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Do you think your taxes are fair

askbob
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4/14/2011 12:54:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Another reason of why I hate MSNBC Those faggols

WASHINGTON — For all the complaining this time of year, most Americans actually think the taxes they pay are fair.

Not that they're cheering. Fewer people expect refunds this year than in previous years, a new Associated Press-GfK poll shows. But as Monday's filing deadline approaches, the poll shows that 54 percent believe their tax bills are either somewhat fair or very fair, compared with 46 percent who say they are unfair.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Associated Press-GfK Poll was conducted March 24-28 by GfK Roper Public Affairs and Corporate Communications. It involved landline and cellphone interviews with 1,001 adults nationwide and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 4.2 percentage points.

So a sampling error of 4.2 percent means that only half of Americans think their taxes are fair while half think they are unfair.

Now let's look at this brilliant statistic.

47% of Americans do not pay federal income tax.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com...

Therefore only 3 % of people who actually pay taxes think that they are fair.

Good job MSNBC on yet another spin job.

Original Article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com...
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askbob
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4/14/2011 12:58:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Also anyone willing to take a random phone interview clearly has time to spare and thus is likely to be less wealthy and thus more likely to have no to little taxes to pay compared to a CEO or doctor.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
belle
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4/14/2011 1:11:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
that sounds like a mangling of statistics. presumably they at least asked if the person they were interviewing actually paid taxes before they were asked if they thought their taxes were fair.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
belle
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4/14/2011 1:37:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
also the 47% that "doesn't pay taxes" still has money withheld from their paychecks... sounds suspiciously like being taxed to me.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Greyparrot
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4/14/2011 4:30:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 1:37:13 AM, belle wrote:
also the 47% that "doesn't pay taxes" still has money withheld from their paychecks... sounds suspiciously like being taxed to me.

If you get it all back, why wouldn't you respond "Yes I had taxes withheld, I filed a return, I got it all back, I think that is fair"
Ore_Ele
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4/14/2011 4:47:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...

You know what is really interesting?

Seeing who doesn't pay taxes. And seeing the trend of those that don't. Like why are there actually people that make over $500,000 a year that are not paying taxes?

Why is there a growth of the percent of people not paying taxes in the HoH (100k - 2.1%, 200k - 2.5%, 500k - 5.3%)?
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innomen
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4/14/2011 5:12:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 4:47:06 PM, OreEle wrote:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...

You know what is really interesting?

Seeing who doesn't pay taxes. And seeing the trend of those that don't. Like why are there actually people that make over $500,000 a year that are not paying taxes?

Why is there a growth of the percent of people not paying taxes in the HoH (100k - 2.1%, 200k - 2.5%, 500k - 5.3%)?

Dunno, but i'd love to.
innomen
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4/14/2011 5:13:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 4:40:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
How many pages would it take to do flat tax? How about fair tax?
How many H and R Block people out of work? Probably 77,000.

I paid H & R Block $400.00 to do my taxes this year. Does that sound right? What sort of tax system do we have where you need pay a professional to do your taxes.
Ore_Ele
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4/14/2011 5:22:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 5:13:56 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/14/2011 4:40:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
How many pages would it take to do flat tax? How about fair tax?
How many H and R Block people out of work? Probably 77,000.

I paid H & R Block $400.00 to do my taxes this year. Does that sound right? What sort of tax system do we have where you need pay a professional to do your taxes.

A Capitalistic one.

You don't "have" to pay them to do your taxes. You could learn to do it yourself, like many people. Or, if you deduct, you can simply get turbotax for a fraction of that price, and you can deduct the cost of turbotax from your taxes (technically, your tax guy can do that too, and should be, but if you are not double checking it, you don't know).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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4/14/2011 5:27:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 5:12:29 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/14/2011 4:47:06 PM, OreEle wrote:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...

You know what is really interesting?

Seeing who doesn't pay taxes. And seeing the trend of those that don't. Like why are there actually people that make over $500,000 a year that are not paying taxes?

