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lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/4/2011 2:27:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The number I've been hearing is something like 33 billion in cuts.
The deficit is over 1.3 trillion and we managed to cut 33 billion,~ 2.5%.
The bigger joke is that both sides are treating 33 billion like its a big deal.
This doesn't even get into the 15 trillion we are in debt.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters grow up and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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4/4/2011 2:05:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own.

Whoa! Wait, what? You mean voters are irrational? Nuh uh!

So until the voters grow up and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

When will people finally learn from history that nobody ever learns anything from history?
Ore_Ele
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4/4/2011 2:08:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:05:13 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own.


Whoa! Wait, what? You mean voters are irrational? Nuh uh!

So until the voters grow up and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

When will people finally learn from history that nobody ever learns anything from history?

They would if history was more entertaining than a Ben Stein clear eyes commercial.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/4/2011 2:20:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters grow up and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

Thats why the Constitution works and the nearly unrestrained level of democracy we have doesn't work.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,287
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4/4/2011 2:22:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:20:26 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters grow up and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

Thats why the Constitution works and the nearly unrestrained level of democracy we have doesn't work.

Nu uhh!
Regulations only work for big bad corporations,
It doesn't work to regulate the Government.
haha
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/4/2011 2:48:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:20:26 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters grow up and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

Thats why the Constitution works and the nearly unrestrained level of democracy we have doesn't work.

You do realize that it is the constitution that grants us this democracy which is failing us, right?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/4/2011 2:51:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:48:56 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:20:26 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters grow up and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

Thats why the Constitution works and the nearly unrestrained level of democracy we have doesn't work.

You do realize that it is the constitution that grants us this democracy which is failing us, right?

The constitution is a restraint on democracy.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,287
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4/4/2011 2:53:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:51:17 PM, lewis20 wrote:


The constitution is a restraint on democracy.

When it was first made it was a laundry list of what the government cannot do to the people. Lately it is a laundry list of what the government must do to the people.

We need to tear it up and start from scratch.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/4/2011 2:55:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:53:49 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:51:17 PM, lewis20 wrote:


The constitution is a restraint on democracy.

When it was first made it was a laundry list of what the government cannot do to the people. Lately it is a laundry list of what the government must do to the people.

We need to tear it up and start from scratch.

It allows for that, too bad we don't follow it hah
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,287
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4/4/2011 2:57:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:55:40 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:53:49 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:51:17 PM, lewis20 wrote:


The constitution is a restraint on democracy.

When it was first made it was a laundry list of what the government cannot do to the people. Lately it is a laundry list of what the government must do to the people.

We need to tear it up and start from scratch.

It allows for that, too bad we don't follow it hah

I can't tell if I like your ideology, or your avatar more Lewis.
Greyparrot
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4/4/2011 3:01:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters experience a few years of Carter inflation and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/4/2011 3:07:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 3:01:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters experience a few years of Carter inflation and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

I don't think Carter level inflation would do the trick. People would not accept that it is their own fault, and they would blame whatever party they oppose (another reason I hate party politics).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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4/4/2011 3:07:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 2:53:49 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:51:17 PM, lewis20 wrote:


The constitution is a restraint on democracy.

When it was first made it was a laundry list of what the government cannot do to the people. Lately it is a laundry list of what the government must do to the people.

We need to tear it up and start from scratch.

Agreed (metaphorically, of course).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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4/4/2011 3:12:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 3:07:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 3:01:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters experience a few years of Carter inflation and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

I don't think Carter level inflation would do the trick. People would not accept that it is their own fault, and they would blame whatever party they oppose (another reason I hate party politics).

