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Raise the minimum wage?

16kadams
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3/10/2012 5:28:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
~Minimum wage, hurts the economy through employment1~

A high minimum wage makes it harder for them to get a job.[1] Raising the minimum wage is followed by teenage unemployment. [2] Most economists agree the minimum wage hurts the economy. [3, 4] A liberal argument is: It helps the poor. This too is false. Raising the minimum wage doesn't help reduce poverty. [5] the reason it does not lower poverty is because the majority of minimum wage workers are teenagers and secondary earners that do not effect their whole households income to any extreme. [6] Almost none of the workers under the minimum wage actually use the minimum wage to supply their living. [6] Therefore the teenagers are actually just out there. The minimum wage has actually added the amount of people who cannot find jobs. [7] Seriously guys, its bad for the economy and doesn't help the poor people. So lets now lets see how it increases dropout rates.

~Effects on schools: Dropouts~

A raise in the minimum wage not only raises unemployment, but forces high school dropouts.[8] Any increase in the minimum wage increases high school dropouts. [9] Would you rather leave school when you get a wage of 10$ or 5$? 10. But as I stated this actually doesn't mean the get a job, and they likely do not get a job. They dropout, with sadening results. The statistics are on my side: Minimum wage raises = more dropouts. [10] The hikes in the minimum wage may actually decrease enrollment in schools. [11, 10] And for the last time: It still doesn't reduce poverty. [12, 10]
http://the-dp-is-good-always.blogspot.com...

[1] http://epionline.org...
[2] http://cincinnati.com...
[3] http://www.balancedpolitics.org...
[4] http://www.slate.com...
[5] http://www.cnn.com...
[6] http://www.forbes.com...
[7] http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com...
[8] http://www.nationalcenter.org...
[9] Neumark, David and William Wascher, The Effects of Minimum Wages on Teenage Employment and Enrollment: Evidence from Matched CPS Surveys. National Bureau for Economic Research: Cambridge, MA, 1995.
[10] http://www.heritage.org...
[11] David Neumark and William Wascher, "Minimum Wages and Skill Acquisition: Another Look at Schooling Effects,"Economics of Education Review 22:1-10.
[12] David Neumark and William Wascher, "Do Minimum Wages Fight Poverty?," Economic Inquiry, 2002, v40(3,Jul), pp. 315-333.

questions?
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Irkutsk
Posts: 114
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3/10/2012 6:01:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
See: Wage increase upward spiral of price.
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Steelerman6794
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3/10/2012 6:17:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Minimum wage ---> more expensive to produce goods ---> aggregate supply shifts left ---> stagflation (unemployment and inflation both rise) ---> prices of all goods increase ---> value of increased wage diminished
sadolite
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3/10/2012 6:22:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Pay everyone $100,000 a year, end of poverty as we know it, Problem solved. If one is going to continue to raise the minimum wage what will be the maximum it can ever possibly reach? And why waste time on inching your way up to it? To waste everyone's time using the minimum wage as a propaganda tool to convince people that other people don't care about the poor because they don't approve of a "minimum wage increase?" Stop wasting my time and everyone else's time and just raise it to the maximum amount that it can ever possibly be and then we can throw that whole "you don't care about poor people because you don't support a minimum wage increase" argument in the sh!t can.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

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Contra
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3/10/2012 6:58:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Of course the minimum wage leads to unemployment in some cases, but the point for the minimum wage is for more social equality. What is the worth of a $2.50 an hour wage? (see QD on the graph? Surplus of labor).

http://www.google.com...

A negative income tax with a progressive tax ... a possible idea. Heck, I might even support a negative income tax and a flat tax if it was structured well.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Islam_Forever
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3/10/2012 8:42:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Raise it to $250 an hour so a massive underground market develops, more jobs get shipped oversees, economic productivity decreases, and quality of life deteriorates!!! Death to America!!! DEATH TO AMERICA!!!
Lasagna
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3/10/2012 8:51:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 8:42:18 PM, Islam_Forever wrote:
Raise it to $250 an hour so a massive underground market develops, more jobs get shipped oversees, economic productivity decreases, and quality of life deteriorates!!! Death to America!!! DEATH TO AMERICA!!!

Quality of site = decreasing
Rob
16kadams
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3/11/2012 12:10:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 6:58:45 PM, Contra wrote:
Of course the minimum wage leads to unemployment in some cases, but the point for the minimum wage is for more social equality. What is the worth of a $2.50 an hour wage? (see QD on the graph? Surplus of labor).

http://www.google.com...