Why is there a growth of the percent of people not paying taxes in the HoH (100k - 2.1%, 200k - 2.5%, 500k - 5.3%)?

Dunno, but i'd love to.

I can only speculate, but charity is probably a big reason as well as other things you can write off. "Medical" expenses (I put that in quotations, because you can get massages written off as "medical"), other taxes, losses (big deal in the Oregon gov race last year on this), the list goes on.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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4/14/2011 5:51:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 5:27:02 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/14/2011 5:12:29 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/14/2011 4:47:06 PM, OreEle wrote:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...

You know what is really interesting?

Seeing who doesn't pay taxes. And seeing the trend of those that don't. Like why are there actually people that make over $500,000 a year that are not paying taxes?

Why is there a growth of the percent of people not paying taxes in the HoH (100k - 2.1%, 200k - 2.5%, 500k - 5.3%)?

Dunno, but i'd love to.

I can only speculate, but charity is probably a big reason as well as other things you can write off. "Medical" expenses (I put that in quotations, because you can get massages written off as "medical"), other taxes, losses (big deal in the Oregon gov race last year on this), the list goes on.

Tax Free Municipal Bonds.
Ore_Ele
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4/14/2011 6:02:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 5:51:52 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/14/2011 5:27:02 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/14/2011 5:12:29 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/14/2011 4:47:06 PM, OreEle wrote:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...

You know what is really interesting?

Seeing who doesn't pay taxes. And seeing the trend of those that don't. Like why are there actually people that make over $500,000 a year that are not paying taxes?

Why is there a growth of the percent of people not paying taxes in the HoH (100k - 2.1%, 200k - 2.5%, 500k - 5.3%)?

Dunno, but i'd love to.

I can only speculate, but charity is probably a big reason as well as other things you can write off. "Medical" expenses (I put that in quotations, because you can get massages written off as "medical"), other taxes, losses (big deal in the Oregon gov race last year on this), the list goes on.

Tax Free Municipal Bonds.

well yeah, that would be weird (though not surprising) is the government taxed you on the money that you made from loaning the government money.
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J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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4/14/2011 6:58:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 5:22:38 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/14/2011 5:13:56 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/14/2011 4:40:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
How many pages would it take to do flat tax? How about fair tax?
How many H and R Block people out of work? Probably 77,000.

I paid H & R Block $400.00 to do my taxes this year. Does that sound right? What sort of tax system do we have where you need pay a professional to do your taxes.

A Capitalistic one.

*facepalm*
wjmelements
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4/14/2011 9:28:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 6:58:28 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 4/14/2011 5:22:38 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/14/2011 5:13:56 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/14/2011 4:40:32 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
How many pages would it take to do flat tax? How about fair tax?
How many H and R Block people out of work? Probably 77,000.

I paid H & R Block $400.00 to do my taxes this year. Does that sound right? What sort of tax system do we have where you need pay a professional to do your taxes.

A Capitalistic one.

*facepalm*

Yeah. I'd say it's more of a reflection on federal democracy.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
askbob
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4/14/2011 11:22:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Like why are there actually people that make over $500,000 a year that are not paying taxes?

lol @ 2.6%

Think about it,

People who max out their roth 401ks (16,500 a year) since the age of 21 and retire at 65 making 8% interest and in a 25% tax bracket which is definetly do-able. At 65 they would have 13,240,000 in that account + social security. Say once they retire they sell all stocks and they invest in bonds and only make 4% per year. That's 529,600 a year with no tax liability.
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kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2011 11:14:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 11:22:38 PM, askbob wrote:
Like why are there actually people that make over $500,000 a year that are not paying taxes?

lol @ 2.6%

Think about it,

People who max out their roth 401ks (16,500 a year) since the age of 21 and retire at 65 making 8% interest and in a 25% tax bracket which is definetly do-able. At 65 they would have 13,240,000 in that account + social security. Say once they retire they sell all stocks and they invest in bonds and only make 4% per year. That's 529,600 a year with no tax liability.

