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Degree of Socialization

FREEDO
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10/11/2011 12:04:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Most people are not pure Socialists and most people not pure Capitalists. So my question is, just how much do you think an economy should be socialized? Can you give me a specific list of all services you think should be socialized?
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fnord
FREEDO
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10/11/2011 12:15:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Here are the current things America has socialized:

Security. (Otherwise it would be Ancap)
Emergency services.
Education. (Semi. Only elementary education.)
Communication. (Semi. Through Post Office and public news stations.)
Transportation. (Semi. Through public roads)
Health care. (Semi. Through Medicare and Medicaid.)

I would AT LEAST have all the semi socialized things expanded. College education, phone signal, public transit and universal health care should be a right.
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fnord
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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10/11/2011 12:28:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 12:15:09 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Here are the current things America has socialized:

Security. (Otherwise it would be Ancap)
Yes
Emergency services.
Yes
Education. (Semi. Only elementary education.)
At least some Public Universities should be free. Private Universities must compete through market forces.
Communication. (Semi. Through Post Office and public news stations.)
Not at all.
Transportation. (Semi. Through public roads)
Free buses would be nice but private buses should run as well, and compete with themselves and the government to provide better services.
Health care. (Semi. Through Medicare and Medicaid.)
Employment-based insurance should be abolished.

I would AT LEAST have all the semi socialized things expanded. College education, phone signal, public transit and universal health care should be a right.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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10/11/2011 12:33:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It depends on transaction costs, how much efficiency is needed, and the degree of market shares some services have.

For example, it makes sense to make parks public since there is a transaction cost associated with 'privatization' every time wants to use the park.

Some companies are natural monopolies, such as electrical grids so these should be regulated.

R&D can not effectively internalize its cost at an optimal level, so this should be socialized.

Some have positive exteranlities associated with it. Disease is a negative externality, so disease prevention should be subsidized.

Other then that, the market is a good way to increase efficiency and create better products, so most goods and services should be privatized.

You have to put stuff into perspective though and know what the exteranalities, trasaction costs, and degree of market control such things are associated with.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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10/11/2011 12:37:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Do you count user fee govt as "socialized?" I'm not in favor of govt ownership of all the means of production of security (e.g. guns), just a govt monopoly on actual provision of retaliatory force. The govt CAN legitimately own things like roads, but ideally I don't think it's well advised for it to do so other than a few roads built in strategic locations to keep the military properly supplied and whatnot. It can have academies for police, military, and civil servants, but should not get involved in general education and definitely not 0 price general education.

As for emergency services... that's kind of a maybe, but definitely still user-fee subscription if so.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
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10/11/2011 1:13:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It should be noted that many emergency services are already privatized. Private ambulances can be contracted to work for the government. This system is preferable to public ambulances.

I'm not sure If it is true that government-schools are a positive externalities. It seems as If people can easily learn how to read and write without them at the fraction of the cost. It seems that a rational individual or parent will make that decision.

I think a major problem with the education system is the lack of human-capital contracts. Human-capital contracts will reduce individual risk. Also we need to go back to the days of bondage slavery :). I don't see why it is illegal to put your house up as collateral, but not your body.
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darkkermit
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10/11/2011 2:20:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Actually, if done properly education most likely definitely has positive externalities to it, so it should be subsidized.
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FREEDO
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10/11/2011 2:26:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 1:13:24 AM, darkkermit wrote:
It should be noted that many emergency services are already privatized. Private ambulances can be contracted to work for the government. This system is preferable to public ambulances.

I'm not sure If it is true that government-schools are a positive externalities. It seems as If people can easily learn how to read and write without them at the fraction of the cost. It seems that a rational individual or parent will make that decision.

I think a major problem with the education system is the lack of human-capital contracts. Human-capital contracts will reduce individual risk. Also we need to go back to the days of bondage slavery :). I don't see why it is illegal to put your house up as collateral, but not your body.

It is legal, otherwise we wouldn't sell ourselves in the market place.
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fnord
FREEDO
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10/11/2011 2:27:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 12:37:02 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Do you count user fee govt as "socialized?"

Yes.
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fnord
darkkermit
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10/11/2011 5:15:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 2:26:07 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/11/2011 1:13:24 AM, darkkermit wrote:
It should be noted that many emergency services are already privatized. Private ambulances can be contracted to work for the government. This system is preferable to public ambulances.

