Total Posts:40|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Paul Krugman and the National Debt

SayWhat
Posts: 47
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 8:20:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://m.youtube.com...

If you're willing to watch the whole video, Krugman seems to reinforce this point many, many times: Unemployment is more important than the debt. This simple idea could be the solution to our problems, and many Republicans are failing to realize it. Why do we care about our debt right now? We can worry about our debt once unemployment starts to shrink! Even Willard Romney himself seems to be so intent on balancing the budget that he is forgetting that government spending is a major component of GDP. When you cut a trillion dollars in discretionary spending, there is a ripple effect onto the GDP that ends up hurting everyone. So at this point in time, I feel that the Republicans need to give up a little bit, and allow more stimulus spending. Thoughts?
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 8:54:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
We need stimulus spending especially in the areas of 1) infrastructure and 2) clean energy investment. We need infrastructure spending so the base of the economy is stronger, which would facilitate economic growth and with a stronger education system, people would have more access to opportunity which is key to the American Dream. With massive clean energy investment (domestic) we could become more energy independent and have cleaner air, cleaner water, a better environment, and millions of more well paying high skilled jobs that will make us more competitive in the global economy. But this requires equal access to opportunity which requires a strong education system. That is why I view education as key to opportunity (ha it rhymes) and for a stronger American economy in both domestic economic issues and in global trade zones.

It would require higher taxes, but the Bush tax cuts, if they expired for the wealthy (and slowly phased out for the others) and we simplified and reduced tax rates overall, the tax system would collect billions in more revenue (hundreds of billions estimates range) and it would be more efficient and be a pro-growth policy. A truly more progressive, fair tax system would allow us to invest in America as I described in paragraph 1. And for this progress would make the wealthy pay more of their fair share, which they ultimately got rich because of all of us (infrastructure we payed for) and they are just giving some of it back; so others can have the same opportunity they did. They can keep a big hunk of that money, pay their taxes, and let the market use their product. Win-win.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:08:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 8:20:27 PM, SayWhat wrote:
http://m.youtube.com...

If you're willing to watch the whole video, Krugman seems to reinforce this point many, many times: Unemployment is more important than the debt. This simple idea could be the solution to our problems, and many Republicans are failing to realize it. Why do we care about our debt right now? We can worry about our debt once unemployment starts to shrink! Even Willard Romney himself seems to be so intent on balancing the budget that he is forgetting that government spending is a major component of GDP. When you cut a trillion dollars in discretionary spending, there is a ripple effect onto the GDP that ends up hurting everyone. So at this point in time, I feel that the Republicans need to give up a little bit, and allow more stimulus spending. Thoughts?

Solution- stop going into national debt by paying unemployment benefits. (or any other spending that encourages unemployment)
Purch
Posts: 64
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:11:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why worry about our debt right now? Seriously ? Also I remember he debated Ron Paul about this a while back.

Anyway I'm in favor of short term stimulus after we establish a long term debt reduction plan. A long term debt reduction plan would make people confident to invest in America again and should give the president enough leverage for a short term stimulus to create job growth and reduce unemployment.

But that should happen After we establish a plan that would eliminate at least 4 trillion off the debt over the next 10 years.

The reason why we have to worry about the debt right now/immediately is quite simply because if our debt raises to 20 trillion the world will lose confidence in America. In my opinion the only reason that already hasn't happened completely is because of the failing of the euro zone. Once Europe fixes itself up you better believe the worlds going to look long and hard at Americans inability to confront it's problems.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:12:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The debt is also a component of the economy. If people see the government as unstable, they aren't going to invest in the US economy.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:17:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 9:11:59 PM, Purch wrote:
Why worry about our debt right now? Seriously ? Also I remember he debated Ron Paul about this a while back.

Anyway I'm in favor of short term stimulus after we establish a long term debt reduction plan. A long term debt reduction plan would make people confident to invest in America again and should give the president enough leverage for a short term stimulus to create job growth and reduce unemployment.

But that should happen After we establish a plan that would eliminate at least 4 trillion off the debt over the next 10 years.

The reason why we have to worry about the debt right now/immediately is quite simply because if our debt raises to 20 trillion the world will lose confidence in America. In my opinion the only reason that already hasn't happened completely is because of the failing of the euro zone. Once Europe fixes itself up you better believe the worlds going to look long and hard at Americans inability to confront it's problems.