The point is, when everyone is suffering, you can get a consensus to scrap the entire idea of spending more than you make. Right now there are still a lot of people that still have their jobs and have a decent level of cost of living that they can afford. When you monkey with Everyone's cost of living through inflation, people will stop pointing fingers and say "I don't care who is at fault, just fix it"
Politicians promising fixes will then get elected and not have to worry about blame like they do now.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/4/2011 3:21:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 3:12:21 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 3:07:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 3:01:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 1:59:53 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 2:35:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Either they are complete morons or they have some sort of vested interest in the debt.

of course they do, that is because the people that vote are stupid and short sighted. To cut down the debt, is going to take massive spending cuts and/or massive tax increases. The average person does not want to see his taxes go up, nor does the average person want to see any government services that they benefit from go down.

Voters want the budget balance and the debt to go away, but they don't want to make the needed sacrifices to obtain that. They want everyone else to make a sacrifice, rather than themselves. They'll vote to cut other people's services, or raise other people's taxes, just not their own. So until the voters experience a few years of Carter inflation and learn responsibility, the government will never have an incentive to follow.

I don't think Carter level inflation would do the trick. People would not accept that it is their own fault, and they would blame whatever party they oppose (another reason I hate party politics).

The point is, when everyone is suffering, you can get a consensus to scrap the entire idea of spending more than you make. Right now there are still a lot of people that still have their jobs and have a decent level of cost of living that they can afford. When you monkey with Everyone's cost of living through inflation, people will stop pointing fingers and say "I don't care who is at fault, just fix it"
Politicians promising fixes will then get elected and not have to worry about blame like they do now.

Every politican promises to "fix things" I can't think of one politican that believes that everything is going swimmingly and we should stay exactly the same.

I honestly don't think people will ever openly accept what is needed, since what is needed is going to temporarily hurt before they get better and so they will view that "hurt" as things not getting better.

Our issues are not a little boo boo that we can rub ointment on to get better in a few weeks. It is more of a major surgery that will takes years of recovery and rehibilitation.

The people need an overall shift in their mindset (this is ultimately against a truely free market, and against freedom, since many people will argue that you should be free to have whatever mindset you want).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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4/4/2011 3:26:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Of course they promise to fix, but the fear of reprisal and blame exists when there are a good portion not affected (they don't care about the deficit spending)

Trust me OreEle, inflation will force everyone to care.

You would have never even heard of Ronald Reagan if it wasn't for Carter. That's the truth.
Now you understand why I am hoping for a nice few years of inflation :)
Ore_Ele
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4/4/2011 3:43:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 3:26:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Of course they promise to fix, but the fear of reprisal and blame exists when there are a good portion not affected (they don't care about the deficit spending).

But the democrats (people and politicians) blame Bush and years of "republican" wars and tax cuts for our current debt (even though they did very little to nothing to stop it), while republicans blame Obama and "nanny state" policies for our current debt. The thing is, even if everyone is effected, each side will blame the other side. So long as the ball keeps changing sides, the people are not going to listen.


Trust me OreEle, inflation will force everyone to care.

You would have never even heard of Ronald Reagan if it wasn't for Carter. That's the truth.
Now you understand why I am hoping for a nice few years of inflation :)

And even then, Reagan only started this massive spending (increasing the debt 186% in his 8 years), Carter increased the debt by only 46% in his 4 years. I believe that we need the opposite of what happened in the 80's. We need someone that is going to say, "sorry, but all these services are going to be pulled way back, our military spending is going to be pulled way back. Tax breaks and loopholes are going to be pulled way back." Someone that is going to cut back on restrictions on nuclear power, on drilling for oil, and is going to taylor unemployment as a service that gets people working (i.e. while on unemployment, you work part time for the city, cleaning parks and sidewalks and city buses, and whatnot).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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4/4/2011 3:54:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 3:43:05 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 3:26:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Of course they promise to fix, but the fear of reprisal and blame exists when there are a good portion not affected (they don't care about the deficit spending).

But the democrats (people and politicians) blame Bush and years of "republican" wars and tax cuts for our current debt (even though they did very little to nothing to stop it), while republicans blame Obama and "nanny state" policies for our current debt. The thing is, even if everyone is effected, each side will blame the other side. So long as the ball keeps changing sides, the people are not going to listen.

