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Austerity and spending cuts working wonder in

Starcraftzzz
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2/15/2012 5:59:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Greece saw its economy contract by 7.3%
http://online.wsj.com...

UK Unemployment rate increases again
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Eurozone economy contracts 0.3% in 4th quarter
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I doubt conservatives will learn from history mostly because learning is beyond them
MasterKage
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2/15/2012 6:32:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 5:59:47 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
I doubt conservatives will learn from history mostly because learning is beyond them

Jerkish much?
This signature is full of timey wimey wibbly wobbly stuff...
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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2/15/2012 6:35:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 5:59:47 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
Greece saw its economy contract by 7.3%
http://online.wsj.com...

UK Unemployment rate increases again
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Eurozone economy contracts 0.3% in 4th quarter
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I doubt conservatives will learn from history mostly because learning is beyond them

Can't you see you're cherrypicking information?

Either you're doing this along party lines or you're just ignorant.
16kadams
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2/15/2012 6:35:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Note their Spending cuts have tax increases. Hence the economic decline. You need to see the whole story, read their laws!
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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2/15/2012 6:39:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The reason their economy's failing is because of debt, not cuts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...
http://www.theodora.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
thett3
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2/15/2012 6:43:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
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Starcraftzzz
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2/15/2012 7:14:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 6:35:16 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/15/2012 5:59:47 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
Greece saw its economy contract by 7.3%
http://online.wsj.com...

UK Unemployment rate increases again
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Eurozone economy contracts 0.3% in 4th quarter
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I doubt conservatives will learn from history mostly because learning is beyond them

Can't you see you're cherrypicking information?

Either you're doing this along party lines or you're just ignorant.
You're right I forgot to include the data that shows countries who didn't decrease spending have better economies, how silly of me.
Starcraftzzz
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2/15/2012 7:16:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 6:39:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
The reason their economy's failing is because of debt, not cuts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...
http://www.theodora.com...

Wrong. UK had more debt during the great depression. During depression the UK implemented stimulus measures. As a result currently the UK economy now is worse then it was during the great depression
16kadams
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2/15/2012 7:34:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:16:45 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 2/15/2012 6:39:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
The reason their economy's failing is because of debt, not cuts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...
http://www.theodora.com...

Wrong. UK had more debt during the great depression. During depression the UK implemented stimulus measures. As a result currently the UK economy now is worse then it was during the great depression

Source?

Also cutting spending has a better record of helping economies then stimulus.
http://blog.heritage.org...

How? Because the debt causes doubt = worse economy. Also in the 1990s, surplus great economy. You forgot that.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
ConservativePolitico
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2/15/2012 7:41:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 5:59:47 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
Greece saw its economy contract by 7.3%
http://online.wsj.com...

UK Unemployment rate increases again
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Eurozone economy contracts 0.3% in 4th quarter
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I doubt conservatives will learn from history mostly because learning is beyond them

Wait, wait, are you arguing that Greece should have NOT passed this austerity bill? That country is a wreck! Something had to change.
Starcraftzzz
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2/15/2012 7:50:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:34:08 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/15/2012 7:16:45 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 2/15/2012 6:39:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
The reason their economy's failing is because of debt, not cuts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...
http://www.theodora.com...

Wrong. UK had more debt during the great depression. During depression the UK implemented stimulus measures. As a result currently the UK economy now is worse then it was during the great depression

Source?
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com...
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk...

At 2/15/2012 7:34:08 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Also cutting spending has a better record of helping economies then stimulus.
http://blog.heritage.org...
Next time actually read the source your citing. The study doesn't analysis the results of cutting spending/stimulus in the mists of a recession.All the study shows is that when the economy is growing debt/deficits usually are reduced more then when the economy is shrinking.

