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Mitt Romney....

SayWhat
Posts: 47
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5/7/2012 8:25:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Have a look at the Bush years. Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Regulation cuts, regulation cuts, regulation cuts. And then a global recession. Score one for liberals.

And even now, have a look at Europe. Austerity, Austerity, Austerity. And recession. Look at the US. Stimulus, Stimulus, Stimulus. And growth. Score two for liberals.

So then we look at Romney, an outspoken advocate of personal and corporate tax cuts.
WHY????????????
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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5/7/2012 8:27:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Have you ever heard the term correlation causation fallacy? Send me a challenge on the topic: "High taxation and regulations are economically desirable" or cut out the nonsense.
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Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/7/2012 8:31:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The massive tax cuts contributed to massive budget deficits, because there wasn't enough money to fund our budget, and we wouldn't tax accordingly.

Regulation cuts, especially in finance and in subprime mortgages, allowed many people to have such homes, who weren't qualified, and then when they failed to pay their mortgages, CDOs and other financial derivatives failed, crashing Wall Street, and dragging housing down, which itself dragged America into recession.

So yes Romney's policies on tax cuts and regulation (the latter one would be okay if regulation was carefully modernized) seem counter-intuitive.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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5/8/2012 3:19:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 8:25:21 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Have a look at the Bush years. Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Regulation cuts, regulation cuts, regulation cuts. And then a global recession. Score one for liberals.

And even now, have a look at Europe. Austerity, Austerity, Austerity. And recession. Look at the US. Stimulus, Stimulus, Stimulus. And growth. Score two for liberals.

So then we look at Romney, an outspoken advocate of personal and corporate tax cuts.
WHY????????????

This seems appropriate...

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I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/8/2012 7:33:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 11:24:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I challenge you to find one deregulation bill passed under Bush.

Energy Policy Bill of 2005
"Responsible" Lending Act of 2003
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/8/2012 7:41:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://farm3.staticflickr.com...

At 5/7/2012 8:25:21 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Have a look at the Bush years. Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Regulation cuts, regulation cuts, regulation cuts. And then a global recession. Score one for liberals.

The recession had to do with low interest rates which could be argued were set by the Fed and over regulation of the housing market.

And even now, have a look at Europe. Austerity, Austerity, Austerity. And recession. Look at the US. Stimulus, Stimulus, Stimulus. And growth. Score two for liberals.

AUSTERITY? Are you a retard? Europe has one of the highest spendings on welfare, health care, and public services.

The Stimulus did nothing for the economy. As I demonstrated in my debate, recovery was present before the stimulus and the stimulus did nothing to help the economy, if not worsen it. It created artificial demand and even higher deficits.

So then we look at Romney, an outspoken advocate of personal and corporate tax cuts.
WHY????????????
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/8/2012 3:48:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm a bit confused. The fact that tax cuts supposedly failed to help the American economy is a score for liberals, but the fact that tax increases in Europe (yes, much of the European "austerity" has been tax based) hurt the economy is also a score for liberals.

Sounds like somebody is trying to have it both ways.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/8/2012 4:15:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/8/2012 3:48:29 PM, Ameriman wrote:
I'm a bit confused. The fact that tax cuts supposedly failed to help the American economy is a score for liberals, but the fact that tax increases in Europe (yes, much of the European "austerity" has been tax based) hurt the economy is also a score for liberals.

Cause-causality fallacy.

Tax cuts had nothing to do with the recession.

Tax cuts in general are good because they increase incentives for businesses and job creation.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/8/2012 4:46:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/8/2012 4:15:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/8/2012 3:48:29 PM, Ameriman wrote:
I'm a bit confused. The fact that tax cuts supposedly failed to help the American economy is a score for liberals, but the fact that tax increases in Europe (yes, much of the European "austerity" has been tax based) hurt the economy is also a score for liberals.

Cause-causality fallacy.

Tax cuts had nothing to do with the recession.

Tax cuts in general are good because they increase incentives for businesses and job creation.

I agree that reductions in taxes generally help the economy. But, I am simply pointing out an inconsistency in the OP.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
SayWhat
Posts: 47
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5/8/2012 5:44:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes Lordknukle, austerity. Let's look at the UK, for example. Conservative government. New tax cuts. New spending cuts on public assistance and other entitlements. And a double-dip recession. Need another example? Look at Greece.

And to whomever challenged me to the debate "Tax cuts and regulation increases are economically desirable," you are mistaken. I am not advocating these things. I am merely saying that stimulus is more economically desirable than austerity in times of economic downturn.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/8/2012 6:26:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/8/2012 5:44:57 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Yes Lordknukle, austerity. Let's look at the UK, for example. Conservative government. New tax cuts. New spending cuts on public assistance and other entitlements. And a double-dip recession. Need another example? Look at Greece.

LOL. The reason why Greece failed is because of too much spending in the economy and social programs. They were the epitome of the Welfare State. Something like 25% of their citizens were on some kind of welfare program. Obviously, a government cannot keep this up.

These measures in the United Kingdom are to be implemented after the recession, which was because of.....drumroll..... government intervention in the economy such as stimuluses.

And to whomever challenged me to the debate "Tax cuts and regulation increases are economically desirable," you are mistaken. I am not advocating these things. I am merely saying that stimulus is more economically desirable than austerity in times of economic downturn.

Stimuluses prop up artificial demand that does not exist in specific industries. In best case scenarios, they produce short term economic growth. However, any person who knows anything about economics knows that long term growth is more important than short term growth. The problem is that these spending increases can never be decreased because of political in feasibility; "Nothing is more permanent than a temporary government program."

