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Minimul Wage - Pros and Cons

Microsuck
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5/27/2012 7:54:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is a strong issue today and one that I am divided against myself. One side of me says that Minimul wage is necessary to protect the workers from discrimination, purposeful low pay, and minority racism. However, another side says that it does more harm than good.

What is your stance on minimul wage and why?
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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5/27/2012 8:19:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 7:54:27 PM, Microsuck wrote:
This is a strong issue today and one that I am divided against myself. One side of me says that Minimul wage is necessary to protect the workers from discrimination, purposeful low pay, and minority racism. However, another side says that it does more harm than good.

What is your stance on minimul wage and why?

Here's what I have to say about it.

1.3% of the population works at the minimum wage.[1] I don't think in today's environment we would see a negative change if we abolished it.

[1]http://www.bls.gov...
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Ameriman
Posts: 622
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5/27/2012 8:36:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Simple. Minimum wage is telling workers that they cannot work below a certain point.

Yet, for some reason, you can work for free...

But, in reality, the minimum wage leads to higher structural unemployment by distorting the wage market. The only effect is negative.
We spend too much our time measuring compassion for those in needs by measuring inputs. How much money are we spending? How many programs are we creating? But we are not focusing on outcomes. Are these programs working? Are people getting out of poverty?
-Paul Ryan
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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5/27/2012 9:07:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.

Yes. Also, what if someone must get paid $15/hr like the socialists want yet he works like crap and is only worth $3!
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Lordknukle
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5/27/2012 9:08:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:07:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.

Yes. Also, what if someone must get paid $15/hr like the socialists want yet he works like crap and is only worth $3!

Then that person is effectively causing the unemployment of four other people.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
thett3
Posts: 14,349
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5/27/2012 9:11:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Unless you think the government should set a minimum threshold for the price of goods, there is no logical reason that they should st a minimum threshold for the price of services.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Microsuck
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5/27/2012 9:12:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:08:39 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:07:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.

Yes. Also, what if someone must get paid $15/hr like the socialists want yet he works like crap and is only worth $3!

Then that person is effectively causing the unemployment of four other people.

Exactly, which is a major minus. Yet, let's say that you hire me and my work is worth $15/hr but you pay me only $3 because I'm gay and you don't like me because of it.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Strictly speaking, the minimum wage leads to unemployment. The graph on the link shows that:

http://img.sparknotes.com...

But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

I think that with a Negative income tax, a minimum wage wouldn't be necessary, and with programs that promote equal access to opportunity, the minimum wage would be less debated.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
thett3
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5/27/2012 9:14:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:12:54 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:08:39 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:07:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.

Yes. Also, what if someone must get paid $15/hr like the socialists want yet he works like crap and is only worth $3!

Then that person is effectively causing the unemployment of four other people.

Exactly, which is a major minus. Yet, let's say that you hire me and my work is worth $15/hr but you pay me only $3 because I'm gay and you don't like me because of it.

Then you get a new job. He is not obligated to hire you nor pay you well, and you are not obligated to work there. (until you have both signed a contract of course)
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2012 9:14:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:12:54 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:08:39 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:07:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.

Yes. Also, what if someone must get paid $15/hr like the socialists want yet he works like crap and is only worth $3!

Then that person is effectively causing the unemployment of four other people.

Exactly, which is a major minus. Yet, let's say that you hire me and my work is worth $15/hr but you pay me only $3 because I'm gay and you don't like me because of it.

Then you would quit.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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5/27/2012 9:14:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
Strictly speaking, the minimum wage leads to unemployment. The graph on the link shows that:

http://img.sparknotes.com...

But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

I think that with a Negative income tax, a minimum wage wouldn't be necessary, and with programs that promote equal access to opportunity, the minimum wage would be less debated.

Hence the reason I support negative income taxes
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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5/27/2012 9:15:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:14:37 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:12:54 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:08:39 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:07:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.

Yes. Also, what if someone must get paid $15/hr like the socialists want yet he works like crap and is only worth $3!

Then that person is effectively causing the unemployment of four other people.

Exactly, which is a major minus. Yet, let's say that you hire me and my work is worth $15/hr but you pay me only $3 because I'm gay and you don't like me because of it.

Then you would quit.

Not if you were the only employer available.

You see, there needs to be worker protection to prevent the scenario above wothout negatively affecting unemployment--which I don't see a way out of.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
thett3
Posts: 14,349
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5/27/2012 9:17:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:15:58 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:14:37 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:12:54 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:08:39 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:07:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.

Yes. Also, what if someone must get paid $15/hr like the socialists want yet he works like crap and is only worth $3!

Then that person is effectively causing the unemployment of four other people.

Exactly, which is a major minus. Yet, let's say that you hire me and my work is worth $15/hr but you pay me only $3 because I'm gay and you don't like me because of it.

Then you would quit.

Not if you were the only employer available.

You see, there needs to be worker protection to prevent the scenario above wothout negatively affecting unemployment--which I don't see a way out of.