A negative income tax with a progressive tax ... a possible idea. Heck, I might even support a negative income tax and a flat tax if it was structured well.

thats assuming they actually can create an equilibrium.

if it did this wouldn't happen
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imabench
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3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is
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Irkutsk
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3/11/2012 1:32:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

Fixed.
Life is like radiation. A uniquely damaging event. Perhaps I will live another thirty years. Perhaps I will die tomorrow. But I have no regrets. I was sometimes forced to make difficult choices. But enough is enough. As Vladimir would say, you can only die once, make sure it is worth it.
Contra
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3/11/2012 10:26:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 8:42:18 PM, Islam_Forever wrote:
Raise it to $250 an hour so a massive underground market develops, more jobs get shipped oversees, economic productivity decreases, and quality of life deteriorates!!! Death to America!!! DEATH TO AMERICA!!!

I highly doubt that your a Democrat.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
16kadams
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3/11/2012 10:56:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:26:55 AM, Contra wrote:
At 3/10/2012 8:42:18 PM, Islam_Forever wrote:
Raise it to $250 an hour so a massive underground market develops, more jobs get shipped oversees, economic productivity decreases, and quality of life deteriorates!!! Death to America!!! DEATH TO AMERICA!!!

I highly doubt that your a Democrat.

He wants a living wage, so yes I think he is.
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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3/11/2012 10:59:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

The minimum wage does not reduce poverty...

People would either get paid what their worth with no minimum wage (people hired now would get paid the same if we lowered it) and the people making 0$ now would start making 5$. Lowering the minimum wage is good:

Better economy
Will help unemployed get employed
Wouldn't lower poverty
Less unemployment

Yeah.
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
socialpinko
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3/11/2012 10:16:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

It does so at the expense of the unskilled and impoverished who's unemployment rate increases along with the minimum wage.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
16kadams
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3/11/2012 10:21:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:16:43 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

It does so at the expense of the unskilled and impoverished who's unemployment rate increases along with the minimum wage.

+1
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Contra
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3/11/2012 10:34:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:16:43 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

It does so at the expense of the unskilled and impoverished who's unemployment rate increases along with the minimum wage.

Do you understand my logic? What is the value of a $2 wage? That is about $16 a day, you CANNOT LIVE ON THAT.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
socialpinko
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3/11/2012 11:14:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:34:14 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/11/2012 10:16:43 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

It does so at the expense of the unskilled and impoverished who's unemployment rate increases along with the minimum wage.

Do you understand my logic? What is the value of a $2 wage? That is about $16 a day, you CANNOT LIVE ON THAT.

You can live a lot easier on $16 than $0 can't you? That's how the minimum wage hurts the already vulnerable low skill workers it attempts to help in the first place.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
16kadams
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3/11/2012 11:22:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:34:14 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/11/2012 10:16:43 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

It does so at the expense of the unskilled and impoverished who's unemployment rate increases along with the minimum wage.

Do you understand my logic? What is the value of a $2 wage? That is about $16 a day, you CANNOT LIVE ON THAT.

Your logic is economically flawed. People currently hired will see no change in wages and people would get paid what their worth. The people unemployed because their skills are low is because they do not justify the wage. Those people because of that wage get 0$, no minimum wage they get 3$. 300% increase.
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
THEBOMB
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3/11/2012 11:41:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 11:22:01 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 3/11/2012 10:34:14 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/11/2012 10:16:43 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

It does so at the expense of the unskilled and impoverished who's unemployment rate increases along with the minimum wage.

Do you understand my logic? What is the value of a $2 wage? That is about $16 a day, you CANNOT LIVE ON THAT.

Your logic is economically flawed. People currently hired will see no change in wages and people would get paid what their worth. The people unemployed because their skills are low is because they do not justify the wage. Those people because of that wage get 0$, no minimum wage they get 3$. 300% increase.

errr...do I have to say the problem with this math right here? whats 300% of 0....
JaxsonRaine
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3/11/2012 11:48:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 10:34:14 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/11/2012 10:16:43 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/11/2012 12:19:09 AM, imabench wrote:
the minimum wage exists to try to raise the standards of the middle class to an acceptable level not spur economic growth.

I vote we leave it as is

It does so at the expense of the unskilled and impoverished who's unemployment rate increases along with the minimum wage.

Do you understand my logic? What is the value of a $2 wage? That is about $16 a day, you CANNOT LIVE ON THAT.

Most minimum wage workers are teens and unskilled workers with no job history. It shouldn't be a wage you can support a family off of.

Do you know what percentage of jobs are minimum wage? 1.4%. 98.6% of all jobs would not change pay down if minimum wage went down.

Only 4% of people 25 and older make minimum wage. It's mostly teens.