Stimuluses often cause a significant economic downturn after the economy gets better after the artificial demand is replaced for real consumer demand.

Also, markets will restore themselves to equilibrium is you let them operate. Austerity is preferable because it does not allow government intervention in the economy to reduce incentives and block the market from going back to equilibrium. In other words, "The medicine is harsh (austerity), but the patient requires it."
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/8/2012 6:39:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/8/2012 7:33:13 AM, Contra wrote:
At 5/7/2012 11:24:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I challenge you to find one deregulation bill passed under Bush.

Energy Policy Bill of 2005
"Responsible" Lending Act of 2003

The above are regulation bills, not deregulation bills.
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Aaronroy
Posts: 749
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5/10/2012 4:57:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/8/2012 7:41:22 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com...

At 5/7/2012 8:25:21 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Have a look at the Bush years. Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Regulation cuts, regulation cuts, regulation cuts. And then a global recession. Score one for liberals.

The recession had to do with low interest rates which could be argued were set by the Fed and over regulation of the housing market.

...are you f*cking blind?
Jimmy Carter - Community Reinvestment Act --> Deregulated banks and caused the housing market collapse and the mortgage crisis
Barney Frank - Same sh*t --> Less regulation on banks ---> People who aren't qualified to take out mortgages and loans one their houses end up getting loans, they foreclose on the house, housing market once again goes down the sh*tter.
And even now, have a look at Europe. Austerity, Austerity, Austerity. And recession. Look at the US. Stimulus, Stimulus, Stimulus. And growth. Score two for liberals.

AUSTERITY? Are you a retard? Europe has one of the highest spendings on welfare, health care, and public services.

The Stimulus did nothing for the economy. As I demonstrated in my debate, recovery was present before the stimulus and the stimulus did nothing to help the economy, if not worsen it. It created artificial demand and even higher deficits.

Most credible economists are saying that the stimulus stabilized the economy. If the GOP would've allowed for more deficit spending (you know, the kind of spending that helps people, in contrast to the only spending Republicans support ---> military spending.)
So then we look at Romney, an outspoken advocate of personal and corporate tax cuts.
He wants to get the Conservative vote so he has
I can't really recollect when I heard this, but I do remember Romney saying something along the lines of 'In a free market economy, regulations are necessary'. I remember hearing that like maybe 12 years ago or so, but now his stance is the opposite. Flip floppers don't make for favorable candidates.
WHY????????????
Well, he was the King of Bain, and now he wants to be the King of the USA. It's all about power for him.
turn down for h'what
Aaronroy
Posts: 749
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5/10/2012 5:06:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/8/2012 4:15:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/8/2012 3:48:29 PM, Ameriman wrote:
I'm a bit confused. The fact that tax cuts supposedly failed to help the American economy is a score for liberals, but the fact that tax increases in Europe (yes, much of the European "austerity" has been tax based) hurt the economy is also a score for liberals.

Cause-causality fallacy.

Tax cuts had nothing to do with the recession.
Correct, they did not necessarily cause the recession directly. However, the Bush tax cuts included unnecessary tax cuts to upper-class citizens and high-end corporate sectors.

I like to argue that the repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act primarily caused the recession we're in today. The repeal was caused because of the passing of the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, which was primarily yea'd by House and Senate Republicans, and deregulated the economic barriers. High-risk mortgages were combined in packages with low-risk mortgages, and the packages were then given low-risk ratings by the same crooked securities rating companies that were employed by the very banks that were involved in the Ponzi scheme. The banks then sold the fraudulently-rated securities on the open market. In the meantime, the Federal Reserve Bank under Allan Greenspan refused to regulate the dishonest banks.

Tax cuts in general are good because they increase incentives for businesses and job creation.
It depends who the tax cuts are being given to. Generally speaking, small businesses are showing the most interest in job growth and progress.
turn down for h'what
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/10/2012 10:36:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't think Barack Obama understands basic economics.

I'm sure we will see him railing against profits even as profits are absolutely essential to economic prosperity for everyone, jobs shifting even as creative destruction is essential to the capitalist economy, and wealth in general.

Mitt Romney, for all of his flaws, does understand basic economics and has consistently stood for the basic premise that free enterprise and economic freedom are good things.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/20/2012 8:57:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This explains the best combination of government spending and taxes to reduce the debt-to-GDP ratio.
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16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/20/2012 9:09:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 8:25:21 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Have a look at the Bush years. Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Regulation cuts, regulation cuts, regulation cuts. And then a global recession. Score one for liberals.

Regulation cuts? LOL I read a statistic saying he regulates as much as obama has.


And even now, have a look at Europe. Austerity, Austerity, Austerity. And recession. Look at the US. Stimulus, Stimulus, Stimulus. And growth. Score two for liberals.

Austerity brings high taxes too. Further the recession was caused by their debts. Stimulus? LOL. That failed miserably, and the economy stabled before its passage.


So then we look at Romney, an outspoken advocate of personal and corporate tax cuts.
WHY????????????

Because it lowers costs to business so they have less incentives to leave the US.
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/20/2012 9:21:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 8:27:09 PM, thett3 wrote:
Have you ever heard the term correlation causation fallacy? Send me a challenge on the topic: "High taxation and regulations are economically desirable" or cut out the nonsense.

It's certainly desirable for some people more than others.
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/20/2012 8:33:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 9:21:45 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/7/2012 8:27:09 PM, thett3 wrote:
Have you ever heard the term correlation causation fallacy? Send me a challenge on the topic: "High taxation and regulations are economically desirable" or cut out the nonsense.

It's certainly desirable for some people more than others.

Bureaucrats, lobbyists, lawyers, tax specialists, large corporations, smaller regulatory agencies.
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