Yeah. A lot of 21 year-olds have an extra $16,500 each year to put in their 401k. You're also ignoring the 40 years of inflation. If they started today, they would be making $529,600 a year in 2055. After inflation how much will that really be by today's standards (we're also ignoring any employer contribution)?

If we reverse apply it (looking at those who retired today), they would have started in 1967 (at age 21), and back then, there weren't a whole lot of 21 year olds putting $16,500 in a 401k (I'm not sure what the annual limit was back then).
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Greyparrot
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4/15/2011 11:20:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/15/2011 11:14:07 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/14/2011 11:22:38 PM, askbob wrote:
Like why are there actually people that make over $500,000 a year that are not paying taxes?

lol @ 2.6%

Think about it,

People who max out their roth 401ks (16,500 a year) since the age of 21 and retire at 65 making 8% interest and in a 25% tax bracket which is definetly do-able. At 65 they would have 13,240,000 in that account + social security. Say once they retire they sell all stocks and they invest in bonds and only make 4% per year. That's 529,600 a year with no tax liability.

Yeah. A lot of 21 year-olds have an extra $16,500 each year to put in their 401k. You're also ignoring the 40 years of inflation. If they started today, they would be making $529,600 a year in 2055. After inflation how much will that really be by today's standards (we're also ignoring any employer contribution)?

If we reverse apply it (looking at those who retired today), they would have started in 1967 (at age 21), and back then, there weren't a whole lot of 21 year olds putting $16,500 in a 401k (I'm not sure what the annual limit was back then).

Inflation could be so bad in 60 years that anyone below $250,000 is below the poverty line! Well maybe not that bad...
askbob
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4/15/2011 11:24:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/15/2011 11:14:07 AM, OreEle wrote:

Yeah. A lot of 21 year-olds have an extra $16,500 each year to put in their 401k.

I do, and i'm working an average finance job that will pay 60k in chicago. I'm 21 and maxing out my 401k

Employee contributions will cancel out inflation.
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kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
innomen
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4/18/2011 2:55:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Back to the OP. Should there be any consideration on the amount you take from the system that your taxes support in how much you pay? Is it fair that i pay for the education of children that are not my own, in fact i probably take the least from government sponsored systems than most any demographic. Is it fair that i pay more than most every other demographic? Fair is an interesting word, and it seems a highly subjective word in these discussions.
Ore_Ele
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4/18/2011 3:07:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/18/2011 2:55:29 PM, innomen wrote:
Back to the OP. Should there be any consideration on the amount you take from the system that your taxes support in how much you pay?

No, because then it ceases to become a group effort, but an individual effort. There should be protections that ensure that individuals are not milking the system (which raises the taxes for everyone), but not that "you use more, so you pay more." Since that kind of defeats the purpose. I mean, many of the programs are for those that don't make much money. So we can't really say "here is your handout for being poor, oh, and we are now going to tax you more because of it."

Is it fair that i pay for the education of children that are not my own,

Yes, the education of our children is ultimately benefitial to the entire society and economy (assuming the education is done properly, again, there should be controls to ensure that it is done properly). As it benefits the economy as a whole, it benefits society as a whole, and so you. The better the economy, the less crime (meaning less taxes for arresting and confining), the less unemployed and low income (meaning less people taking hand-outs, and more people paying into the tax system, so less taxes all around).

in fact i probably take the least from government sponsored systems than most any demographic. Is it fair that i pay more than most every other demographic? Fair is an interesting word, and it seems a highly subjective word in these discussions.

"fair" is subjective, because it is based on what one "diserves" and we all have disagreements on that.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
innomen
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4/18/2011 3:11:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/18/2011 3:07:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 2:55:29 PM, innomen wrote:
Back to the OP. Should there be any consideration on the amount you take from the system that your taxes support in how much you pay?