I fully agree, a long term deficit reduction plan. And the stimulus I described would also strengthen the US economy in the long run with energy, strong infrastructure, a better education system, and a simple but fair tax base — all vital components of a strong economy.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Purch
Posts: 64
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:28:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 9:17:23 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:11:59 PM, Purch wrote:
Why worry about our debt right now? Seriously ? Also I remember he debated Ron Paul about this a while back.

Anyway I'm in favor of short term stimulus after we establish a long term debt reduction plan. A long term debt reduction plan would make people confident to invest in America again and should give the president enough leverage for a short term stimulus to create job growth and reduce unemployment.

But that should happen After we establish a plan that would eliminate at least 4 trillion off the debt over the next 10 years.

The reason why we have to worry about the debt right now/immediately is quite simply because if our debt raises to 20 trillion the world will lose confidence in America. In my opinion the only reason that already hasn't happened completely is because of the failing of the euro zone. Once Europe fixes itself up you better believe the worlds going to look long and hard at Americans inability to confront it's problems.

I fully agree, a long term deficit reduction plan. And the stimulus I described would also strengthen the US economy in the long run with energy, strong infrastructure, a better education system, and a simple but fair tax base — all vital components of a strong economy.

Eh. I hate when the government treats education like a business in which they believe they can just dump money and expect to get results.

The problems with out education system is to complex and filled with to many different issues to just dump money into it.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
Purch
Posts: 64
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:33:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 9:28:54 PM, Purch wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:17:23 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:11:59 PM, Purch wrote:
Why worry about our debt right now? Seriously ? Also I remember he debated Ron Paul about this a while back.

Anyway I'm in favor of short term stimulus after we establish a long term debt reduction plan. A long term debt reduction plan would make people confident to invest in America again and should give the president enough leverage for a short term stimulus to create job growth and reduce unemployment.

But that should happen After we establish a plan that would eliminate at least 4 trillion off the debt over the next 10 years.

The reason why we have to worry about the debt right now/immediately is quite simply because if our debt raises to 20 trillion the world will lose confidence in America. In my opinion the only reason that already hasn't happened completely is because of the failing of the euro zone. Once Europe fixes itself up you better believe the worlds going to look long and hard at Americans inability to confront it's problems.

I fully agree, a long term deficit reduction plan. And the stimulus I described would also strengthen the US economy in the long run with energy, strong infrastructure, a better education system, and a simple but fair tax base — all vital components of a strong economy.

Eh. I hate when the government treats education like a business in which they believe they can just dump money and expect to get results.

The problems with out education system is to complex and filled with to many different issues to just dump money into it.

Spell Check fail o.O
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:43:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 9:28:54 PM, Purch wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:17:23 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:11:59 PM, Purch wrote:
Why worry about our debt right now? Seriously ? Also I remember he debated Ron Paul about this a while back.

Anyway I'm in favor of short term stimulus after we establish a long term debt reduction plan. A long term debt reduction plan would make people confident to invest in America again and should give the president enough leverage for a short term stimulus to create job growth and reduce unemployment.

But that should happen After we establish a plan that would eliminate at least 4 trillion off the debt over the next 10 years.

The reason why we have to worry about the debt right now/immediately is quite simply because if our debt raises to 20 trillion the world will lose confidence in America. In my opinion the only reason that already hasn't happened completely is because of the failing of the euro zone. Once Europe fixes itself up you better believe the worlds going to look long and hard at Americans inability to confront it's problems.

I fully agree, a long term deficit reduction plan. And the stimulus I described would also strengthen the US economy in the long run with energy, strong infrastructure, a better education system, and a simple but fair tax base — all vital components of a strong economy.

Eh. I hate when the government treats education like a business in which they believe they can just dump money and expect to get results.

The problems with out education system is to complex and filled with to many different issues to just dump money into it.

Yeah, I believe to fix education, and this isn't random crap, the results were found by both the Center for American Progress, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, and by findings from Fareed Zakaria and his GPS channel that to improve education;

1) Education funds should be distributed based on student need and focused on closing educational achievement disparities, modernize schools.

2) State and local officials should have flexibility in using funds. Teaching methods should be updated, for example using different teaching techniques instead of pure textbook work.

3) In return for flexibility, receivers and educators are held accountable for increasing student achievement and educational standards.

4) A highly effective education to improve student achievement; a Master's degree for every teacher, limit the power of teacher's unions.

