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Energy failings of the "free market"

Starcraftzzz
Posts: 487
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3/7/2012 7:07:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
When it comes to energy the real cost of fossil fuels is twice as large as that of clean energy, however since in the free market health and environmental factors are not considered the free market results in having energy sources that are far more expensive.
http://thinkprogress.org...
^Another study finds that coal mining in Kentucky has a negative impact overall on the economy

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org...
http://www.reuters.com...
^Coals negative impact on health and the environment is estimated to cost the united states over 400 billion dollars yearly.

http://www.sourcewatch.org...
^Total amount of money generated and spent on coal plants exceeded 500 billion in 2005.
^Meaning health care and environmental costs if added to the cost of coal would increase costs by over 80%.

http://thinkprogress.org...
^New study fines that Coals negative effect on human health and the environmental cost the nation at least 125% more than the electricity generated from coal.
^Coal results in at least 30,000 American deaths each year.

http://thinkprogress.org...
^New study finds that Coal and Oil are more costly then renewable energy once health and environmental effects are included.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/7/2012 7:10:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
we need nuclear power.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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3/7/2012 7:10:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
By the way there is no free market in the energy business, heard of the EPA?
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,288
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3/7/2012 7:16:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Think of all the fossil oil wasted on maintaining electical grid hardware infrastructure...we should just go to an electricity free society. That would be true clean energy. Pehaps water hydraulics instead of power lines?
Starcraftzzz
Posts: 487
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3/7/2012 7:24:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 7:10:48 PM, 16kadams wrote:
By the way there is no free market in the energy business, heard of the EPA?

I see so according to you EPA actions that save the economy billions of dollars shows that "free markets" are good. Plz think
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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3/7/2012 7:26:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 7:24:22 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:10:48 PM, 16kadams wrote:
By the way there is no free market in the energy business, heard of the EPA?

I see so according to you EPA actions that save the economy billions of dollars shows that "free markets" are good. Plz think

The EPA should run all our electric companies right? Electricity would be so much cheaper.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,288
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3/7/2012 7:29:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 7:26:04 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:24:22 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:10:48 PM, 16kadams wrote:
By the way there is no free market in the energy business, heard of the EPA?

I see so according to you EPA actions that save the economy billions of dollars shows that "free markets" are good. Plz think

The EPA should run all our electric companies right? Electricity would be so much cheaper.

Electricity really is dirty energy... get with the green program friend.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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3/7/2012 7:30:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 7:29:55 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:26:04 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:24:22 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:10:48 PM, 16kadams wrote:
By the way there is no free market in the energy business, heard of the EPA?

I see so according to you EPA actions that save the economy billions of dollars shows that "free markets" are good. Plz think

The EPA should run all our electric companies right? Electricity would be so much cheaper.

Electricity really is dirty energy... get with the green program friend.

Hmmm... how am I going to cook with hydraulics?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,288
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3/7/2012 7:31:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 7:30:45 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:29:55 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:26:04 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:24:22 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:10:48 PM, 16kadams wrote:
By the way there is no free market in the energy business, heard of the EPA?

I see so according to you EPA actions that save the economy billions of dollars shows that "free markets" are good. Plz think

The EPA should run all our electric companies right? Electricity would be so much cheaper.

Electricity really is dirty energy... get with the green program friend.

Hmmm... how am I going to cook with hydraulics?

Friction duh....
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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3/7/2012 7:33:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 7:31:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:30:45 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:29:55 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:26:04 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:24:22 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
At 3/7/2012 7:10:48 PM, 16kadams wrote:
By the way there is no free market in the energy business, heard of the EPA?

I see so according to you EPA actions that save the economy billions of dollars shows that "free markets" are good. Plz think

The EPA should run all our electric companies right? Electricity would be so much cheaper.

Electricity really is dirty energy... get with the green program friend.

Hmmm... how am I going to cook with hydraulics?

Friction duh....

Oh... I see.

That's a pretty good plan.

How are we going to pressurize the hydraulic systems?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JrRepublican
Posts: 44
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3/19/2012 2:23:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 8:17:23 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
Note that conservative deny reality.