9%(or 12%, or 19%) of our nation has NO work. If the min. wage was lower, more small/struggling companies would be able to hire people that they can't hire right now.

Where my parents live, there are a lot of businesses that are struggling, and they can't afford to pay 2 people minimum wage, so they either have 1 person, or they pay 2 under the table below min. wage.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
RoyLatham
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3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are several alternatives employers have to paying the minimum wage.

One is to automate. McDonalds recently introduce a drink machine that stops filling at the right level automatically. This reduces staff by one person for every twelve. Years ago, McDonald's built a prototype completely automated restaurant. It's a cost issue as to how far to automate. Most low-paying jobs can be automated.

Second is to close down operations where too few customers will pay the increased prices.

Third, and the one that isn't obvious, is to hire more experienced workers. At the higher wages, more efficient workers are available. Teens are then left out of entry level jobs.

If the minimum wage is below market rates, there is no effect on employment. In 300 cases of minimum wage increases studied, unemployment did not increase in six of them. In all the others unemployment increased.
16kadams
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3/12/2012 12:30:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
There are several alternatives employers have to paying the minimum wage.

One is to automate. McDonalds recently introduce a drink machine that stops filling at the right level automatically. This reduces staff by one person for every twelve. Years ago, McDonald's built a prototype completely automated restaurant. It's a cost issue as to how far to automate. Most low-paying jobs can be automated.

Second is to close down operations where too few customers will pay the increased prices.

Third, and the one that isn't obvious, is to hire more experienced workers. At the higher wages, more efficient workers are available. Teens are then left out of entry level jobs.

If the minimum wage is below market rates, there is no effect on employment. In 300 cases of minimum wage increases studied, unemployment did not increase in six of them. In all the others unemployment increased.

I applaud the truthfulness in that.
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Mimshot
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3/12/2012 10:13:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
There are several alternatives employers have to paying the minimum wage.

One is to automate. McDonalds recently introduce a drink machine that stops filling at the right level automatically. This reduces staff by one person for every twelve. Years ago, McDonald's built a prototype completely automated restaurant. It's a cost issue as to how far to automate. Most low-paying jobs can be automated.
Yes, and more automation is a good thing. You're thinking in terms of supply and demand of jobs, when you should really be thinking in terms of supply and demand of labor. The person paying is always on the demand side and the person receiving is always supply side of the transaction. When a job is no longer necessary, it frees up people to do other things. It used to take 50% of our population to grow enough food for us, now it takes ~0.4%. All those other people are now building cars and designing iPods.

Second is to close down operations where too few customers will pay the increased prices.

Third, and the one that isn't obvious, is to hire more experienced workers. At the higher wages, more efficient workers are available. Teens are then left out of entry level jobs.
A more productive work force means a stronger economy. How is this bad on the macro-scale? On the micro scale people need to be re-trained, but this is true of any modernization. Teens should be in school, I don't care for their level of job opportunity in the least.

If the minimum wage is below market rates, there is no effect on employment. In 300 cases of minimum wage increases studied, unemployment did not increase in six of them. In all the others unemployment increased.

I have yet to see evidence that this is not a transient effect. If you have some, I'd love to read it.
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16kadams
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3/12/2012 10:45:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 10:13:03 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
There are several alternatives employers have to paying the minimum wage.

One is to automate. McDonalds recently introduce a drink machine that stops filling at the right level automatically. This reduces staff by one person for every twelve. Years ago, McDonald's built a prototype completely automated restaurant. It's a cost issue as to how far to automate. Most low-paying jobs can be automated.
Yes, and more automation is a good thing. You're thinking in terms of supply and demand of jobs, when you should really be thinking in terms of supply and demand of labor. The person paying is always on the demand side and the person receiving is always supply side of the transaction. When a job is no longer necessary, it frees up people to do other things. It used to take 50% of our population to grow enough food for us, now it takes ~0.4%. All those other people are now building cars and designing iPods.

Second is to close down operations where too few customers will pay the increased prices.

Third, and the one that isn't obvious, is to hire more experienced workers. At the higher wages, more efficient workers are available. Teens are then left out of entry level jobs.
A more productive work force means a stronger economy. How is this bad on the macro-scale? On the micro scale people need to be re-trained, but this is true of any modernization. Teens should be in school, I don't care for their level of job opportunity in the least.

If the minimum wage is below market rates, there is no effect on employment. In 300 cases of minimum wage increases studied, unemployment did not increase in six of them. In all the others unemployment increased.