At 2/15/2012 7:34:08 PM, 16kadams wrote:
How? Because the debt causes doubt = worse economy.
High unemployment and poor GDP growth cause more doubt and worry then high debts. This is evident in the fact that currently the countries whoa re cutting the most spending to reduce debt are seeing their economies do worse then other countries .
At 2/15/2012 7:34:08 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Also in the 1990s, surplus great economy. You forgot that.
I didn't forget it I'm just not totally illiterate in economics to think that both situations are the same.
The economy in 2011 is different from the economy in the 1990's.
Currently we are in a liquidy trap where there massive unemployment, low capital utilization rates, and GDP lower significantly lower then potential GDP. During economic conditions like that cutting spending and reducing deficits results in more unemployment and lower GDP growth, of which all the data supports that conclusion.
The late 1990's was the opposite.
Starcraftzzz
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2/15/2012 7:51:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 7:41:42 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 2/15/2012 5:59:47 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
Greece saw its economy contract by 7.3%
http://online.wsj.com...

UK Unemployment rate increases again
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Eurozone economy contracts 0.3% in 4th quarter
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I doubt conservatives will learn from history mostly because learning is beyond them

Wait, wait, are you arguing that Greece should have NOT passed this austerity bill? That country is a wreck! Something had to change.
The austerity caused Greece's economy to shrink by over 7% in 2011. I guess only republicans think a shrinking economy is a go thing
Mimshot
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2/15/2012 8:49:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wait, wait, are you arguing that Greece should have NOT passed this austerity bill? That country is a wreck! Something had to change.
The austerity caused Greece's economy to shrink by over 7% in 2011. I guess only republicans think a shrinking economy is a go thing

Shrinking economy makes it more likely that Obama wins reelection. Plan A failed, so on to plan B: birth control pills!
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes
16kadams
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2/15/2012 9:49:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 8:49:41 PM, Mimshot wrote:
Wait, wait, are you arguing that Greece should have NOT passed this austerity bill? That country is a wreck! Something had to change.
The austerity caused Greece's economy to shrink by over 7% in 2011. I guess only republicans think a shrinking economy is a go thing

Shrinking economy makes it more likely that Obama wins reelection. Plan A failed, so on to plan B: birth control pills!

lolololololoololololol
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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2/15/2012 10:04:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is logical to believe spending cuts would help the economy. People like you think if the goverment doesn't spend, then the money disappears. This is not the case, it just circulates around the private sector. Less money the government has the more that is in the private sector, where the jobs are made. So the goverment in control of less money woudl actually benefit as the place where the jobs are made will have more money circulating. http://www.forbes.com...

You also cite that higher taxes help the economy. This makes no sense as it drains money from the private sector. The Laffer curve suggests a tax cut for the rich would increase economic growth as the more money I have, the more likely I will be able to hire people. http://en.wikipedia.org...

Also cutting taxes woudl increase revenue, how? Because 50,000,000 people gettign taxes 40% is more then 1 getting taxed 40%. The logic is the tax hires people---> more wealth you can tax.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Mimshot
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2/15/2012 10:05:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 9:49:52 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/15/2012 8:49:41 PM, Mimshot wrote:
Wait, wait, are you arguing that Greece should have NOT passed this austerity bill? That country is a wreck! Something had to change.
The austerity caused Greece's economy to shrink by over 7% in 2011. I guess only republicans think a shrinking economy is a go thing

Shrinking economy makes it more likely that Obama wins reelection. Plan A failed, so on to plan B: birth control pills!

lolololololoololololol

Oh, what? You mean liberals aren't allowed tin foil hats too?

Seriously, if there's one thing this country needs, it's paranoid lefties... preferably with talk radio shows.
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes
Mimshot
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2/15/2012 10:07:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Looks, like we cross posted. Your last post started with "people like you" so I guess I'll need to respond. ;) one sec...
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes
16kadams
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2/15/2012 10:26:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 10:05:27 PM, Mimshot wrote:
At 2/15/2012 9:49:52 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/15/2012 8:49:41 PM, Mimshot wrote:
Wait, wait, are you arguing that Greece should have NOT passed this austerity bill? That country is a wreck! Something had to change.
The austerity caused Greece's economy to shrink by over 7% in 2011. I guess only republicans think a shrinking economy is a go thing

Shrinking economy makes it more likely that Obama wins reelection. Plan A failed, so on to plan B: birth control pills!

lolololololoololololol

Oh, what? You mean liberals aren't allowed tin foil hats too?