Well then. We deny reality? Let's take this apart. There are four imperatives to a successful energy source - power density, energy density, cost, and space. Basically, you need to be able to produce a sufficient amount of power from a small amount of product, and it must not take up too much space. It also must be cost-efficient. Solar and wind power are fine on an individual basis, but require way too much space to ever be remotely competitive on a large scale. Biofuels require too much space and are very expensive. By the way, read Robert Bryce's "Power Hungry." Basically, no currently available renewable energy source is practical. We use hydrocarbons - oil, coal, and natural gas - not becasue we're addicted to them but because they're the only way to get the power we need. We aren't concerned with energy, we want the power to cook our meals, power our televisions, brew our coffee, and turn on our computers. Anyone who thinks that renewable energy sources can replace the conventional fossil fuels is denying reality. We conservatives simply articulate that.
Mimshot
Posts: 275
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3/19/2012 4:31:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 2:23:58 PM, JrRepublican wrote:
At 3/7/2012 8:17:23 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
Note that conservative deny reality.

Well then. We deny reality? Let's take this apart. There are four imperatives to a successful energy source - power density, energy density, cost, and space. Basically, you need to be able to produce a sufficient amount of power from a small amount of product, and it must not take up too much space. It also must be cost-efficient. Solar and wind power are fine on an individual basis, but require way too much space to ever be remotely competitive on a large scale. Biofuels require too much space and are very expensive. By the way, read Robert Bryce's "Power Hungry." Basically, no currently available renewable energy source is practical. We use hydrocarbons - oil, coal, and natural gas - not becasue we're addicted to them but because they're the only way to get the power we need. We aren't concerned with energy, we want the power to cook our meals, power our televisions, brew our coffee, and turn on our computers. Anyone who thinks that renewable energy sources can replace the conventional fossil fuels is denying reality. We conservatives simply articulate that.

*cough* nuclear *cough*
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seraine
Posts: 734
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3/19/2012 8:05:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 4:31:48 PM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/19/2012 2:23:58 PM, JrRepublican wrote:
At 3/7/2012 8:17:23 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
Note that conservative deny reality.

Well then. We deny reality? Let's take this apart. There are four imperatives to a successful energy source - power density, energy density, cost, and space. Basically, you need to be able to produce a sufficient amount of power from a small amount of product, and it must not take up too much space. It also must be cost-efficient. Solar and wind power are fine on an individual basis, but require way too much space to ever be remotely competitive on a large scale. Biofuels require too much space and are very expensive. By the way, read Robert Bryce's "Power Hungry." Basically, no currently available renewable energy source is practical. We use hydrocarbons - oil, coal, and natural gas - not becasue we're addicted to them but because they're the only way to get the power we need. We aren't concerned with energy, we want the power to cook our meals, power our televisions, brew our coffee, and turn on our computers. Anyone who thinks that renewable energy sources can replace the conventional fossil fuels is denying reality. We conservatives simply articulate that.

*cough* nuclear *cough*

Yeah, nuclear can do everything coal can do - except three times better.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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3/19/2012 8:09:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Retitled: energy failings of earth.
You can scroll along until you hit nuclear (I assume you mean fission).
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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/19/2012 8:51:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
When it comes to energy the real cost of fossil fuels is twice as large as that of clean energy,
This is a meaningless number, as it was not acquired by any sort of rational pricing mechanism and relies on interpersonal comparisons of utility.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/19/2012 8:55:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 8:09:29 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:


Retitled: energy failings of earth.
You can scroll along until you hit nuclear (I assume you mean fission).

Doesn't take into consideration the vast amount of uranium reserves that can be found in the seawater that haven't been harvested and fission breeder reactors which can use uranium fuel more efficiently.
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RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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3/20/2012 6:56:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The cited studies are transparently bogus, done by ideologically driven environmental groups. Kentucky has high asthma rates and high use of coal. Oregon also has high asthma rates, but almost no use of coal. Maine has the highest asthma rate in the country, worse than Kentucky, with 1% use of coal, about the lowest in the country. The worst asthma rate is less than twice the best asthma rate, so attributing all the costs of asthma to coal cannot be justified under any circumstances.

Multiple bogus studies do not make a conclusion valid. They just reflect the group think of ideologues.

Alternative energy is at the very least six times the cost of coal, and probably more. Alternative energy costs need to take into account capital costs (wind and solar facilities have less than half the life of conventional power plants), the smart grid costs needed to switch unreliable alternatives in and out of the grid, and the cost of backup systems to takeover when the wind dies or the sun goes down.

the rising alternative to coal is natural gas. New technology has produced a glut of cheap natural gas, and natural gas is inherently much cleaner than coal, so there is less cost in cleaning up the emissions.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/21/2012 10:06:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 4:31:48 PM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/19/2012 2:23:58 PM, JrRepublican wrote:
At 3/7/2012 8:17:23 PM, Starcraftzzz wrote:
Note that conservative deny reality.