I'm not sure If it is true that government-schools are a positive externalities. It seems as If people can easily learn how to read and write without them at the fraction of the cost. It seems that a rational individual or parent will make that decision.

I think a major problem with the education system is the lack of human-capital contracts. Human-capital contracts will reduce individual risk. Also we need to go back to the days of bondage slavery :). I don't see why it is illegal to put your house up as collateral, but not your body.

It is legal, otherwise we wouldn't sell ourselves in the market place.

It's legal to sell yourself for compensation. It is illegal to promise to sell yourself without compensation if you fail to pay a debt.
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kogline
Posts: 134
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10/11/2011 5:18:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 12:15:09 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Here are the current things America has socialized:

Security. (Otherwise it would be Ancap)
Emergency services.
Education. (Semi. Only elementary education.)
Communication. (Semi. Through Post Office and public news stations.)
Transportation. (Semi. Through public roads)
Health care. (Semi. Through Medicare and Medicaid.)

I would AT LEAST have all the semi socialized things expanded. College education, phone signal, public transit and universal health care should be a right.

freedo, do you want college to be something anyone can walk into and start taking classes no questions asked, and never see a bill? i'm not as economically libertarian as alot of the regulars here but i think college education should be more meritocratic. have the colleges charge full price to keep them running but then give full scholarships to the top X%(10?15?) of students in pre-college education.

everyone can sign up but only those that performed well previously will be subsidized.

plus students that underperform lose their subsidy.

^this is just random details that came to mind while writing, the basic point is that there should be some meritocratic restrictions on college education. i dont think it is something everyone should have access to for free.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
kogline
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10/11/2011 5:31:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
and i didn't answer your original question because i'm still not sure where i stand on economic issues. socially i'm very libertarian, but i think i'm more state capitalist or maybe market socialist on economic issues.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
jimtimmy
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10/11/2011 4:32:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 12:15:09 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Here are the current things America has socialized:

Security. (Otherwise it would be Ancap)
Emergency services.
Education. (Semi. Only elementary education.)
Communication. (Semi. Through Post Office and public news stations.)
Transportation. (Semi. Through public roads)
Health care. (Semi. Through Medicare and Medicaid.)

I would AT LEAST have all the semi socialized things expanded. College education, phone signal, public transit and universal health care should be a right

privatize everything...

And, how can a phone signal be a right?
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/11/2011 5:29:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 5:18:33 AM, kogline wrote:
At 10/11/2011 12:15:09 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Here are the current things America has socialized:

Security. (Otherwise it would be Ancap)
Emergency services.
Education. (Semi. Only elementary education.)
Communication. (Semi. Through Post Office and public news stations.)
Transportation. (Semi. Through public roads)
Health care. (Semi. Through Medicare and Medicaid.)

I would AT LEAST have all the semi socialized things expanded. College education, phone signal, public transit and universal health care should be a right.


freedo, do you want college to be something anyone can walk into and start taking classes no questions asked, and never see a bill? i'm not as economically libertarian as alot of the regulars here but i think college education should be more meritocratic. have the colleges charge full price to keep them running but then give full scholarships to the top X%(10?15?) of students in pre-college education.

everyone can sign up but only those that performed well previously will be subsidized.

plus students that underperform lose their subsidy.

^this is just random details that came to mind while writing, the basic point is that there should be some meritocratic restrictions on college education. i dont think it is something everyone should have access to for free.

Yes, I do. There are many people who cannot afford college and even more who will attempt to afford it by getting into huge debt that will trouble them for the rest of their life. This makes the conditions that you are born into, which are no fault of your own, a huge indicator of how successful you will be allowed to become.

There are several European countries that have free college education and they all have a much better educated population than the US.
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fnord
FREEDO
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10/11/2011 5:32:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 4:32:21 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 10/11/2011 12:15:09 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Here are the current things America has socialized:

Security. (Otherwise it would be Ancap)
Emergency services.
Education. (Semi. Only elementary education.)
Communication. (Semi. Through Post Office and public news stations.)
Transportation. (Semi. Through public roads)
Health care. (Semi. Through Medicare and Medicaid.)

I would AT LEAST have all the semi socialized things expanded. College education, phone signal, public transit and universal health care should be a right

privatize everything...