Seriously, if there's one thing this country needs, it's paranoid lefties... preferably with talk radio shows.

it was funny, not wrong
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
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2/15/2012 10:37:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 10:04:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
It is logical to believe spending cuts would help the economy. People like you think if the government doesn't spend, then the money disappears.
No, I think if the government doesn't spend or tax then the money supply stays the same.
This is not the case, it just circulates around the private sector. Less money the government has the more that is in the private sector, where the jobs are made. So the government in control of less money would actually benefit as the place where the jobs are made will have more money circulating. http://www.forbes.com...
Yes, exactly, the public sector deficit is equal to the private sector surplus, to the penny.

You also cite that higher taxes help the economy. This makes no sense as it drains money from the private sector.
Taxes only help if inflation is too high. I think taxes should be lower.

The Laffer curve suggests a tax cut for the rich would increase economic growth as the more money I have, the more likely I will be able to hire people. http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 9% unemployment I think were quite far from the Laffer curve mattering

Also cutting taxes would increase revenue, how? Because 50,000,000 people getting taxes 40% is more then 1 getting taxed 40%. The logic is the tax hires people---> more wealth you can tax.
Well, if I own a restaurant, you could cut my taxes to zero, but I'll only hire people if there are too many customers at my tables for my current staff. If you want me to hire someone, cut my customers' taxes.

I'm not sure why I had to reply actually. We agreed on most of it.
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes
16kadams
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2/15/2012 10:41:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 10:37:02 PM, Mimshot wrote:
At 2/15/2012 10:04:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
It is logical to believe spending cuts would help the economy. People like you think if the government doesn't spend, then the money disappears.
No, I think if the government doesn't spend or tax then the money supply stays the same.

good
This is not the case, it just circulates around the private sector. Less money the government has the more that is in the private sector, where the jobs are made. So the government in control of less money would actually benefit as the place where the jobs are made will have more money circulating. http://www.forbes.com...
Yes, exactly, the public sector deficit is equal to the private sector surplus, to the penny.

so we agree?


You also cite that higher taxes help the economy. This makes no sense as it drains money from the private sector.
Taxes only help if inflation is too high. I think taxes should be lower.

yep we agree

The Laffer curve suggests a tax cut for the rich would increase economic growth as the more money I have, the more likely I will be able to hire people. http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 9% unemployment I think were quite far from the Laffer curve mattering

8.5%. Also the curve was used in the time, it worked.


Also cutting taxes would increase revenue, how? Because 50,000,000 people getting taxes 40% is more then 1 getting taxed 40%. The logic is the tax hires people---> more wealth you can tax.
Well, if I own a restaurant, you could cut my taxes to zero, but I'll only hire people if there are too many customers at my tables for my current staff. If you want me to hire someone, cut my customers' taxes.

I agree, but cutting their taxes woudl not add economic growth as they do hire people, you do, so economically only you matter. And higher incomes = 10 incomes ot tax, vs 1.


I'm not sure why I had to reply actually. We agreed on most of it.

. :)
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Starcraftzzz
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2/15/2012 11:43:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/15/2012 10:04:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
It is logical to believe spending cuts would help the economy. People like you think if the goverment doesn't spend, then the money disappears.
This is not the case, it just circulates around the private sector. Less money the government has the more that is in the private sector, where the jobs are made.
Only in our current economic situation. Currently investors and corporations and banks are sitting on trillions and not using it; and since interests are as low as they will go, and there are massive amounts of idle capital and labor any spending done by the government results in the use of resource that would otherwise have gone wasted.