Well then. We deny reality? Let's take this apart. There are four imperatives to a successful energy source - power density, energy density, cost, and space. Basically, you need to be able to produce a sufficient amount of power from a small amount of product, and it must not take up too much space. It also must be cost-efficient. Solar and wind power are fine on an individual basis, but require way too much space to ever be remotely competitive on a large scale. Biofuels require too much space and are very expensive. By the way, read Robert Bryce's "Power Hungry." Basically, no currently available renewable energy source is practical. We use hydrocarbons - oil, coal, and natural gas - not becasue we're addicted to them but because they're the only way to get the power we need. We aren't concerned with energy, we want the power to cook our meals, power our televisions, brew our coffee, and turn on our computers. Anyone who thinks that renewable energy sources can replace the conventional fossil fuels is denying reality. We conservatives simply articulate that.

*cough* nuclear *cough*

nuclear is the best!!
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/21/2012 10:50:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 6:56:42 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The cited studies are transparently bogus, done by ideologically driven environmental groups.:

I was going to mention that Thinkprogress is just about the most unbiased source he could have used.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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3/21/2012 10:50:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 10:50:10 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/20/2012 6:56:42 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The cited studies are transparently bogus, done by ideologically driven environmental groups.:

I was going to mention that Thinkprogress is just about the most unbiased source he could have used.:

That was sarcasm, by the way.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/22/2012 2:33:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 10:50:55 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/21/2012 10:50:10 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/20/2012 6:56:42 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The cited studies are transparently bogus, done by ideologically driven environmental groups.:

I was going to mention that Thinkprogress is just about the most unbiased source he could have used.:

That was sarcasm, by the way.

Yes, its bogus to have studies by environmental scientists instead of dirty industry tycoon researchers. Oh, the irony ...
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/22/2012 10:11:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 2:33:27 AM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/21/2012 10:50:55 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/21/2012 10:50:10 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/20/2012 6:56:42 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The cited studies are transparently bogus, done by ideologically driven environmental groups.:

I was going to mention that Thinkprogress is just about the most unbiased source he could have used.:

That was sarcasm, by the way.

Yes, its bogus to have studies by environmental scientists instead of dirty industry tycoon researchers. Oh, the irony ...

dude think progress is like saying yahoo answers, it always has the same think: Crap.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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3/22/2012 11:17:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Peoples ignorance about crude oil is mind boggling. Even if you were to find a energy source to replace gasoline. You still have to drill for it because that is not the only thing that crude oil is used for. 4000 different things are made from it. Your computer is made out of it. Every aspect of your life depends on it not just the gas in your car. Gasoline is just a fraction of it's uses. Crude oil is the most efficient substance in the world.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
16kadams
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3/22/2012 11:19:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 11:17:13 PM, sadolite wrote:
Peoples ignorance about crude oil is mind boggling. Even if you were to find a energy source to replace gasoline. You still have to drill for it because that is not the only thing that crude oil is used for. 4000 different things are made from it. Your computer is made out of it. Every aspect of your life depends on it not just the gas in your car. Gasoline is just a fraction of it's uses. Crude oil is the most efficient substance in the world.

+infinity
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
sadolite
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3/22/2012 11:28:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 11:17:13 PM, sadolite wrote:
Peoples ignorance about crude oil is mind boggling. Even if you were to find a energy source to replace gasoline. You still have to drill for it because that is not the only thing that crude oil is used for. 4000 different things are made from it. Your computer is made out of it. Every aspect of your life depends on it not just the gas in your car. Gasoline is just a fraction of it's uses. Crude oil is the most efficient substance in the world.

80% of everything in your home right now could not be manufactured any longer if we stopped drilling for oil. They all would have to be made of the basic elements. And nearly 50% of the items in your house can not be made with the basic elements.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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3/23/2012 12:05:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 11:28:29 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/22/2012 11:17:13 PM, sadolite wrote:
Peoples ignorance about crude oil is mind boggling. Even if you were to find a energy source to replace gasoline. You still have to drill for it because that is not the only thing that crude oil is used for. 4000 different things are made from it. Your computer is made out of it. Every aspect of your life depends on it not just the gas in your car. Gasoline is just a fraction of it's uses. Crude oil is the most efficient substance in the world.

80% of everything in your home right now could not be manufactured any longer if we stopped drilling for oil. They all would have to be made of the basic elements. And nearly 50% of the items in your house can not be made with the basic elements.