So you're an Anarchist?

And, how can a phone signal be a right?

The founding fathers had the right idea by creating the US postal service from the very beginning. They knew that communication was a fundamental pillar of society and is pivotal to a high standard of living. But they did not have phones back then. They had letters. Now things are different and we have more opportunity than ever to develop a successful society through communication.
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fnord
visini
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10/12/2011 1:00:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think that the US needs to start to move towards more socialized programs, and stop the tear down of existing programs. Things like education, communication, transportation, and healthcare needs to be modernized.

The US educational system has fallen to 16th in the world, while Denmark is 1st and Germany and Japan are tied for 2nd. (might be updated information, just known from doing past research 4 month ago) We have to get away from this "You can be anything" mentality, and become realistic. If you have an IQ of 90 you will not be a brain sergent or in the Air Force.

It may just be the "socialist" in me but I think that everyone should have the same opportunity to have high speed internet. I think that the Post Office is an important program in the US, because it is almost self sustaining(if the Republicans would stop putting these harsh taxes and outrageous laws to make them pay into future pension funds for 75 years).

I also think that transportation needs a huge stimulus package to upgrade things like highways, bridges, tunnels, and most of all rail roads. I think that we should look at the examples that Japan and Germany have set in the sense of Bullet trains, and how the high speed trains help their economy and job market.

And most importantly healthcare. I think that there should be a single payer system much like the ones in German and Denmark. Could just be the "socialist" in me, but I think that with all of the rising costs in the private market, there needs to be a universal solution to help people who cannot afford private insurance, or they have pre-existing conditions and cannot get insurance. This would not only get millions of people health insurance so they may live longer, but it also puts more money into the citizens pockets so that hey can either pay off other debts, or spend it freely and help boost the economy. It is a win win situation, I still don't see why w haven't done it yet. Oh yeah, it is because the private insurance agencies pay off elected officials to vote down these proposals.
FREEDO
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10/12/2011 3:04:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/12/2011 1:00:38 AM, visini wrote:
If you have an IQ of 90 you will not be a brain sergent or in the Air Force.

But you can get a job on Fox News.
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fnord
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/12/2011 7:16:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, I do. There are many people who cannot afford college and even more who will attempt to afford it by getting into huge debt that will trouble them for the rest of their life. This makes the conditions that you are born into, which are no fault of your own, a huge indicator of how successful you will be allowed to become.

There are several European countries that have free college education and they all have a much better educated population than the US.:

First of all, there are no free lunches. Somebody always picks up the tab, and being that Europeans are taxed nearly half of their earnings, "free" is not even remotely an accurate description.

Secondly, if everyone goes to college it saturates the market so that there is no incentive to go to college. There's nothing to separate you from the next guy, and if there are 700,000 jobs in a specific field with 1.2 million degree holders applicable to that field, do you honestly believe they'll all get jobs just because they went to college? No.

If you want to learn how to get laid, how to pack a bong, or how to do proper keg stand, go to college. If you want to be successful, be an innovator and an entrepreneur.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
darkkermit
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10/12/2011 7:58:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/11/2011 5:29:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Yes, I do. There are many people who cannot afford college and even more who will attempt to afford it by getting into huge debt that will trouble them for the rest of their life. This makes the conditions that you are born into, which are no fault of your own, a huge indicator of how successful you will be allowed to become.

There are several European countries that have free college education and they all have a much better educated population than the US.

They have a better K-12 education. The US is better at higher education.

Furthermore, If you are getting a degree that does not have a positive Net-Present-Value, then why are you getting once in the first place! Debt is not inherently bad and If it isn't a good investment then you shouldn't get it.

Most college degrees have a positive value, but some majors such as liberal arts majors that are worthless majors have a low investment rate, in which case I do not feel bad for these people.
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Deathbeforedishonour
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10/12/2011 8:29:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
none.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
visini
Posts: 25
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10/12/2011 9:27:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/12/2011 3:04:16 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/12/2011 1:00:38 AM, visini wrote:
If you have an IQ of 90 you will not be a brain sergent or in the Air Force.

But you can get a job on Fox News.

I thought that the max IQ for Fox was 80?
visini
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10/12/2011 9:44:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
They have a better K-12 education. The US is better at higher education.