No, because then it ceases to become a group effort, but an individual effort. There should be protections that ensure that individuals are not milking the system (which raises the taxes for everyone), but not that "you use more, so you pay more." Since that kind of defeats the purpose. I mean, many of the programs are for those that don't make much money. So we can't really say "here is your handout for being poor, oh, and we are now going to tax you more because of it."

Is it fair that i pay for the education of children that are not my own,

Yes, the education of our children is ultimately benefitial to the entire society and economy (assuming the education is done properly, again, there should be controls to ensure that it is done properly). As it benefits the economy as a whole, it benefits society as a whole, and so you. The better the economy, the less crime (meaning less taxes for arresting and confining), the less unemployed and low income (meaning less people taking hand-outs, and more people paying into the tax system, so less taxes all around).

in fact i probably take the least from government sponsored systems than most any demographic. Is it fair that i pay more than most every other demographic? Fair is an interesting word, and it seems a highly subjective word in these discussions.

"fair" is subjective, because it is based on what one "diserves" and we all have disagreements on that.

So your fair in this case is really an emotional appeal, and based on a moral stance, but in reality it isn't fair. You're just saying, life isn't fair for people, and you have to make it more fair for them, by us making it less fair for you. I'd prefer an honest admission that, yeah it isn't fair for you innomen, suck it up.
Ore_Ele
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4/18/2011 3:33:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/18/2011 3:11:32 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:07:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 2:55:29 PM, innomen wrote:
Back to the OP. Should there be any consideration on the amount you take from the system that your taxes support in how much you pay?

No, because then it ceases to become a group effort, but an individual effort. There should be protections that ensure that individuals are not milking the system (which raises the taxes for everyone), but not that "you use more, so you pay more." Since that kind of defeats the purpose. I mean, many of the programs are for those that don't make much money. So we can't really say "here is your handout for being poor, oh, and we are now going to tax you more because of it."

Is it fair that i pay for the education of children that are not my own,

Yes, the education of our children is ultimately benefitial to the entire society and economy (assuming the education is done properly, again, there should be controls to ensure that it is done properly). As it benefits the economy as a whole, it benefits society as a whole, and so you. The better the economy, the less crime (meaning less taxes for arresting and confining), the less unemployed and low income (meaning less people taking hand-outs, and more people paying into the tax system, so less taxes all around).

in fact i probably take the least from government sponsored systems than most any demographic. Is it fair that i pay more than most every other demographic? Fair is an interesting word, and it seems a highly subjective word in these discussions.

"fair" is subjective, because it is based on what one "diserves" and we all have disagreements on that.

So your fair in this case is really an emotional appeal, and based on a moral stance, but in reality it isn't fair. You're just saying, life isn't fair for people, and you have to make it more fair for them, by us making it less fair for you.

If you want to look at it from a purely "me" perspective, than yes. I prefer to act on what is best for everyone, not for individuals.

I'd prefer an honest admission that, yeah it isn't fair for you innomen, suck it up.

I actually say that, "yes, it isn't fair for you innomen, but we'll try to make it as fair as possible for everyone, including you."

You should know that I do support somethings that will be more fair for you, and somethings that won't be more fair for you.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
innomen
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4/18/2011 4:18:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/18/2011 3:33:26 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:11:32 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:07:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 2:55:29 PM, innomen wrote:
Back to the OP. Should there be any consideration on the amount you take from the system that your taxes support in how much you pay?

No, because then it ceases to become a group effort, but an individual effort. There should be protections that ensure that individuals are not milking the system (which raises the taxes for everyone), but not that "you use more, so you pay more." Since that kind of defeats the purpose. I mean, many of the programs are for those that don't make much money. So we can't really say "here is your handout for being poor, oh, and we are now going to tax you more because of it."

Is it fair that i pay for the education of children that are not my own,

Yes, the education of our children is ultimately benefitial to the entire society and economy (assuming the education is done properly, again, there should be controls to ensure that it is done properly). As it benefits the economy as a whole, it benefits society as a whole, and so you. The better the economy, the less crime (meaning less taxes for arresting and confining), the less unemployed and low income (meaning less people taking hand-outs, and more people paying into the tax system, so less taxes all around).

in fact i probably take the least from government sponsored systems than most any demographic. Is it fair that i pay more than most every other demographic? Fair is an interesting word, and it seems a highly subjective word in these discussions.