I have yet to see evidence that this is not a transient effect. If you have some, I'd love to read it.

the government site I always cited was closed recently :(
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Contra
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3/13/2012 9:06:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 10:45:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 3/12/2012 10:13:03 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
There are several alternatives employers have to paying the minimum wage.

One is to automate. McDonalds recently introduce a drink machine that stops filling at the right level automatically. This reduces staff by one person for every twelve. Years ago, McDonald's built a prototype completely automated restaurant. It's a cost issue as to how far to automate. Most low-paying jobs can be automated.
Yes, and more automation is a good thing. You're thinking in terms of supply and demand of jobs, when you should really be thinking in terms of supply and demand of labor. The person paying is always on the demand side and the person receiving is always supply side of the transaction. When a job is no longer necessary, it frees up people to do other things. It used to take 50% of our population to grow enough food for us, now it takes ~0.4%. All those other people are now building cars and designing iPods.

Second is to close down operations where too few customers will pay the increased prices.

Third, and the one that isn't obvious, is to hire more experienced workers. At the higher wages, more efficient workers are available. Teens are then left out of entry level jobs.
A more productive work force means a stronger economy. How is this bad on the macro-scale? On the micro scale people need to be re-trained, but this is true of any modernization. Teens should be in school, I don't care for their level of job opportunity in the least.

If the minimum wage is below market rates, there is no effect on employment. In 300 cases of minimum wage increases studied, unemployment did not increase in six of them. In all the others unemployment increased.

I have yet to see evidence that this is not a transient effect. If you have some, I'd love to read it.

the government site I always cited was closed recently :(

The CATO or Heritage Foundation? Just kidding...
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
16kadams
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3/13/2012 11:46:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/13/2012 9:06:47 PM, Contra wrote:
At 3/12/2012 10:45:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 3/12/2012 10:13:03 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
There are several alternatives employers have to paying the minimum wage.

One is to automate. McDonalds recently introduce a drink machine that stops filling at the right level automatically. This reduces staff by one person for every twelve. Years ago, McDonald's built a prototype completely automated restaurant. It's a cost issue as to how far to automate. Most low-paying jobs can be automated.
Yes, and more automation is a good thing. You're thinking in terms of supply and demand of jobs, when you should really be thinking in terms of supply and demand of labor. The person paying is always on the demand side and the person receiving is always supply side of the transaction. When a job is no longer necessary, it frees up people to do other things. It used to take 50% of our population to grow enough food for us, now it takes ~0.4%. All those other people are now building cars and designing iPods.

Second is to close down operations where too few customers will pay the increased prices.

Third, and the one that isn't obvious, is to hire more experienced workers. At the higher wages, more efficient workers are available. Teens are then left out of entry level jobs.
A more productive work force means a stronger economy. How is this bad on the macro-scale? On the micro scale people need to be re-trained, but this is true of any modernization. Teens should be in school, I don't care for their level of job opportunity in the least.

If the minimum wage is below market rates, there is no effect on employment. In 300 cases of minimum wage increases studied, unemployment did not increase in six of them. In all the others unemployment increased.

I have yet to see evidence that this is not a transient effect. If you have some, I'd love to read it.

the government site I always cited was closed recently :(

The CATO or Heritage Foundation? Just kidding...

it was house.gov/regs

it had 50 years of research then the bastards closed it!
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mongeese
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3/14/2012 6:13:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 10:13:03 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
There are several alternatives employers have to paying the minimum wage.

One is to automate. McDonalds recently introduce a drink machine that stops filling at the right level automatically. This reduces staff by one person for every twelve. Years ago, McDonald's built a prototype completely automated restaurant. It's a cost issue as to how far to automate. Most low-paying jobs can be automated.
Yes, and more automation is a good thing. You're thinking in terms of supply and demand of jobs, when you should really be thinking in terms of supply and demand of labor. The person paying is always on the demand side and the person receiving is always supply side of the transaction. When a job is no longer necessary, it frees up people to do other things. It used to take 50% of our population to grow enough food for us, now it takes ~0.4%. All those other people are now building cars and designing iPods.

But what if there aren't any competing job openings available? If competing job openings existed, people would leave McDonalds for those jobs naturally, driving automation through market forces. The minimum wage forces automation when we haven't figured out what we'd do with the extra human labor yet.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/14/2012 9:02:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 6:13:19 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 3/12/2012 10:13:03 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
There are several alternatives employers have to paying the minimum wage.

