people to stay unemployed while maintaining the same level of quality we currently enjoy.

There's no difference between what I'm saying and what your boy is saying but I haven't read half of the article yet. I've noticed that it isn't hard to agree with most authors when it comes to criticizing the current situation, but it seems everyone and their mother has a different idea of exactly what to do instead.
no comment
Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/25/2011 12:58:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"But as libertarians recognize, following Locke, it is only the first occupier or user of such property that can be its natural owner. Only the first-occupier homesteading rule provides an objective, ethical, and non-arbitrary allocation of ownership in scarce resources."

Interesting how he thinks that ethics are of no concern with this first occupier theory. It seems rather crude. So if there's a nice piece of land over yonder then you and I have to race to it and plant flag? Seems to me like everyone would be much better off if there were some attempt at organization of interests. A community should be setup and run efficiently, not just disected by competitors.
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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2/26/2011 5:05:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 11:23:03 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/24/2011 10:52:37 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Meh. I consider it to be more along the lines of the right to exclusive use of a particular material manifestation of an idea. I can't patent a philosophical theory, but you can sure as hell bet I'm getting a copyright on the book I write about it.

My litmus test for IP *rights* is what happens if we both write the book independently, but it contains the same content.

Who patents it first? :P
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/26/2011 7:38:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:06:57 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I'm just going to go ahead and pirate regardless. Oh, wait. I've already been doing that. :P

This.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/26/2011 9:38:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:01:42 AM, Caramel wrote:
http://www.dump.com...

Getting the 'business' out of music seems appealing to this singer. Now if we can just get the 'business' out of everything, people just might enjoy life a lot more!:

Unfortunately life is a lot more complicated than that. It took capital to record her music. She makes money (so she can eat and have a place to live) because of her music. She just is enchanted by the idea of it, not that she's bothering to see it to its logical conclusion.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/26/2011 9:39:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 10:09:06 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Yeah man, fück capitalism, fight the system!

...oh wait, capitalists are actually opposed to intellectual property. Nvm.:

I'm not, and neither were the Framers.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/26/2011 9:53:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 5:05:04 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Who patents it first? :P

If you have to put it down on a piece of paper, its not a natural right :I
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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2/26/2011 11:32:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 9:53:47 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/26/2011 5:05:04 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Who patents it first? :P

If you have to put it down on a piece of paper, its not a natural right :I

In my view, NOTHING is a natural right.

If such rights were to exist, though, it is not because they are on paper--it is because they are on paper that they can be protected.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/26/2011 1:29:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 11:32:43 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

In my view, NOTHING is a natural right.
Another time.

If such rights were to exist, though, it is not because they are on paper--it is because they are on paper that they can be protected.

Well any right can be put on paper. Contractual IP! That doesn't make me a proponent of IP.
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Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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2/26/2011 2:11:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Intellectual property is to modern capitalism what tariffs were to earlier forms of capitalism.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/26/2011 3:54:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 11:32:43 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/26/2011 9:53:47 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 2/26/2011 5:05:04 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Who patents it first? :P

If you have to put it down on a piece of paper, its not a natural right :I

In my view, NOTHING is a natural right.:

Not objectively, but go in to a neighborhood and randomly kill someone's family member. Their reaction is borne out of an intrinsic right they expect you to know and should have followed.

Those are the natural rights people refer to.

If such rights were to exist, though, it is not because they are on paper--it is because they are on paper that they can be protected.:

Codifying the right gives it backbone. It's evidentiary. Much like you and I physically talking is good, but when we type it, we have verifiable logs keeping us in check at the risk of contradicting ourselves. Same principle.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)