At 2/15/2012 10:04:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
So the goverment in control of less money woudl actually benefit as the place where the jobs. When you look at Europe cuts in government spending results in less demand and therefor has resulted in less money circulating in the private sector.
Also this idea of yours that the private sector is more efficient then government has no basis in reality. Government health care is at least 40% more efficient then private sector health care, SS is 26% more efficient, government welfare is 20% more efficient then charity, government utilities are 25-30% more efficient. This list goes on.

At 2/15/2012 10:04:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
You also cite that higher taxes help the economy. This makes no sense as it drains money from the private sector. The Laffer curve suggests a tax cut for the rich would increase economic growth as the more money I have, the more likely I will be able to hire people. http://en.wikipedia.org...
The only form of taxes that help the economy are taxes on tobacco, alcohol, stock transactions, pollution and other activities that waste money/install more health care costs.
Also the spot on the Laffer curve where the optimal top tax rate (for millionaires) is above 55%.
At 2/15/2012 10:04:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Also cutting taxes woudl increase revenue, how? Because 50,000,000 people gettign taxes 40% is more then 1 getting taxed 40%. The logic is the tax hires people---> more wealth you can tax.
For the past 100 we have tax revenue data it all contradicts your claim that cutting taxes results in more revenue, but dont let reality get in the way of your ignorance.
jimtimmy
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2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Austerity can actually be expansionary when it is based on spending cuts. Tax increases really do hurt economic growth, but spending cuts have been expansionary.

http://www.nber.org...

As for Greece, you have to be joking. Greece is in crisis because they ran up too much debt, not because of austerity. That is like blaming the symptoms of a disease on the medicine.

In Britain, the deficit is still over 8% of GDP, which is extraodinarily high. That is absurd to call that austerity.

And, don't even get me started on the failure of stimulus spending programs in American history.
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Mimshot
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2/16/2012 1:07:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
As for Greece, you have to be joking. Greece is in crisis because they ran up too much debt,
In someone else's currency.

In Britain, the deficit is still over 8% of GDP, which is extraodinarily high. That is absurd to call that austerity.
Inflation's at 3.6%. Unemployment's at 8%. UK has hit's own currency (unlike Greece). The deficit should probably be higher.

And, don't even get me started on the failure of stimulus spending programs in American history.
Please do get started ;)
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes
Starcraftzzz
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2/16/2012 11:20:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Austerity can actually be expansionary when it is based on spending cuts. Tax increases really do hurt economic growth, but spending cuts have been expansionary.
Not in reality. Every European country whose been cutting spending has seen their economies go back into recession and their unemployment rates increase. How many times does history have to prove you wrong before you change your mind?

At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
As for Greece, you have to be joking. Greece is in crisis because they ran up too much debt, not because of austerity. That is like blaming the symptoms of a disease on the medicine.
Greece debt levels are currently lower the levels during the great depression yet its economy is doing worse then during the great depression; the major difference is that in the 30's governments implemented stimulus measures and now they are implementing austerity.

At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
In Britain, the deficit is still over 8% of GDP, which is extraodinarily high. That is absurd to call that austerity.
What is absurd is that austerity in UK resulted in unemployment rising and GDP shrinking and you advocate more austerity. You are insane.
The UK implemented austerity measures equal to over 5% of GDP, that is a very large sum.
At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
And, don't even get me started on the failure of stimulus spending programs in American history.
Yes please explain how creating/saving around 11 million jobs is a failure
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2/16/2012 12:55:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
In Britain, the deficit is still over 8% of GDP, which is extraodinarily high. That is absurd to call that austerity.
What is absurd is that austerity in UK resulted in unemployment rising and GDP shrinking and you advocate more austerity. You are insane.

They keep cutting the end of the board, but it's never quite long enough.
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes
Starcraftzzz
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2/16/2012 1:41:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Austerity is working wonders i Spain. They're economy just went back into recession and unemployment continues to rise.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Italy experiences a double dip recession after implementing austerity measures
http://www.bloomberg.com...