One is to automate. McDonalds recently introduce a drink machine that stops filling at the right level automatically. This reduces staff by one person for every twelve. Years ago, McDonald's built a prototype completely automated restaurant. It's a cost issue as to how far to automate. Most low-paying jobs can be automated.
Yes, and more automation is a good thing. You're thinking in terms of supply and demand of jobs, when you should really be thinking in terms of supply and demand of labor. The person paying is always on the demand side and the person receiving is always supply side of the transaction. When a job is no longer necessary, it frees up people to do other things. It used to take 50% of our population to grow enough food for us, now it takes ~0.4%. All those other people are now building cars and designing iPods.

But what if there aren't any competing job openings available? If competing job openings existed, people would leave McDonalds for those jobs naturally, driving automation through market forces. The minimum wage forces automation when we haven't figured out what we'd do with the extra human labor yet.

the reason automation doesn't occur in the first place is because its expensive and the material, maintenance and engineering needed in automation is expensive.
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RoyLatham
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3/15/2012 11:55:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 10:13:03 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
Yes, and more automation is a good thing. You're thinking in terms of supply and demand of jobs, when you should really be thinking in terms of supply and demand of labor. The person paying is always on the demand side and the person receiving is always supply side of the transaction. When a job is no longer necessary, it frees up people to do other things. It used to take 50% of our population to grow enough food for us, now it takes ~0.4%. All those other people are now building cars and designing iPods.

If it were true that more automation is always a good thing, then we should raise the minimum wage to $30 an hour. That would put most of the low wage earners out of work. No, automation is only a good thing when it is more efficient than free market labor. If it is forced by artificially high wages, then the overall efficiency of the economy drops. Too much money then goes into building and maintaining machines compared to other uses.

Also, automation is only one of the remedies. For many industries. closing operations and hiring more experienced workers will be the option.

A more productive work force means a stronger economy. How is this bad on the macro-scale? On the micro scale people need to be re-trained, but this is true of any modernization.

It isn't more productive, it's less productive. whatever is more productive happens as a result of market forces. A minimum wage forces the less productive options.

Teens should be in school, I don't care for their level of job opportunity in the least.

You don't get to decide what opportunities other people should have. Working good experience in addition to a source of income.

If the minimum wage is below market rates, there is no effect on employment. In 300 cases of minimum wage increases studied, unemployment did not increase in six of them. In all the others unemployment increased.

I have yet to see evidence that this is not a transient effect. If you have some, I'd love to read it.

So you have studies that show the effects are transient? If it is transient, why don't just raise the minimum wage to $30 per hour, and wait for a year or two for everyone to get rehired? Neither the logic nor the data supports the idea.

The Congressional Research Office produced the compilation of academic papers at the behest of Congress. Apparent the Obama Administration has taken it down.
16kadams
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3/15/2012 11:59:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 11:55:06 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 3/12/2012 10:13:03 AM, Mimshot wrote:
At 3/12/2012 12:15:05 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
Yes, and more automation is a good thing. You're thinking in terms of supply and demand of jobs, when you should really be thinking in terms of supply and demand of labor. The person paying is always on the demand side and the person receiving is always supply side of the transaction. When a job is no longer necessary, it frees up people to do other things. It used to take 50% of our population to grow enough food for us, now it takes ~0.4%. All those other people are now building cars and designing iPods.

If it were true that more automation is always a good thing, then we should raise the minimum wage to $30 an hour. That would put most of the low wage earners out of work. No, automation is only a good thing when it is more efficient than free market labor. If it is forced by artificially high wages, then the overall efficiency of the economy drops. Too much money then goes into building and maintaining machines compared to other uses.

Also, automation is only one of the remedies. For many industries. closing operations and hiring more experienced workers will be the option.


A more productive work force means a stronger economy. How is this bad on the macro-scale? On the micro scale people need to be re-trained, but this is true of any modernization.

It isn't more productive, it's less productive. whatever is more productive happens as a result of market forces. A minimum wage forces the less productive options.

Teens should be in school, I don't care for their level of job opportunity in the least.

You don't get to decide what opportunities other people should have. Working good experience in addition to a source of income.

If the minimum wage is below market rates, there is no effect on employment. In 300 cases of minimum wage increases studied, unemployment did not increase in six of them. In all the others unemployment increased.

I have yet to see evidence that this is not a transient effect. If you have some, I'd love to read it.

So you have studies that show the effects are transient? If it is transient, why don't just raise the minimum wage to $30 per hour, and wait for a year or two for everyone to get rehired? Neither the logic nor the data supports the idea.

The Congressional Research Office produced the compilation of academic papers at the behest of Congress. Apparent the Obama Administration has taken it down.

they took down all of the soruces I used to use :( D: :D:D:D:D:
took down this http://www.cbo.gov...
http://www.house.gov...

They replace it with this crap:

http://www.dol.gov...

Time to spam the white house's email...
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross