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capitalism pwned

Rob1_Billion
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6/5/2011 1:37:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.wimp.com...

At the end, he leaves his conclusion sort of fuzzy, and shows the monopoly jail space... do you think he is intending to say that financiers should be jailed? At any rate, this is very well laid out.
kfc
askbob
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6/5/2011 1:43:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
lmao

Of course none of the real reasons for the crash are included as the reason.
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askbob
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6/5/2011 1:45:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
hahaha also lmao @ lack of refutation of competitive advantage.
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LaissezFaire
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6/5/2011 1:45:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.debate.org...
Should we subsidize education?
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http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
askbob
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6/5/2011 1:46:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
wage repression HAHAHAHAHAHAHA even in china lmao
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kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
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askbob
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6/5/2011 1:50:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
haha oh because we don't have people in factories we're screwed. lmao
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askbob
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6/5/2011 1:50:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
lol that was a terrible refutation of capitalism.
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askbob
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6/5/2011 1:54:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
ignores the fact that most americans own corporations in their 401ks, pension plans, etc. Corporations are not just owned by 2 or 3 people.
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Grape
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6/5/2011 1:57:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"How come you didn't see this coming?"

Except Austrian economists did predict the financial crisis that resulted from the collapse of the housing bubble.

http://www.lewrockwell.com...
askbob
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6/5/2011 2:08:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 1:57:16 PM, Grape wrote:
"How come you didn't see this coming?"

Except Austrian economists did predict the financial crisis that resulted from the collapse of the housing bubble.

Which is why they all shorted the market and are multi-millionaires...oh wait.
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kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
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LaissezFaire
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6/5/2011 2:12:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 2:08:13 PM, askbob wrote:
At 6/5/2011 1:57:16 PM, Grape wrote:
"How come you didn't see this coming?"

Except Austrian economists did predict the financial crisis that resulted from the collapse of the housing bubble.

Which is why they all shorted the market and are multi-millionaires...oh wait.

Some of them did, and are. Just knowing the housing market was a bubble isn't enough to make money--you'd also have to know when it was going to crash. They all clearly did predict the bubble--you can read the links yourself.
Should we subsidize education?
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
LaissezFaire
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6/5/2011 2:18:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 2:12:51 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/5/2011 2:08:13 PM, askbob wrote:
At 6/5/2011 1:57:16 PM, Grape wrote:
"How come you didn't see this coming?"

Except Austrian economists did predict the financial crisis that resulted from the collapse of the housing bubble.

Which is why they all shorted the market and are multi-millionaires...oh wait.

Some of them did, and are. Just knowing the housing market was a bubble isn't enough to make money--you'd also have to know when it was going to crash. They all clearly did predict the bubble--you can read the links yourself.

You also didn't see any Austrians saying the housing market was fine, and that there wasn't a bubble, like, say, Ben Bernanke did.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
askbob
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6/5/2011 3:01:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 2:12:51 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/5/2011 2:08:13 PM, askbob wrote:
At 6/5/2011 1:57:16 PM, Grape wrote:
"How come you didn't see this coming?"

Except Austrian economists did predict the financial crisis that resulted from the collapse of the housing bubble.

Which is why they all shorted the market and are multi-millionaires...oh wait.

Some of them did, and are. Just knowing the housing market was a bubble isn't enough to make money--you'd also have to know when it was going to crash. They all clearly did predict the bubble--you can read the links yourself.

Shows you know absolutely nothing about investing. You don't have to know when it's going to crash if you're shorting something. They could have easily shorted an ETF of the entire market for millions of dollars. Waited until it crashed and sold and they would have been multi-millionaires.

The fact is they're not and they didn't predict the crash.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
LaissezFaire
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6/5/2011 3:06:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 3:01:07 PM, askbob wrote:
At 6/5/2011 2:12:51 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/5/2011 2:08:13 PM, askbob wrote:
At 6/5/2011 1:57:16 PM, Grape wrote:
"How come you didn't see this coming?"

Except Austrian economists did predict the financial crisis that resulted from the collapse of the housing bubble.

Which is why they all shorted the market and are multi-millionaires...oh wait.

Some of them did, and are. Just knowing the housing market was a bubble isn't enough to make money--you'd also have to know when it was going to crash. They all clearly did predict the bubble--you can read the links yourself.

Shows you know absolutely nothing about investing. You don't have to know when it's going to crash if you're shorting something. They could have easily shorted an ETF of the entire market for millions of dollars. Waited until it crashed and sold and they would have been multi-millionaires.

The fact is they're not and they didn't predict the crash.