Portugal enters a double dip recession after the government slashes spending
http://www.bloomberg.com...
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2/16/2012 3:28:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:20:22 AM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Austerity can actually be expansionary when it is based on spending cuts. Tax increases really do hurt economic growth, but spending cuts have been expansionary.
Not in reality. Every European country whose been cutting spending has seen their economies go back into recession and their unemployment rates increase. How many times does history have to prove you wrong before you change your mind?

I offered a link to a study that actually tested this using data from 1980 to 2007. Feel free to ignore it and make a dogmatic assertion.




At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
As for Greece, you have to be joking. Greece is in crisis because they ran up too much debt, not because of austerity. That is like blaming the symptoms of a disease on the medicine.
Greece debt levels are currently lower the levels during the great depression yet its economy is doing worse then during the great depression; the major difference is that in the 30's governments implemented stimulus measures and now they are implementing austerity.

Wow. That is such BS. Greece still has a large debt.


At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
In Britain, the deficit is still over 8% of GDP, which is extraodinarily high. That is absurd to call that austerity.
What is absurd is that austerity in UK resulted in unemployment rising and GDP shrinking and you advocate more austerity. You are insane.
The UK implemented austerity measures equal to over 5% of GDP, that is a very large sum.

You don't even understand your own economic theories. In Keynesian theory, a large deficit is stimulative... even if it is less large than it was the year before. Britain has a large deficit.

In fact, Britain is kind of proof that deficit spending does NOT work.

At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
And, don't even get me started on the failure of stimulus spending programs in American history.
Yes please explain how creating/saving around 11 million jobs is a failure

Please explain how making up big numbers is adequate evidence.

Interestingly, we have actually lost millions of jobs since the stimulus passed. Also, unemployment has been far higher than the admin projected with the stimulus.

And, don't give me the "it was worse than we thought" BS.
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Spawktalk
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2/16/2012 4:18:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Another good example is the recession of 1937. The economy had regained most of its GDP and unemployment had significantly fallen so FDR attempted to balance the budget and helped to cause unemployment to shoot up 7 points in one year.

The talk about government spending crowding out private spending seems to assume say's law in its most vulgar form. It ignores the role of liquidity preferences in a recession.

The talk of the laffer curve is misguided. The laffer curve does not state that a decrease in taxes will increase growth or revenue. It is a curve that explains the relationship between these variables. Whether or not a decrease in taxes will increase growth depends on where you are on that curve! lol. Also, tax cuts are not austerity measures. The idea of cutting taxes during a recession is a keynesian stimulus idea brought into popularity by Paul Samuelson via Kennedy. The conservatives were against it because it could increase the deficit. But the idea of tax cuts raising growth bring up an important idea. As keynes pointed out in the 1930's, there is no true dichotomy between stimulus and balancing the budget. Tax cuts and spending can lessen the deficit. Stimulus projects raise peoples incomes which, in the right political context, can raise tax revenues. It also gets people off of welfare, a large burden on the debt. Austerity measures are thus misguided. They stop the economy from growing and thus stop the debt from being repaid. Under Eisenhower, arguably the first keynesian administration, we halves our debt to gdp ratio.

Anyway, those countries did have to engage in bad policies. Europe forced them to because of misguided beliefs on how to lessen the debt.
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2/16/2012 5:40:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 3:28:12 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:20:22 AM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 2/16/2012 12:05:00 AM, jimtimmy wrote:
Austerity can actually be expansionary when it is based on spending cuts. Tax increases really do hurt economic growth, but spending cuts have been expansionary.
Not in reality. Every European country whose been cutting spending has seen their economies go back into recession and their unemployment rates increase. How many times does history have to prove you wrong before you change your mind?


I offered a link to a study that actually tested this using data from 1980 to 2007. Feel free to ignore it and make a dogmatic assertion.

Did you read the study you posted? I did not say austerity grows economies, it said the opposite: that bigger deficits act as fiscal stimuli. It then goes on to make the point you misconstrue: that if you have to pick between tax cuts and spending increases for stimulus, tax cuts are better. Presumably both are better still.
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes