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What consideration does any bank

lastsliceofpie
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5/12/2012 8:53:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
public or private, give up in their purported "creation" of money ?

**Consideration: something valuable exchanged as part of a contract.**
Dictionary of Banking and Finance, 4th edition, page 76
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
Lordknukle
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5/12/2012 9:02:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The value of money.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
lastsliceofpie
Posts: 21
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5/12/2012 9:20:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The banking system gives up no lawful consideration in their "creation" of money, instead only issuing further evidence (or a secondary representation which cannot equal the former) of what is the first thing of value, which is a promissory obligation that we ourselves issue (which IS money creation)... The banking system is nothing but a 3rd party intervening on our commerce, theyre the producers of nothing (except multiplication of artificial indebtedness)

Banks only publish the evidence of *our* promissory obligations... Our promissory obligations which have lawful consideration of value which are backed by our own labor and production and our own willfull commitment to contribute to pay to the overall pool of wealth... The banking system is simply a printing house who through their control of corrupt governments have usurped our right to issue unexploited promissory obligations.
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
lastsliceofpie
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5/12/2012 9:31:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I should add, that our obligations are (rightly) to pay down and to retire/delete/extinguish paid principal from circulation... not to pay back principal (that was never the banks property) into the unjustified possession of the banking system

Then, and then alone, can money have any integrity
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
lastsliceofpie
Posts: 21
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5/13/2012 8:40:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
^^^^Idk what this means...

"The ruse persists in terminal failure after terminal failure until the unwitting victim class finally rises above the pathological lie that usury is economy, rather than perpetually crying out in terminal stupidity, "Who would ever loan (rent) us *our own* promissory obligations *to each other*, if *our**very own* promissory obligations *to each other* were not subject to ‘interest' upon a falsified debt to someone entirely else?""
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
lastsliceofpie
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5/13/2012 10:24:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why should our natural right to issue an unexploited promissory obligation be usurped by a theiving banking system who gives up no consideration in their purported creation of money

The theiving banks collude together with our criminal governments and deny us representation mandating that we use the banking systems debt instruments, (ie, their paper)

The two monumental crimes of the purported banking system are:

a) that it first launders all principal into its ever unrightful possession; and

b) that it subjects the falsified debts to interest
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
lastsliceofpie
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5/13/2012 10:34:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Whoever contracts to fulfill a debt is ultimately the issuer of their promissory obligation, for the obligation is theirs and would never even otherwise exist, but for their willfull comittment to fullfillment.

The only actual creditors, give up the property which is aquired for these obligations with any risk of the integrity of the resultant currency eliminated only by enforcement of a just and universally enforcable contact.

As the real creditor recieves full payment from the outset of every such arrangement, there is no justifiable claim for interest to exist. These purposed obfuscations of the pretended economies which have been imposed upon the world deny every actual creditor interest.

That only principal and the cost of enforcement (if any) therefore are rightly paid by debtors, and that all payments of principal must be retired from circulation for the fullfillment cancels the obligation from existence.

Paid principal is the rightful property of no one much less is it the property of the mere intervening publishers of our promissory obligations to each other, who only claim to issue credit."
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
lastsliceofpie
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5/13/2012 12:28:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
MPE isnt socialism, communism, capitalism, etc... Its the only true free market there is because all redundant costs are eliminated, the only way to monetize our production so that nobody is ever injured or transgressed upon, its the only economic justice there is because its the only system where were giving up an equal representation of wealth to one another

Unless you (or someone else?) can somehow demonstrate/prove/qualify what consideration a bank (public or private) gives up on the creation of money, or, if there is any other solution to solving: a) inflation/deflation b) inherent irreversible multiplication of artificial indebtedness due to interest and c) manipulations of the cost or value of money or property, than by an eradication of interest and an obligatory schedule of payment retiring principal at a rate equal to the depreciation/consumption of a related property, then your assertion that MPE has been refuted, is just that, an assertion, and not a fact.
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/13/2012 4:44:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
MPE just seems completely incoherent rather than anything. The website just seems to be only slightly above the level of hypertime cube theory.

Like instead of actually learning about MPE, the owner keeps on going on and on how its the superior theory, without really explaining the theory. Then he goes on how "he learned algebra when he was 4" and some ridiculous stuff like that. How he showed it to his math professor, and he agreed that the theory was indisputable. It's like give me a break.

http://www.perfecteconomy.com...

Like lol "the singular integral solution"

"Years before I published these proofs, the thinking was so well received by such distinguished persons as Will McPhee of the math staff of the University of Colorado, that he engaged scores (if not hundreds) of other professors, and several hundred people altogether, to give immediate audience to the proposition; and there was not a dissenting opinion."

You soon realize how full of sh!t this guy is.
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mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/13/2012 5:13:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That website is completely incoherent. He uses his economics teacher not refuting what he says as evidence that he is right. He's got way too much of an ego. Somewhere on there he said he refuted all refutations. Did you ever find where he attempted to refute them? I want to laugh at them.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/13/2012 6:05:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 5:13:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
That website is completely incoherent. He uses his economics teacher not refuting what he says as evidence that he is right. He's got way too much of an ego. Somewhere on there he said he refuted all refutations. Did you ever find where he attempted to refute them? I want to laugh at them.

lol I could tell that the person had an ego from the name of the theory: Mathetmically Perfect Economy, what hubris!

Also, the pink font is a nice choice.
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/13/2012 6:08:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 5:13:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
That website is completely incoherent. He uses his economics teacher not refuting what he says as evidence that he is right. He's got way too much of an ego. Somewhere on there he said he refuted all refutations. Did you ever find where he attempted to refute them? I want to laugh at them.

I don't know where the responses to the refutations are, but these are some refutations: http://axiomaticeconomics.com...
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/13/2012 7:23:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 6:08:16 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/13/2012 5:13:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
That website is completely incoherent. He uses his economics teacher not refuting what he says as evidence that he is right. He's got way too much of an ego. Somewhere on there he said he refuted all refutations. Did you ever find where he attempted to refute them? I want to laugh at them.

I don't know where the responses to the refutations are, but these are some refutations: http://axiomaticeconomics.com...

Yes, I've read a bit of "axiomatic economics" and he's more of the real deal if it comes to "revolutionizing economics".
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mongoose
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5/14/2012 2:26:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 6:05:12 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/13/2012 5:13:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
That website is completely incoherent. He uses his economics teacher not refuting what he says as evidence that he is right. He's got way too much of an ego. Somewhere on there he said he refuted all refutations. Did you ever find where he attempted to refute them? I want to laugh at them.

lol I could tell that the person had an ego from the name of the theory: Mathetmically Perfect Economy (TM), what hubris!

Also, the pink font is a nice choice.

fixed
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Wallstreetatheist
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5/14/2012 1:18:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/14/2012 2:26:52 AM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:05:12 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:

lol I could tell that the person had an ego from the name of the theory: Mathetmically Perfect Economy (TM), what hubris!

Also, the pink font is a nice choice.

fixed

So if a country adopts that economic system without consulting with Mike Montagne to work out an agreement, that country will be sued for copyright infringement? xD
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/14/2012 1:20:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I want to patent the Keynesian semi-socialist economy; I'd be a billionaire!
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MouthWash
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5/14/2012 1:38:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It make you wonder how is Communism not popular anymore!
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
lastsliceofpie
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5/14/2012 5:07:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So, still no real answer what consideration a bank gives up in their purported "creation" of money... and still, nobody, can actually disprove MPE's solution to the faults of (the lie of) todays "economy"?
->no obfuscated currency... we issue unexploited promissory obligations ourselves
->an eradication of interest & obligatory schedule of payment (retiring principal)

"A religious dedication to haplessness simply submits to an ever unjustifiable proposition that a victim class must rent their very own contracts to fulfill their obligations to each other from a mere pretended creditor, subject to entirely falsified terms of perpetually escalated dispossession which are even terminal to the ever unwitting victims' industry and prosperity." o_O
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
mongoose
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5/14/2012 7:32:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The refutations are in your other thread.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/15/2012 11:47:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/14/2012 5:07:25 PM, lastsliceofpie wrote:
So, still no real answer what consideration a bank gives up in their purported "creation" of money... and still, nobody, can actually disprove MPE's solution to the faults of (the lie of) todays "economy"?

http://axiomaticeconomics.com...
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lastsliceofpie
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5/20/2012 12:17:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry, axiomatic economics has not "refuted" MPE, its obvious that the author of that website doesnt understand MPE to a degree where his "refutations" even make any sense.

Most of you guys dont even grasp MPE either Im quite certain, as some of you have even made claims about some (impossible) need for black market loans (?) being a downfall of MPE... There is NO "loans" in MPE... Why would we ever borrow our own contracts to pay from a bank giving up no lawful consideration, when we could issue unexploited promissory obligations (notes) ourselves? If we could get a "loan" today, we would be able to create that money (NOT "loan" it into existence) under MPE.

Someone state an argument "disproving" MPE's singular solution...

Someone explain what consideration a bank gives up in their creation of money...

Clearly express how MPE is inferior to whatever you might advocate...

Dont just post some horrible link claiming to refute MPE (which you dont even comprehend) feeling that settles the discussion... At least take something from its confused pages and point out what you feel it explained.

???
"What they [banks] do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by [the amount of the "loan"]."