"fair" is subjective, because it is based on what one "diserves" and we all have disagreements on that.

So your fair in this case is really an emotional appeal, and based on a moral stance, but in reality it isn't fair. You're just saying, life isn't fair for people, and you have to make it more fair for them, by us making it less fair for you.

If you want to look at it from a purely "me" perspective, than yes. I prefer to act on what is best for everyone, not for individuals.

I think that's not true at all. I think you're going on a "You" perspective, in that you must pay for them (on it being best for everyone is debatable). It's also not fair that you disregard the individual, and morally a tricky spot to be in when you start sacrificing the few or the individual for the many.

I'd prefer an honest admission that, yeah it isn't fair for you innomen, suck it up.

I actually say that, "yes, it isn't fair for you innomen, but we'll try to make it as fair as possible for everyone, including you."

You should know that I do support somethings that will be more fair for you, and somethings that won't be more fair for you.

And you should know that i support everything that is fair for you, and everything that is fair for me. Of course what i consider fair is probably different than what you consider fair.
lewis20
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4/18/2011 4:18:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
there are now 72,536 pages of federal tax code rules, regulations, and IRS rulings.
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org...
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Ore_Ele
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4/18/2011 4:31:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/18/2011 4:18:01 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:33:26 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:11:32 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:07:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 2:55:29 PM, innomen wrote:
Back to the OP. Should there be any consideration on the amount you take from the system that your taxes support in how much you pay?

No, because then it ceases to become a group effort, but an individual effort. There should be protections that ensure that individuals are not milking the system (which raises the taxes for everyone), but not that "you use more, so you pay more." Since that kind of defeats the purpose. I mean, many of the programs are for those that don't make much money. So we can't really say "here is your handout for being poor, oh, and we are now going to tax you more because of it."

Is it fair that i pay for the education of children that are not my own,

Yes, the education of our children is ultimately benefitial to the entire society and economy (assuming the education is done properly, again, there should be controls to ensure that it is done properly). As it benefits the economy as a whole, it benefits society as a whole, and so you. The better the economy, the less crime (meaning less taxes for arresting and confining), the less unemployed and low income (meaning less people taking hand-outs, and more people paying into the tax system, so less taxes all around).

in fact i probably take the least from government sponsored systems than most any demographic. Is it fair that i pay more than most every other demographic? Fair is an interesting word, and it seems a highly subjective word in these discussions.

"fair" is subjective, because it is based on what one "diserves" and we all have disagreements on that.

So your fair in this case is really an emotional appeal, and based on a moral stance, but in reality it isn't fair. You're just saying, life isn't fair for people, and you have to make it more fair for them, by us making it less fair for you.

If you want to look at it from a purely "me" perspective, than yes. I prefer to act on what is best for everyone, not for individuals.

I think that's not true at all. I think you're going on a "You" perspective, in that you must pay for them (on it being best for everyone is debatable). It's also not fair that you disregard the individual, and morally a tricky spot to be in when you start sacrificing the few or the individual for the many.

I wouldn't say that I "disregard" the individual, only that the effects are weighed and measured, and determined that the needs of society (in that particular case) outweigh the needs of the individual. That really depends on the policy at hand. In some policies, I do feel that effects of individuals are greater than the benefit that society would receive, and so not support that particular policy.


I'd prefer an honest admission that, yeah it isn't fair for you innomen, suck it up.

I actually say that, "yes, it isn't fair for you innomen, but we'll try to make it as fair as possible for everyone, including you."

You should know that I do support somethings that will be more fair for you, and somethings that won't be more fair for you.