A vibrant, high standards educational system requires reform as I just said. ^
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Purch
Posts: 64
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:55:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 9:43:10 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:28:54 PM, Purch wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:17:23 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:11:59 PM, Purch wrote:
Why worry about our debt right now? Seriously ? Also I remember he debated Ron Paul about this a while back.

Anyway I'm in favor of short term stimulus after we establish a long term debt reduction plan. A long term debt reduction plan would make people confident to invest in America again and should give the president enough leverage for a short term stimulus to create job growth and reduce unemployment.

But that should happen After we establish a plan that would eliminate at least 4 trillion off the debt over the next 10 years.

The reason why we have to worry about the debt right now/immediately is quite simply because if our debt raises to 20 trillion the world will lose confidence in America. In my opinion the only reason that already hasn't happened completely is because of the failing of the euro zone. Once Europe fixes itself up you better believe the worlds going to look long and hard at Americans inability to confront it's problems.

I fully agree, a long term deficit reduction plan. And the stimulus I described would also strengthen the US economy in the long run with energy, strong infrastructure, a better education system, and a simple but fair tax base — all vital components of a strong economy.

Eh. I hate when the government treats education like a business in which they believe they can just dump money and expect to get results.

The problems with out education system is to complex and filled with to many different issues to just dump money into it.

Yeah, I believe to fix education, and this isn't random crap, the results were found by both the Center for American Progress, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, and by findings from Fareed Zakaria and his GPS channel that to improve education;

1) Education funds should be distributed based on student need and focused on closing educational achievement disparities, modernize schools.

2) State and local officials should have flexibility in using funds. Teaching methods should be updated, for example using different teaching techniques instead of pure textbook work.

3) In return for flexibility, receivers and educators are held accountable for increasing student achievement and educational standards.

4) A highly effective education to improve student achievement; a Master's degree for every teacher, limit the power of teacher's unions.

A vibrant, high standards educational system requires reform as I just said. ^

It's not as simple as that though. For instance take de-Segregation of schools, we've basically given up on the fight to integrate our schools even though data shows low income students do significantly better when surround by children of different economic/racial backgrounds. However, middle class families won't send their kid to a bad school jst for diversity, which calls for higher standards for schools in lower income areas that encourage middle class parents to have faith in them. As you clearly can see in the New York times article written 2 weeks ago.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
Purch
Posts: 64
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:06:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.

How can you say school vouchers aren't a good idea, when they've been implemented in Sweden and Norway with great success. These nations are ranked better in education than Finland. They were also working well in Washington DC.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:08:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:06:07 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.

How can you say school vouchers aren't a good idea, when they've been implemented in Sweden and Norway with great success. These nations are ranked better in education than Finland. They were also working well in Washington DC.

I am skeptical, and if this situation was reversed, I would be attacked with "correlation causation fallacy".
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Purch
Posts: 64
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:09:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.


I don't consider either of these " bad idea's" but things that all have to be addressed in the journey towards reform.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:10:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:09:04 PM, Purch wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.


I don't consider either of these " bad idea's" but things that all have to be addressed in the journey towards reform.

Ok, I would be okay with school vouchers, as long as schools can't refuse students, but merit pay is just wrong, for several reasons.

First, newer teachers are not necessarily bad. In fact many are superior. Why should a teacher get their pay based on the status of a child's household's income?
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:11:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:08:19 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:06:07 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.

How can you say school vouchers aren't a good idea, when they've been implemented in Sweden and Norway with great success. These nations are ranked better in education than Finland. They were also working well in Washington DC.

I am skeptical, and if this situation was reversed, I would be attacked with "correlation causation fallacy".

Voucher systems using quasi-market principles. The free market is more effective at allocating goods and services and producing better quality products than the government ever is. Perhaps its not "proof" that the voucher system works, but it is evidence that is unlikely to be harmful, unless of course Sweden and Norway would've done A LOT better without the voucher program.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:13:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:11:44 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:08:19 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:06:07 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.

How can you say school vouchers aren't a good idea, when they've been implemented in Sweden and Norway with great success. These nations are ranked better in education than Finland. They were also working well in Washington DC.

I am skeptical, and if this situation was reversed, I would be attacked with "correlation causation fallacy".

Voucher systems using quasi-market principles. The free market is more effective at allocating goods and services and producing better quality products than the government ever is. Perhaps its not "proof" that the voucher system works, but it is evidence that is unlikely to be harmful, unless of course Sweden and Norway would've done A LOT better without the voucher program.