~Modern Money Mechanics, A Workbook on Bank Reserves and Deposit Expansion, by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Page 6.
Wallstreetatheist
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5/23/2012 11:38:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 12:17:17 PM, lastsliceofpie wrote:
Sorry, axiomatic economics has not "refuted" MPE, its obvious that the author of that website doesnt understand MPE to a degree where his "refutations" even make any sense.

Name one respected economist who approves of this system.

Most of you guys dont even grasp MPE either Im quite certain, as some of you have even made claims about some (impossible) need for black market loans (?) being a downfall of MPE... There is NO "loans" in MPE... Why would we ever borrow our own contracts to pay from a bank giving up no lawful consideration, when we could issue unexploited promissory obligations (notes) ourselves? If we could get a "loan" today, we would be able to create that money (NOT "loan" it into existence) under MPE.

Involves central planning and does not adequately calculate the economic malinvestments and speculation that will occur when guaranteed loans are issued.

Someone state an argument "disproving" MPE's singular solution...

I posted a link with many refutations to the inane "economic theory."

Someone explain what consideration a bank gives up in their creation of money...

Unintelligible question. Regular banks don't create money; government central banks do. Cross-apply what I said about market money here.

Clearly express how MPE is inferior to whatever you might advocate...

Please open your mind and learn about other economic theories and school of thought, particularly those rooted in the pursuit of truth and reality, namely the Austrian School. [http://mises.org...]
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Lickdafoot
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5/24/2012 12:02:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 9:20:40 PM, lastsliceofpie wrote:
The banking system gives up no lawful consideration in their "creation" of money, instead only issuing further evidence (or a secondary representation which cannot equal the former) of what is the first thing of value, which is a promissory obligation that we ourselves issue (which IS money creation)... The banking system is nothing but a 3rd party intervening on our commerce, theyre the producers of nothing (except multiplication of artificial indebtedness)

Banks only publish the evidence of *our* promissory obligations... Our promissory obligations which have lawful consideration of value which are backed by our own labor and production and our own willfull commitment to contribute to pay to the overall pool of wealth... The banking system is simply a printing house who through their control of corrupt governments have usurped our right to issue unexploited promissory obligations.

yeah.. banks make money out of thin air, deposit into our bank account as a "loan" for our precious schooling or health or whatever, and we pay it back in tenfold with our own earned money. this deception is the backbone of our economical system as it is right now. money used in this way just becomes a concept that detaches us from true wealth and subsequently detaches us from prosperity in many other areas.
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/24/2012 12:09:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/24/2012 12:02:13 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:

yeah.. banks make money out of thin air, deposit into our bank account as a "loan" for our precious schooling or health or whatever, and we pay it back in tenfold with our own earned money. this deception is the backbone of our economical system as it is right now. money used in this way just becomes a concept that detaches us from true wealth and subsequently detaches us from prosperity in many other areas.

I can't tell if you're joking or serious xD
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johnnyboy54
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5/24/2012 12:17:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Anyways, no bank besides the Fed creates money. Rather they accept savings from people with extra money looking to gather interest and lend to people looking for capital. The consideration is different for the separate parties. People who put money in savings accounts earn interest on the money deposited, while borrowers get access to credit and capital.

This is important because it is highly unlikely that lenders and borrowers would find each other without the assistance of a bank. Without banks, people with excess money would have no place to hold their money to earn interest, and borrowers would have no capital to buy property or start business. Essentially, banks are vital to distribute capital from those that have excess cash to those that need cast.
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johnnyboy54
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5/24/2012 12:18:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/24/2012 12:02:13 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 5/12/2012 9:20:40 PM, lastsliceofpie wrote:
The banking system gives up no lawful consideration in their "creation" of money, instead only issuing further evidence (or a secondary representation which cannot equal the former) of what is the first thing of value, which is a promissory obligation that we ourselves issue (which IS money creation)... The banking system is nothing but a 3rd party intervening on our commerce, theyre the producers of nothing (except multiplication of artificial indebtedness)

Banks only publish the evidence of *our* promissory obligations... Our promissory obligations which have lawful consideration of value which are backed by our own labor and production and our own willfull commitment to contribute to pay to the overall pool of wealth... The banking system is simply a printing house who through their control of corrupt governments have usurped our right to issue unexploited promissory obligations.

yeah.. banks make money out of thin air, deposit into our bank account as a "loan" for our precious schooling or health or whatever, and we pay it back in tenfold with our own earned money. this deception is the backbone of our economical system as it is right now. money used in this way just becomes a concept that detaches us from true wealth and subsequently detaches us from prosperity in many other areas.

How do they make money out of thin air? Unless you are talking about the Fed, I know of no bank that can do it.

Anyways, it seems like you have a problem with the existence of interest. I would like to know why. Interest exist to compensate for the future decline in the purchasing power of a dollar. It is also the main means for banks to make any profit. It is essentially the price to borrow money and without interest, no bank would make loans.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.