Furthermore, If you are getting a degree that does not have a positive Net-Present-Value, then why are you getting once in the first place! Debt is not inherently bad and If it isn't a good investment then you shouldn't get it.

Most college degrees have a positive value, but some majors such as liberal arts majors that are worthless majors have a low investment rate, in which case I do not feel bad for these people.

Well it depends on what you mean "better". In Germany, for example, all they have to do is take classes on what they want to major in, because they get all of their basics out of the way in the Gymnasium(College bound High School). That would be way better, because Students wouldn't have to pay for the basics for college and have to take out loans in result of it. I also like that in Germany that their colleges could only about €500($690) for the big colleges and about €150($21) for small community colleges.

Well that is an obvious answer. I mean it is okay to get something like Liberal Arts, but as long as you have a good back up plan.
darkkermit
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10/13/2011 1:13:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/12/2011 9:27:12 PM, visini wrote:
At 10/12/2011 3:04:16 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/12/2011 1:00:38 AM, visini wrote:
If you have an IQ of 90 you will not be a brain sergent or in the Air Force.

But you can get a job on Fox News.

I thought that the max IQ for Fox was 80?

wow.....you are just completely partisan bias aren't you. n
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visini
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10/13/2011 9:57:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/13/2011 1:13:32 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/12/2011 9:27:12 PM, visini wrote:
At 10/12/2011 3:04:16 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/12/2011 1:00:38 AM, visini wrote:
If you have an IQ of 90 you will not be a brain sergent or in the Air Force.

But you can get a job on Fox News.

I thought that the max IQ for Fox was 80?

wow.....you are just completely partisan bias aren't you. n

It is called a joke. Have you never heard of them?
darkkermit
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10/13/2011 10:01:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/13/2011 9:57:07 PM, visini wrote:
At 10/13/2011 1:13:32 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/12/2011 9:27:12 PM, visini wrote:
At 10/12/2011 3:04:16 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/12/2011 1:00:38 AM, visini wrote:
If you have an IQ of 90 you will not be a brain sergent or in the Air Force.

But you can get a job on Fox News.

I thought that the max IQ for Fox was 80?

wow.....you are just completely partisan bias aren't you. n

It is called a joke. Have you never heard of them?

I usually laugh when I hear a joke. Don't see what's so funny about:
"Oh generic random insult about fox news."
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Ragnar_Rahl
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10/13/2011 11:36:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I'd say this falls under surprise/misdirection. "People with an IQ of 90 can't do this and this..." "But they can get a job on Fox News..." You hear an "I thought..." signalling disagreement, and your reaction, assuming you're thinking that much faster than you read (this one would work much better than verbal delivery", is essentially to figure "Hey he disagrees, he's gonna defend Fox News..."-- then they disagree in a totally different direction, shifting the convo from minimum IQs to maximum and stating that's too high. The insulting nature of it just ups the impact, making you care more about the surprise.

Works better for some than others I'm sure, didn't get much of a chuckle outta me, but I understood it as a joke.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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10/13/2011 11:37:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
amended: (This one would work much better WITH verbal delivery...)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
FREEDO
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10/14/2011 1:56:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/13/2011 10:01:55 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/13/2011 9:57:07 PM, visini wrote:
At 10/13/2011 1:13:32 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 10/12/2011 9:27:12 PM, visini wrote:
At 10/12/2011 3:04:16 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/12/2011 1:00:38 AM, visini wrote:
If you have an IQ of 90 you will not be a brain sergent or in the Air Force.

But you can get a job on Fox News.

I thought that the max IQ for Fox was 80?

wow.....you are just completely partisan bias aren't you. n

It is called a joke. Have you never heard of them?

I usually laugh when I hear a joke. Don't see what's so funny about:
"Oh generic random insult about fox news."

I wasn't joking. Glenn Beck's actual IQ, as reported by himself, is 90.
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fnord
FREEDO
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10/14/2011 2:06:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Here's a full list of things I would like to see socialized:

Security.
Emergency services.
Education.
Communication.
Transportation.
Health care.
Food & water.
Housing.
Banking.
Energy.

I think that's all.

I would also like to see the creation of a full employment program with all this public sector.

The way society currently is, the private sector is the primary and the public sector is the fall back. I think it should be the other way around. I definitely think the private sector has it's place though.
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fnord