He is not obligated to employ you, or anyone.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2012 9:17:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:15:58 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:14:37 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:12:54 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:08:39 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:07:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 8:52:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
A minimum wage is a price ceiling, plain and simple. When a price ceiling is implemented, a shortage of labour occurs at a price below it because it is illegal to be employ people at that given price. That shortage is unemployment. In strictly economic terms, when a price ceiling is implemented, unemployment goes up.

Yes. Also, what if someone must get paid $15/hr like the socialists want yet he works like crap and is only worth $3!

Then that person is effectively causing the unemployment of four other people.

Exactly, which is a major minus. Yet, let's say that you hire me and my work is worth $15/hr but you pay me only $3 because I'm gay and you don't like me because of it.

Then you would quit.

Not if you were the only employer available.

You see, there needs to be worker protection to prevent the scenario above wothout negatively affecting unemployment--which I don't see a way out of.

If private individuals cannot remediate this issue, then under what pre tense do you think the government can? It's not as if the person is going to say that they pay you less because you are gay. If the employer was willing to buy your services at 1/5 of the price, it is almost guaranteed there will be other employers at higher wages.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2012 9:18:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Microsuck, why can't private individuals discriminate?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2012 9:19:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

This is reflective of your human capital and the resources that you bring to a workplace. There is no reason to believe that a person should be paid more simply because they have less human capital.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/27/2012 9:21:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:14:51 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
Strictly speaking, the minimum wage leads to unemployment. The graph on the link shows that:

http://img.sparknotes.com...

But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

I think that with a Negative income tax, a minimum wage wouldn't be necessary, and with programs that promote equal access to opportunity, the minimum wage would be less debated.

Hence the reason I support negative income taxes

You support the NIT too? Cool. As do I.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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5/27/2012 9:22:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:21:00 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:14:51 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
Strictly speaking, the minimum wage leads to unemployment. The graph on the link shows that:

http://img.sparknotes.com...

But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

I think that with a Negative income tax, a minimum wage wouldn't be necessary, and with programs that promote equal access to opportunity, the minimum wage would be less debated.

Hence the reason I support negative income taxes

You support the NIT too? Cool. As do I.

Yes, especially for low-class families.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Microsuck
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5/27/2012 9:23:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:18:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Microsuck, why can't private individuals discriminate?

I don't understand what you're asking.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/27/2012 9:23:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:19:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

This is reflective of your human capital and the resources that you bring to a workplace. There is no reason to believe that a person should be paid more simply because they have less human capital.

True.

And unions help the middle class get better benefits, leading to a corporate welfare state (Welfare Capitalism).

I understand the logic behind the minimum wage. But still, what has more impact, $2 more an hour or a multi-hundred thousand dollar bonus for the CEO of a company coupled with massive stock and retiree benefits? The average CEO makes 413 times more than the average employee that works for the CEO. In Europe, it's around 13 to 1.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
thett3
Posts: 14,349
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5/27/2012 9:24:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lol @ the negative income tax. Lets pay people for not producing using the income of producers!
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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5/27/2012 9:25:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:23:44 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:19:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

This is reflective of your human capital and the resources that you bring to a workplace. There is no reason to believe that a person should be paid more simply because they have less human capital.

True.

And unions help the middle class get better benefits, leading to a corporate welfare state (Welfare Capitalism).

I understand the logic behind the minimum wage. But still, what has more impact, $2 more an hour or a multi-hundred thousand dollar bonus for the CEO of a company coupled with massive stock and retiree benefits? The average CEO makes 413 times more than the average employee that works for the CEO. In Europe, it's around 13 to 1.

Here are the problems I forsee with welfare cap.:

1) People who are on gov't benefits needs to contribute to society unless they are physically and/or emotionally cannot.
2) If gov't benefits>Work benefits, what's stopping them from stealing the tax payer's money just for more money?
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/27/2012 9:26:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:25:39 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:23:44 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:19:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

This is reflective of your human capital and the resources that you bring to a workplace. There is no reason to believe that a person should be paid more simply because they have less human capital.

True.

And unions help the middle class get better benefits, leading to a corporate welfare state (Welfare Capitalism).

I understand the logic behind the minimum wage. But still, what has more impact, $2 more an hour or a multi-hundred thousand dollar bonus for the CEO of a company coupled with massive stock and retiree benefits? The average CEO makes 413 times more than the average employee that works for the CEO. In Europe, it's around 13 to 1.

Here are the problems I forsee with welfare cap.:

1) People who are on gov't benefits needs to contribute to society unless they are physically and/or emotionally cannot.
2) If gov't benefits>Work benefits, what's stopping them from stealing the tax payer's money just for more money?

I'm not crazy about welfare capitalism.

I support the Welfare State concept, as many others do as well.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2012 9:27:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:23:44 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:19:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

This is reflective of your human capital and the resources that you bring to a workplace. There is no reason to believe that a person should be paid more simply because they have less human capital.