And you should know that i support everything that is fair for you, and everything that is fair for me. Of course what i consider fair is probably different than what you consider fair.

of course, that is by your view of "fair." If we go by my view of "fair" then I'd be in the same boat that you are in under my view of "fair."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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4/18/2011 4:37:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/18/2011 4:31:01 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 4:18:01 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:33:26 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:11:32 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/18/2011 3:07:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/18/2011 2:55:29 PM, innomen wrote:
Back to the OP. Should there be any consideration on the amount you take from the system that your taxes support in how much you pay?

No, because then it ceases to become a group effort, but an individual effort. There should be protections that ensure that individuals are not milking the system (which raises the taxes for everyone), but not that "you use more, so you pay more." Since that kind of defeats the purpose. I mean, many of the programs are for those that don't make much money. So we can't really say "here is your handout for being poor, oh, and we are now going to tax you more because of it."

Is it fair that i pay for the education of children that are not my own,

Yes, the education of our children is ultimately benefitial to the entire society and economy (assuming the education is done properly, again, there should be controls to ensure that it is done properly). As it benefits the economy as a whole, it benefits society as a whole, and so you. The better the economy, the less crime (meaning less taxes for arresting and confining), the less unemployed and low income (meaning less people taking hand-outs, and more people paying into the tax system, so less taxes all around).

in fact i probably take the least from government sponsored systems than most any demographic. Is it fair that i pay more than most every other demographic? Fair is an interesting word, and it seems a highly subjective word in these discussions.

"fair" is subjective, because it is based on what one "diserves" and we all have disagreements on that.

So your fair in this case is really an emotional appeal, and based on a moral stance, but in reality it isn't fair. You're just saying, life isn't fair for people, and you have to make it more fair for them, by us making it less fair for you.

If you want to look at it from a purely "me" perspective, than yes. I prefer to act on what is best for everyone, not for individuals.

I think that's not true at all. I think you're going on a "You" perspective, in that you must pay for them (on it being best for everyone is debatable). It's also not fair that you disregard the individual, and morally a tricky spot to be in when you start sacrificing the few or the individual for the many.

I wouldn't say that I "disregard" the individual, only that the effects are weighed and measured, and determined that the needs of society (in that particular case) outweigh the needs of the individual. That really depends on the policy at hand. In some policies, I do feel that effects of individuals are greater than the benefit that society would receive, and so not support that particular policy.



I'd prefer an honest admission that, yeah it isn't fair for you innomen, suck it up.

I actually say that, "yes, it isn't fair for you innomen, but we'll try to make it as fair as possible for everyone, including you."

You should know that I do support somethings that will be more fair for you, and somethings that won't be more fair for you.

And you should know that i support everything that is fair for you, and everything that is fair for me. Of course what i consider fair is probably different than what you consider fair.

of course, that is by your view of "fair." If we go by my view of "fair" then I'd be in the same boat that you are in under my view of "fair."
If we go by your view of fair we aren't really being honest then are we ;-).
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/18/2011 4:44:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/18/2011 4:37:02 PM, innomen wrote:
At 4/18/2011 4:31:01 PM, OreEle wrote:
of course, that is by your view of "fair." If we go by my view of "fair" then I'd be in the same boat that you are in under my view of "fair."
If we go by your view of fair we aren't really being honest then are we ;-).

How would one view of "fair" be more honest than another? I'm actually being honest in that my view of fair may not be your view of fair. So when I say "it is not completely fair to you," I'm not speaking from my view of fair, but recognizing your view of fair.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/18/2011 4:49:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 6:58:28 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
A Capitalistic one.

*facepalm*

Capitalism =/= Free Market. Laissez-faire capitalism is not the only kind. There's oligarchical capitalism, mercantalism, state capitalism, neo-capitalism, socio-capitalism, etc. Right now I suppose you'd say we have "crony capitalism" but it's capitalism nonetheless... so why are you face palming? He didn't make a mistake. There is no precise definition of capitalism; at best you can say it refers to privately owned means of production which undoubtedly exists in the United States.
President of DDO