Maybe they don't know anything about investing either, I don't know. But you can't say they didn't predict the crash. How exactly do you explain THE ARTICLES PUBLISHED WHERE THEY SAID THERE WAS A HOUSING BUBBLE? You can read them yourself--click the links in Grape's link! Look at http://mises.org... for example. July, 2004.
Should we subsidize education?
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http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
askbob
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6/5/2011 3:09:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 3:06:45 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Maybe they don't know anything about investing either, I don't know. B
Lol then they're a sad sort of economists if they don't know how to do sorting or use any sort of resource on how to capitalize on their predictions.

But you can't say they didn't predict the crash. How exactly do you explain THE ARTICLES PUBLISHED WHERE THEY SAID THERE WAS A HOUSING BUBBLE?

Ever heard of the saying putting your money where your mouth is? There also was no bubble in 2004 so the jokes on them. I already explained the reason why the bubble occurred and none of you has an intelligent rebuttal.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
askbob
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6/5/2011 3:10:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
invest not sorting i dont know why i said sorting
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kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
LaissezFaire
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6/5/2011 3:20:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 3:09:24 PM, askbob wrote:
At 6/5/2011 3:06:45 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Maybe they don't know anything about investing either, I don't know. B
Lol then they're a sad sort of economists if they don't know how to do sorting or use any sort of resource on how to capitalize on their predictions.
And yet, they still managed to published articles saying that the housing market was unsustainable and was going to crash, and were correct, while the people you trust, like Ben Bernanke, said the opposite and were wrong. And maybe they did make money on their predictions. Some, like Rogers and Schiff, I know did, because they publicly discuss their investments and investment advice. Others don't discuss their personal finances publicly--how do you know they didn't short the market?

But you can't say they didn't predict the crash. How exactly do you explain THE ARTICLES PUBLISHED WHERE THEY SAID THERE WAS A HOUSING BUBBLE?

Ever heard of the saying putting your money where your mouth is?
Still doesn't explain how they correctly predicted the housing crash.
There also was no bubble in 2004 so the jokes on them.
Yes there was. The housing market was starting to get larger than it normally would be, and it's growth would prove unsustainable. Even if you don't count 2004 as a bubble, for whatever reason, how do you explain them predicting the housing CRASH in a few years? If you seriously think they didn't predict the crash, you're downright retarded. You can read their own words--they said the housing market was going to crash, while Keynesians didn't. And Keynesians said the market was fine and wouldn't crash, while no Austrians said that.
I already explained the reason why the bubble occurred and none of you has an intelligent rebuttal.
No, you didn't, and yes, I do. From the other thread:

At 5/31/2011 11:52:32 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
And I didn't rebut your points because they aren't a real explanation. You can't just explain how *one* recession happened--what about all the others? They've been going on for a long time--your AIG theory doesn't work for the ones that happened before AIG.

At 6/1/2011 12:03:03 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Furthermore, all the things you blame AIG and others for doing wouldn't have been possible without the Federal Reserve. Without the Fed, the surge in the housing market would have driven up interest rates sky-high, cutting the boom short. Only when credit was artificially expanded could the boom go on.
Should we subsidize education?
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http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
askbob
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6/5/2011 3:41:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 3:20:17 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
How do you know they didn't short the market?
Clearly they'd use it as evidence that they were correct if they had. But they don't.

But you can't say they didn't predict the crash. How exactly do you explain THE ARTICLES PUBLISHED WHERE THEY SAID THERE WAS A HOUSING BUBBLE?

Ever heard of the saying putting your money where your mouth is?
Still doesn't explain how they correctly predicted the housing crash.

I can say that the housing market will crash again in the future. If it crashes 9 or 10 years later I can shout SEE I WAS RIGHT ALL MY THEORIES ARE NOW CORRECT! lol you have to call it when it happens not 4 years before it has even begun.
There also was no bubble in 2004 so the jokes on them.
Yes there was. The housing market was starting to get larger than it normally would be, and it's growth would prove unsustainable.

Larger than it normally would be? Lol wtf is normal?

Even if you don't count 2004 as a bubble, for whatever reason, how do you explain them predicting the housing CRASH in a few years?

Incorrect predictions based off of the government pushing for housing.

If you seriously think they didn't predict the crash, you're downright retarded.

Oh so now I'm the one that's retarded? The only one with an intelligible reason for the crash and you who is clutching to your mises articles and being logically destroyed due to your lack of knowledge surrounding the financial crisis? Sure I'm retarded, you're just too smart for me shouting GUVVANMENT IS TEH REASON without having a coherent explanation

You can read their own words--they said the housing market was going to crash,

Sure let me make another prediction: In four years the economy will crash due to consumer spending.

I don't read anything in their words about CDS, insuring them, the lack of checks and balances between the ibankers and the credit rating agencies.