I still say you are wrong. The ball will not continue to change sides when everyone is affected. Why do you think the Democratic congress passed Reagan's agenda in the first 2 years? There was no blaming going around then because everyone was affected.
Ore_Ele
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4/4/2011 4:11:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 3:54:35 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 3:43:05 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 3:26:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Of course they promise to fix, but the fear of reprisal and blame exists when there are a good portion not affected (they don't care about the deficit spending).

But the democrats (people and politicians) blame Bush and years of "republican" wars and tax cuts for our current debt (even though they did very little to nothing to stop it), while republicans blame Obama and "nanny state" policies for our current debt. The thing is, even if everyone is effected, each side will blame the other side. So long as the ball keeps changing sides, the people are not going to listen.

I still say you are wrong. The ball will not continue to change sides when everyone is affected. Why do you think the Democratic congress passed Reagan's agenda in the first 2 years? There was no blaming going around then because everyone was affected.

A failed assassination attempt sent Reagan's approval numbers up over 70%, you can't vote against those very much.

Jimmy Carter's approval was 34 when he left office, the same as Bush's when he left. Congress was also around the same in 1980 as it was in 2008, around low 20's. Yet republicans did not bend to Obama like the democrats did to Reagan in those early years. And have been blaming Obama and democrats for everything that they possibly can.

http://uspolitics.about.com...
http://www.google.com...
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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4/4/2011 4:12:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 3:56:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Also, FDR was able to get what he wanted because everyone was affected by the depression. The blame came way, way after.

The blame also only comes from conservatives, while everyone dislikes Carter (obviously the conservatives dislike him more than liberals).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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4/4/2011 4:19:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This has nothing to do with approval ratings when a president leaves office, it is whether the majority of the people share in a misery (inflation or depression). While alot of people hated Bush (I did as well), people were not really suffering!
Ore_Ele
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4/4/2011 4:20:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 4:16:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I guess I am not a good convincer, we will have to see when inflation hit us.

Wasn't it inflation that helped the Nazi party take over?

lol, I couldn't resist the argumentum ad hitlerum.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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4/4/2011 4:23:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 4:20:00 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 4:16:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I guess I am not a good convincer, we will have to see when inflation hit us.

Wasn't it inflation that helped the Nazi party take over?

lol, I couldn't resist the argumentum ad hitlerum.

It is quite possible a form of fascism could take root since the inflation period is going to be extremely harsh due to the put-off techniques of propping up a fundamentally poor fiscal policy.
Ore_Ele
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4/4/2011 4:23:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 4:19:35 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
This has nothing to do with approval ratings when a president leaves office, it is whether the majority of the people share in a misery (inflation or depression). While alot of people hated Bush (I did as well), people were not really suffering!

Not until right after he left, lol. Either way, even if people are suffering, it still comes to who is blamed for it and who is trusted to reverse it? In this, the people are divided.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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4/4/2011 4:24:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 4:23:08 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/4/2011 4:20:00 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 4:16:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I guess I am not a good convincer, we will have to see when inflation hit us.

Wasn't it inflation that helped the Nazi party take over?

lol, I couldn't resist the argumentum ad hitlerum.

It is quite possible a form of fascism could take root since the inflation period is going to be extremely harsh due to the put-off techniques of propping up a fundamentally poor fiscal policy.

I might have someone I can vote for. I'm just hoping for a collapse of the two party system into a poly-party system, which I will hopefully then degrade into a no-party system.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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4/4/2011 4:25:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 4:23:37 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/4/2011 4:19:35 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
This has nothing to do with approval ratings when a president leaves office, it is whether the majority of the people share in a misery (inflation or depression). While alot of people hated Bush (I did as well), people were not really suffering!

Not until right after he left, lol. Either way, even if people are suffering, it still comes to who is blamed for it and who is trusted to reverse it? In this, the people are divided.

And I still say people who still have jobs have not seen a substantial reason to panic...yet...