I agree.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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3/23/2012 12:27:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here is a short list of things you can kiss good bye when you morons who want to stop drilling for oil will no longer have available to you.

ammonia
anesthetics
antifreeze
antihistamines
antiseptics
artificial limbs
artificial turf
aspirin
awnings
balloons
ballpoint pens
bandages
basketballs
bearing grease
bicycle tires
boats
cameras
candles
car battery cases
car enamel
cassettes
caulking
cd player
cd's
clothes
clothesline
cold cream
combs
cortisone
crayons
curtains
dashboards
denture adhesive
dentures
deodorant
detergents
dice
diesel
dishes
dishwasher
dresses
drinking cups
dyes
electric blankets
electrician's tape
enamel
epoxy
eyeglasses
fan belts
faucet washers
fertilizers
fishing boots
fishing lures
fishing rods
floor wax
folding doors
food preservatives
football cleats
football helmets
footballs
footballs
gasoline
glycerin
golf bags
golf balls
guitar strings
hair coloring
hair curlers
hand lotion
heart valves
house paint
ice chests
ice cube trays
ink
insect repellent
insecticides
life jackets
linings
linoleum
lipstick
luggage
model cars
mops
motor oil
motorcycle helmet
movie film
nail polish
nylon rope
oil filters
paint
paint brushes
paint rollers
panty hose
parachutes
percolators
perfumes
petroleum jelly
pillows
plastic wood
purses
putty
refrigerant
refrigerators
roller skates
roofing
rubber cement
rubbing alcohol
safety glasses
shag rugs
shampoo
shaving cream
shoe polish
shoes
shower curtains
skis
slacks
soap
soft contact lenses
solvents
speakers
sports car bodies
sun glasses
surf boards
sweaters
synthetic rubber
telephones
tennis rackets
tents
tires
toilet seats
tool boxes
tool racks
toothbrushes
toothpaste
transparent tape
trash bags
tv cabinets
umbrellas
upholstery
vaporizers
vitamin capsules
water pipes
wheels
yarn

Second list found on Gasprices-usa.com:

air conditioners
ammonia
anti-histamines
antiseptics
artificial turf
asphalt
aspirin
balloons
bandages
boats
bottles
bras
bubble gum
butane
cameras
candles
car batteries
car bodies
carpet
cassette tapes
caulking
cds
chewing gum
combs/brushes
computers
contacts
cortisone
crayons
cream
denture adhesives
deodorant
detergents
dice
dishwashing liquid
dresses
dryers
electric blankets
electrician's tape
fertilizers
fishing lures
fishing rods
floor wax
footballs
glues
glycerin
golf balls
guitar strings
hair
hair coloring
hair curlers
hearing aids
heart valves
heating oil
house paint
ice chests
ink
insect repellent
insulation
jet fuel
life jackets
linoleum
lip balm
lipstick
loudspeakers
medicines
mops
motor oil
motorcycle helmets
movie film
nail polish
oil filters
paddles
paint brushes
paints
parachutes
paraffin
pens
perfumes
petroleum jelly
plastic chairs
plastic cups
plastic forks
plastic wrap
plastics
plywood adhesives
refrigerators
roller-skate wheels
roofing paper
rubber bands
rubber boots
rubber cement
rubbish bags
running shoes
saccharine
seals
shirts (non-cotton)
shoe polish
shoes
shower curtains
solvents
spectacles
stereos
sweaters
table tennis balls
tape recorders
telephones
tennis rackets
thermos
tights
toilet seats
toners
toothpaste
transparencies
transparent tape
tv cabinets
typewriter/computer ribbons
tires
umbrellas
upholstery
vaporizers
vitamin capsules
volleyballs
water pipes
water skis
wax
wax paper
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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3/23/2012 6:05:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 2:33:27 AM, PervRat wrote:
Yes, its bogus to have studies by environmental scientists instead of dirty industry tycoon researchers. Oh, the irony ...

Bias is not revealed by who does the study, but rather by the methodology evident in the study. The errors in methodology are apparent, so it's reasonable to conclude they were driven by a common source of bias evident in group think. However, the studies would be bogus no matter who did them.
Mimshot
Posts: 275
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3/23/2012 9:59:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/23/2012 12:27:42 AM, sadolite wrote:
Here is a short list of things you can kiss good bye when you morons who want to stop drilling for oil will no longer have available to you.

"you morons?" When did we morons say we should stop drilling for oil. Not wanting tax payers to GIVE money to well connected CEOs who happen to be in the oil industry is related to not drilling for oil how? Oh, and by the way, look at how Obama has reduced the number of oil wells in the united states:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com...
Mimshot: I support the 1956 Republican platform
DDMx: So, you're a socialist?
Mimshot: Yes