Okay, you've convinced me to support school vouchers, HOWEVER schools should not have the right to deny students to attend schools, to prevent the tactic of creamskinning.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:16:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:13:25 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:11:44 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:08:19 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:06:07 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.

How can you say school vouchers aren't a good idea, when they've been implemented in Sweden and Norway with great success. These nations are ranked better in education than Finland. They were also working well in Washington DC.

I am skeptical, and if this situation was reversed, I would be attacked with "correlation causation fallacy".

Voucher systems using quasi-market principles. The free market is more effective at allocating goods and services and producing better quality products than the government ever is. Perhaps its not "proof" that the voucher system works, but it is evidence that is unlikely to be harmful, unless of course Sweden and Norway would've done A LOT better without the voucher program.

Okay, you've convinced me to support school vouchers, HOWEVER schools should not have the right to deny students to attend schools, to prevent the tactic of creamskinning.

Why not? MIT and ivy league colleges do it. Students do add externalities. Good students will promote studying. Bad students will bring the class down.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:17:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:16:18 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:13:25 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:11:44 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:08:19 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:06:07 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.

How can you say school vouchers aren't a good idea, when they've been implemented in Sweden and Norway with great success. These nations are ranked better in education than Finland. They were also working well in Washington DC.

I am skeptical, and if this situation was reversed, I would be attacked with "correlation causation fallacy".

Voucher systems using quasi-market principles. The free market is more effective at allocating goods and services and producing better quality products than the government ever is. Perhaps its not "proof" that the voucher system works, but it is evidence that is unlikely to be harmful, unless of course Sweden and Norway would've done A LOT better without the voucher program.

Okay, you've convinced me to support school vouchers, HOWEVER schools should not have the right to deny students to attend schools, to prevent the tactic of creamskinning.

Why not? MIT and ivy league colleges do it. Students do add externalities. Good students will promote studying. Bad students will bring the class down.

Private schools frequently refuse students who come from poorer economic backgrounds based on this premise alone. This is because they usually have lower test scores. It creates a trap. Banning this practice would level the playing field.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:20:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:17:44 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:16:18 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:13:25 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:11:44 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:08:19 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:06:07 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.

How can you say school vouchers aren't a good idea, when they've been implemented in Sweden and Norway with great success. These nations are ranked better in education than Finland. They were also working well in Washington DC.

I am skeptical, and if this situation was reversed, I would be attacked with "correlation causation fallacy".

Voucher systems using quasi-market principles. The free market is more effective at allocating goods and services and producing better quality products than the government ever is. Perhaps its not "proof" that the voucher system works, but it is evidence that is unlikely to be harmful, unless of course Sweden and Norway would've done A LOT better without the voucher program.

Okay, you've convinced me to support school vouchers, HOWEVER schools should not have the right to deny students to attend schools, to prevent the tactic of creamskinning.

Why not? MIT and ivy league colleges do it. Students do add externalities. Good students will promote studying. Bad students will bring the class down.

Private schools frequently refuse students who come from poorer economic backgrounds based on this premise alone. This is because they usually have lower test scores. It creates a trap. Banning this practice would level the playing field.

Well wouldn't most schools just administer a test to get in? How are these schools even gaining access to the parent's income level?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Purch
Posts: 64
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2012 10:25:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:10:55 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:09:04 PM, Purch wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:01:50 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:59:50 PM, Purch wrote:
And to clarify I'm ot disagreeing with you but ot often times education reform seems oversimplified.We're going to have to look at or Charter schools, Private schools and Public schools and really understand what works in certain situations and how to apply that knowledge to overall reform.

Yes I agree. Charter Schools have many of the principles I just suggested and it works brilliantly. They do similar things in Finland as well, and it works awesomely. School vouchers though - not that great of an idea. Merit Pay? Hell no.


I don't consider either of these " bad idea's" but things that all have to be addressed in the journey towards reform.

Ok, I would be okay with school vouchers, as long as schools can't refuse students, but merit pay is just wrong, for several reasons.

First, newer teachers are not necessarily bad. In fact many are superior. Why should a teacher get their pay based on the status of a child's household's income?

I won't say I'm for or against it but quite simply when members of all parties get together and have a serious discussion about education reform the subject will come up when addressing "Teacher accountability", and it's a discussion that needs to happen so we can figure out how to encourage our teachers to make sure we're molding children in a way which allows them to compete with children all across the world.