True.

And unions help the middle class get better benefits, leading to a corporate welfare state (Welfare Capitalism).

What is the benefit in them receiving benefits that they do not deserve? It's not as if the corporations have all the power. The workers have bargaining power as individuals, but employing collective bargaining power just makes the workers receive more than the market decides.

I understand the logic behind the minimum wage. But still, what has more impact, $2 more an hour or a multi-hundred thousand dollar bonus for the CEO of a company coupled with massive stock and retiree benefits? The average CEO makes 413 times more than the average employee that works for the CEO. In Europe, it's around 13 to 1.

Stop spouting anti-rich rhetoric. Wages are reflective of the market and the desires of the consumer, you.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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5/27/2012 9:27:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:26:49 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:25:39 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:23:44 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:19:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

This is reflective of your human capital and the resources that you bring to a workplace. There is no reason to believe that a person should be paid more simply because they have less human capital.

True.

And unions help the middle class get better benefits, leading to a corporate welfare state (Welfare Capitalism).

I understand the logic behind the minimum wage. But still, what has more impact, $2 more an hour or a multi-hundred thousand dollar bonus for the CEO of a company coupled with massive stock and retiree benefits? The average CEO makes 413 times more than the average employee that works for the CEO. In Europe, it's around 13 to 1.

Here are the problems I forsee with welfare cap.:

1) People who are on gov't benefits needs to contribute to society unless they are physically and/or emotionally cannot.
2) If gov't benefits>Work benefits, what's stopping them from stealing the tax payer's money just for more money?

I'm not crazy about welfare capitalism.

I support the Welfare State concept, as many others do as well.

Havent read enough on it.
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Contra
Posts: 3,941
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5/27/2012 9:29:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:27:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:23:44 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:19:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

This is reflective of your human capital and the resources that you bring to a workplace. There is no reason to believe that a person should be paid more simply because they have less human capital.

True.

And unions help the middle class get better benefits, leading to a corporate welfare state (Welfare Capitalism).

What is the benefit in them receiving benefits that they do not deserve? It's not as if the corporations have all the power. The workers have bargaining power as individuals, but employing collective bargaining power just makes the workers receive more than the market decides.


I understand the logic behind the minimum wage. But still, what has more impact, $2 more an hour or a multi-hundred thousand dollar bonus for the CEO of a company coupled with massive stock and retiree benefits? The average CEO makes 413 times more than the average employee that works for the CEO. In Europe, it's around 13 to 1.

Stop spouting anti-rich rhetoric. Wages are reflective of the market and the desires of the consumer, you.

Wages are reflective of what the Board of Directors choose. They are often not reflective of the actual job experience. Profit sharing and wage caps on the wealthy helped income rise for the middle class in the 1950s.
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Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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5/27/2012 9:29:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The presence of social safety nets and the absence of a minimum wage would cause a serious abuse of the system.
Sapere Aude!
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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5/27/2012 9:33:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Indeed.

-Captain! Our economy and government favor corporations workers! What do we do?
-*close up* Make our economy favor workers over corporations.

Seems legit.

Honestly though. The problem, as I've said for a long time, is leverage. The beliefs of those like 16k are in favor of a corporatist economy in which the corporations have leverage over, and thus the ability to abuse, workers.

Likewise, Contra and his ilk (term of endearment) seem to favor a world in which the workers have leverage over, and thus the ability to abuse, corporations.

A bit random to the topic at hand, but I just wanted to say it. Been on my mind quite a bit, lately.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2012 9:34:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 9:29:26 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:27:23 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:23:44 PM, Contra wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:19:24 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 5/27/2012 9:13:56 PM, Contra wrote:
But if you make only $16 a day, what is the point of a job? You would be encouraged to get government aid.

This is reflective of your human capital and the resources that you bring to a workplace. There is no reason to believe that a person should be paid more simply because they have less human capital.

True.

And unions help the middle class get better benefits, leading to a corporate welfare state (Welfare Capitalism).

What is the benefit in them receiving benefits that they do not deserve? It's not as if the corporations have all the power. The workers have bargaining power as individuals, but employing collective bargaining power just makes the workers receive more than the market decides.


I understand the logic behind the minimum wage. But still, what has more impact, $2 more an hour or a multi-hundred thousand dollar bonus for the CEO of a company coupled with massive stock and retiree benefits? The average CEO makes 413 times more than the average employee that works for the CEO. In Europe, it's around 13 to 1.

Stop spouting anti-rich rhetoric. Wages are reflective of the market and the desires of the consumer, you.

Wages are reflective of what the Board of Directors choose. They are often not reflective of the actual job experience. Profit sharing and wage caps on the wealthy helped income rise for the middle class in the 1950s.

Income rose for the middle class in the 1950s because the US economy skyrocketed because all other countries were devastated by the war and the US was the sole major competitor in the world remaining. It grew despite all the liberal policies, not because of them.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."