If you can't give a reason why something will happen, you have no prediction.

I already explained the reason why the bubble occurred and none of you has an intelligent rebuttal.
No, you didn't, and yes, I do. From the other thread:

At 5/31/2011 11:52:32 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
And I didn't rebut your points because they aren't a real explanation.

ahh so it's not just because you have no intelligent response to them.

You can't just explain how *one* recession happened--

Oh?

what about all the others? They've been going on for a long time--your AIG theory doesn't work for the ones that happened before AIG.

You want me to give you a detailed account of all the other recessions otherwise you're right lmao? Seriously? I can sum up the .com crash for you. People drastically overvalued IPOs from Tech companies because they had no benchmark to value companies that made money via the internet. Therefore the share prices were drastically inflated. When it turned out that the ad revenue was less than hoped for then a ton of overvalued companies went under as people sold them. Thus the recession.

I'm not going through every single one.


At 6/1/2011 12:03:03 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Furthermore, all the things you blame AIG and others for doing wouldn't have been possible without the Federal Reserve. Without the Fed, the surge in the housing market would have driven up interest rates sky-high, cutting the boom short. Only when credit was artificially expanded could the boom go on.

Are you shitting me? Giving mortages to risky individuals would have been equally as possible regardless of the banks rates on those mortages. Banks were offloading the risk on investors, investors offloading it onto AIG. Higher rates would only have attracted more capital to the CDS which would have lowered rates.

Rates were already high throughout 2006, 2007, 2008.

The fed can only sway interest rates, it can't move them entirely.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
LaissezFaire
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6/5/2011 4:19:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 3:41:58 PM, askbob wrote:
At 6/5/2011 3:20:17 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
How do you know they didn't short the market?
Clearly they'd use it as evidence that they were correct if they had. But they don't.
Maybe they think their personal finances are nobody else's business. Maybe they're evading taxes on their gains, and don't want to attract the IRS's attention. Maybe they just think that saying the housing market would crash in articles they published, and then that happening, would be enough to prove they were correct.

But you can't say they didn't predict the crash. How exactly do you explain THE ARTICLES PUBLISHED WHERE THEY SAID THERE WAS A HOUSING BUBBLE?

Ever heard of the saying putting your money where your mouth is?
Still doesn't explain how they correctly predicted the housing crash.

I can say that the housing market will crash again in the future. If it crashes 9 or 10 years later I can shout SEE I WAS RIGHT ALL MY THEORIES ARE NOW CORRECT! lol you have to call it when it happens not 4 years before it has even begun.
There also was no bubble in 2004 so the jokes on them.
Yes there was. The housing market was starting to get larger than it normally would be, and it's growth would prove unsustainable.

Larger than it normally would be? Lol wtf is normal?
People were buying property as an investment, many were leaving their regular jobs to "flip" houses for profit. During the bubble, housing construction and home vacancy rates rose together, because everyone was buying houses in order to wait for prices to go up, and then sell them, rather than to live in them. "Normal" would be people buying houses for homes.

Even if you don't count 2004 as a bubble, for whatever reason, how do you explain them predicting the housing CRASH in a few years?

Incorrect predictions based off of the government pushing for housing.
Incorrect? The crash happened.
If you seriously think they didn't predict the crash, you're downright retarded.

Oh so now I'm the one that's retarded? The only one with an intelligible reason for the crash and you who is clutching to your mises articles and being logically destroyed due to your lack of knowledge surrounding the financial crisis? Sure I'm retarded, you're just too smart for me shouting GUVVANMENT IS TEH REASON without having a coherent explanation
I do have an explanation. http://www.debate.org... You just never had time to respond to it.

You can read their own words--they said the housing market was going to crash,

Sure let me make another prediction: In four years the economy will crash due to consumer spending.

I don't read anything in their words about CDS, insuring them, the lack of checks and balances between the ibankers and the credit rating agencies.

If you can't give a reason why something will happen, you have no prediction.
They did have a reason, it was just different than your reason. They said housing was a bubble because the Fed was artificially inflating the market. They didn't include the other parts because they aren't as important--bubbles happen without any of those things, so they aren't the deciding factors.
I already explained the reason why the bubble occurred and none of you has an intelligent rebuttal.
No, you didn't, and yes, I do. From the other thread:

At 5/31/2011 11:52:32 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
And I didn't rebut your points because they aren't a real explanation.

ahh so it's not just because you have no intelligent response to them.

You can't just explain how *one* recession happened--

Oh?

what about all the others? They've been going on for a long time--your AIG theory doesn't work for the ones that happened before AIG.