More Charter schools, More private schools, Better public schools, Vouchers, merit based pay, teachers union, segregation, music and art programs, school hours , unsafe schools, school hours,summer school ext

There's so many issues that have to be looked at when determine how we're gonna approach education over the next couple of decades so instead of just throwing money in we can make smart investmets to secure this countries future.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2012 1:04:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 9:43:10 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:28:54 PM, Purch wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:17:23 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:11:59 PM, Purch wrote:
Why worry about our debt right now? Seriously ? Also I remember he debated Ron Paul about this a while back.

Anyway I'm in favor of short term stimulus after we establish a long term debt reduction plan. A long term debt reduction plan would make people confident to invest in America again and should give the president enough leverage for a short term stimulus to create job growth and reduce unemployment.

But that should happen After we establish a plan that would eliminate at least 4 trillion off the debt over the next 10 years.

The reason why we have to worry about the debt right now/immediately is quite simply because if our debt raises to 20 trillion the world will lose confidence in America. In my opinion the only reason that already hasn't happened completely is because of the failing of the euro zone. Once Europe fixes itself up you better believe the worlds going to look long and hard at Americans inability to confront it's problems.

I fully agree, a long term deficit reduction plan. And the stimulus I described would also strengthen the US economy in the long run with energy, strong infrastructure, a better education system, and a simple but fair tax base — all vital components of a strong economy.

Eh. I hate when the government treats education like a business in which they believe they can just dump money and expect to get results.

The problems with out education system is to complex and filled with to many different issues to just dump money into it.

Yeah, I believe to fix education, and this isn't random crap, the results were found by both the Center for American Progress, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, and by findings from Fareed Zakaria and his GPS channel that to improve education;

1) Education funds should be distributed based on student need and focused on closing educational achievement disparities, modernize schools.

2) State and local officials should have flexibility in using funds. Teaching methods should be updated, for example using different teaching techniques instead of pure textbook work.

3) In return for flexibility, receivers and educators are held accountable for increasing student achievement and educational standards.

4) A highly effective education to improve student achievement; a Master's degree for every teacher, limit the power of teacher's unions.

A vibrant, high standards educational system requires reform as I just said. ^

Having a Master's degree does guarantee that one is a good teacher, and lacking one does not guarantee that one is not. The main problem with your plan is that they give authority to bureaucrats rather than people who have incentives to fix the problems, such as parents. Also, merit pay is not seniority pay. Better teachers would get better pay. A teacher who starts out mediocre, but becomes a lot better will earn a much higher income, thus incentivizing being a better teacher.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Winner2
Posts: 11
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2012 3:30:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Actually, debt reduction is key for economic growth.

Krugman sounds like the old Keynesians who claimed that more inflation meant less unemployment.

That, it turned out, was ridiculous. Low inflation actually means low unemployment in the long run...

In the same note, a smaller debt means less unemployment.
Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2012 11:46:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/8/2012 1:04:01 AM, mongoose wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:43:10 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:28:54 PM, Purch wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:17:23 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/7/2012 9:11:59 PM, Purch wrote:
Why worry about our debt right now? Seriously ? Also I remember he debated Ron Paul about this a while back.

Anyway I'm in favor of short term stimulus after we establish a long term debt reduction plan. A long term debt reduction plan would make people confident to invest in America again and should give the president enough leverage for a short term stimulus to create job growth and reduce unemployment.

But that should happen After we establish a plan that would eliminate at least 4 trillion off the debt over the next 10 years.

The reason why we have to worry about the debt right now/immediately is quite simply because if our debt raises to 20 trillion the world will lose confidence in America. In my opinion the only reason that already hasn't happened completely is because of the failing of the euro zone. Once Europe fixes itself up you better believe the worlds going to look long and hard at Americans inability to confront it's problems.

I fully agree, a long term deficit reduction plan. And the stimulus I described would also strengthen the US economy in the long run with energy, strong infrastructure, a better education system, and a simple but fair tax base — all vital components of a strong economy.

Eh. I hate when the government treats education like a business in which they believe they can just dump money and expect to get results.

The problems with out education system is to complex and filled with to many different issues to just dump money into it.

Yeah, I believe to fix education, and this isn't random crap, the results were found by both the Center for American Progress, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, and by findings from Fareed Zakaria and his GPS channel that to improve education;

1) Education funds should be distributed based on student need and focused on closing educational achievement disparities, modernize schools.