You want me to give you a detailed account of all the other recessions otherwise you're right lmao? Seriously? I can sum up the .com crash for you. People drastically overvalued IPOs from Tech companies because they had no benchmark to value companies that made money via the internet. Therefore the share prices were drastically inflated. When it turned out that the ad revenue was less than hoped for then a ton of overvalued companies went under as people sold them. Thus the recession.

I'm not going through every single one.
I didn't say you should go through every single recession seperately, I said you should explain what causes the boom-bust cycle in general.


At 6/1/2011 12:03:03 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Furthermore, all the things you blame AIG and others for doing wouldn't have been possible without the Federal Reserve. Without the Fed, the surge in the housing market would have driven up interest rates sky-high, cutting the boom short. Only when credit was artificially expanded could the boom go on.

Are you shitting me? Giving mortages to risky individuals would have been equally as possible regardless of the banks rates on those mortages. Banks were offloading the risk on investors, investors offloading it onto AIG. Higher rates would only have attracted more capital to the CDS which would have lowered rates.

Rates were already high throughout 2006, 2007, 2008.

The fed can only sway interest rates, it can't move them entirely.

Banks could have given mortgages to risky individuals, but the problem was more than that. There was a huge diversion of labor and resources to the housing market, to build houses people couldn't afford. This diversion shouldn't have been profitable--the only way it could have been is if there was an artificial infusion of money to keep up demand.

Is your position that the Fed created a lot of new money, gave it to the banks, and then, in an unrelated matter, the banks invested a lot of money in an unsustainable bubble? What happens to money the Fed injects into the economy, then?
Should we subsidize education?
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http://lewrockwell.com...

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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
darkkermit
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6/5/2011 6:33:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 1:51:59 PM, quarterexchange wrote:



I subscribe to this guy.

You subscribe to HowTheWorldWorks? I do too. He's awesome!
Open borders debate:
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Danielle
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6/7/2011 2:42:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 3:09:24 PM, askbob wrote:
I already explained the reason why the bubble occurred and none of you has an intelligent rebuttal.

I know this wasn't directed at me but can you link me to where you did?
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Danielle
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6/7/2011 2:46:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/5/2011 2:12:51 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
They all clearly did predict the bubble--you can read the links yourself.

I don't understand why this is supposed to be an accomplishment considering capitalism practically mandates bubbles and collapses. Anti-capitalists predicted the exact same thing in their criticism.
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askbob
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6/7/2011 5:20:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 2:42:41 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/5/2011 3:09:24 PM, askbob wrote:
I already explained the reason why the bubble occurred and none of you has an intelligent rebuttal.

I know this wasn't directed at me but can you link me to where you did?

http://www.debate.org...
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Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
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6/7/2011 7:45:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Thanks for posting. I took a class about the financial crisis of 08 which is why I asked. Your assessment of AIG is accurate; it's a shame an Austrian didn't respond to whatever you were asking them.

At 5/31/2011 11:33:44 PM, askbob wrote:
Lol hardly. It was caused by Moodys and S&P lying in bed with the i-bankers and rating shitty mortgages AAA so that AIG would ensure the CDS's that the mortages were based on. AIG needs to do its own research before ensuring complex financial vehicles and then there would be no incentive to buy junk ones and bear no risk of default.

But... the private sector is perfect...

If AIG did it's own damn research it would have in no way insured those CD's and therefore no one would have bought them which would have prevented the banks from giving the mortgages because they sure as hell weren't taking the default risk.

This reminds me of when all the libertarians were complaining about the FDA, and said in its place a private version of the FDA would emerge that would let people know if products were safe or not. Some leftists asked what would stop those companies from being paid off by the product companies they were rating, and pointed out that individuals cannot realistically determine the safety of most things (i.e. drugs) on their own in most cases making these rating companies extremely valuable/necessary. Well right here we have a real life example of exactly what would happen in that scenario: the company that's supposed to make sure things are safe "investments" (products) would fvcking LIE to profit. Now I'm not saying this type of thing is automatically solved when the State gets involved. I'm saying it's yet another problem with the allegedly flawless system of laissez faire capitalism.

So in the end it was one huge business removing a default risk and not having the money to back its insured goods that caused the problem, not the government, not Freddie Mac, not Fannie Mae, not the Fed, but AIG.

AIG is definitely among the biggest if not THE biggest culprit, but you're kidding yourself if you think the rest have nothing to do with it. Fannie and Freddie bought bad mortgages from lenders meaning they had a heavy hand in the problem. They also lobbied aggressively in Washington to all of their Congressman friends allowing them to get away with this to begin with, which is where the problematic government comes in... Not to mention the government also forced tax payers to endure the burden for sh!tty companies like Countrywide selling bad loans to Freddie and Fannie. And the Fed is just a whole other sh!t show that I don't think needs any explanation of its heinousness.
President of DDO