2) State and local officials should have flexibility in using funds. Teaching methods should be updated, for example using different teaching techniques instead of pure textbook work.

3) In return for flexibility, receivers and educators are held accountable for increasing student achievement and educational standards.

4) A highly effective education to improve student achievement; a Master's degree for every teacher, limit the power of teacher's unions.

A vibrant, high standards educational system requires reform as I just said. ^

Having a Master's degree does guarantee that one is a good teacher, and lacking one does not guarantee that one is not.

In Finland all teachers are required to have a Master's degree, which increases teacher pay, increases the respect of teachers, and makes them more effective. Studies have statistically shown that if a student has a teacher with a Master's degree for four consecutive years, he will have equal education access as a middle class student, even thought the child I am mentioning was born in desperate poverty.

The main problem with your plan is that they give authority to bureaucrats rather than people who have incentives to fix the problems, such as parents.

No, it gives authority to the local officials such as teachers and principles and local school boards. Bureaucrats who mange the results of standardized tests wouldn't be needed, nor wanted. But yes, parents need to have an involvement in their child's education, this is critical. But I already told how a highly effective teacher can help students if they suffer from a bad background.

Also, merit pay is not seniority pay. Better teachers would get better pay. A teacher who starts out mediocre, but becomes a lot better will earn a much higher income, thus incentivizing being a better teacher.

They would need a Master's degree. Frequently, a teacher who is fine gets students who come from a poor economic background. And when the student does bad on tests because of their background, you penalize the teacher? If the teacher had the resources and skills I described, I would be more opt to support merit pay.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
Purch
Posts: 64
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2012 5:03:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And another reason I don't throw out the idea of a voucher system is because it works in other countries. The thing that makes us unique is all 50 states are to a certain extent independent and have their own economy and are at completely different places when it comes to their education standards. That being said a voucher system in which more private schools are built and accessible to low income families in a state located on the bible belt might bring higher results across the board since Private schools that are religiously affiliated take away the incentives for evangelicals to homeschool because there isn't as much fear that their child's religion will be violated. Whiles a state like New York benefited from charter schools in area's like Harlem because New York is a great place to raise money to enrich the school, a charter school in Mississippi most likely wouldn't have half the funding as a charter school in Harlem gets from donations.

At the end of the day education reform is the kind of issue where you can't just have one solution over the whole country but you have to examine each state's problem individually.

Maybe an increase in Private schools supported by a strong voucher system works in Utah whiles an increase in Charter schools would benefit New York whiles a full reform of the public school system in California with an increase in teacher accountability would be beneficial to them. Different states will need different solutions so I'm not quick to turn away from any proposed solutions in education reform because what doesn't work In my state may work in another.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 4:52:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/8/2012 5:03:40 PM, Purch wrote:
And another reason I don't throw out the idea of a voucher system is because it works in other countries. The thing that makes us unique is all 50 states are to a certain extent independent and have their own economy and are at completely different places when it comes to their education standards. That being said a voucher system in which more private schools are built and accessible to low income families in a state located on the bible belt might bring higher results across the board since Private schools that are religiously affiliated take away the incentives for evangelicals to homeschool because there isn't as much fear that their child's religion will be violated. Whiles a state like New York benefited from charter schools in area's like Harlem because New York is a great place to raise money to enrich the school, a charter school in Mississippi most likely wouldn't have half the funding as a charter school in Harlem gets from donations.

At the end of the day education reform is the kind of issue where you can't just have one solution over the whole country but you have to examine each state's problem individually.

Maybe an increase in Private schools supported by a strong voucher system works in Utah whiles an increase in Charter schools would benefit New York whiles a full reform of the public school system in California with an increase in teacher accountability would be beneficial to them. Different states will need different solutions so I'm not quick to turn away from any proposed solutions in education reform because what doesn't work In my state may work in another.

nice post
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 6:40:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 8:20:27 PM, SayWhat wrote:
http://m.youtube.com...

If you're willing to watch the whole video, Krugman seems to reinforce this point many, many times: Unemployment is more important than the debt. This simple idea could be the solution to our problems, and many Republicans are failing to realize it. Why do we care about our debt right now? We can worry about our debt once unemployment starts to shrink! Even Willard Romney himself seems to be so intent on balancing the budget that he is forgetting that government spending is a major component of GDP. When you cut a trillion dollars in discretionary spending, there is a ripple effect onto the GDP that ends up hurting everyone. So at this point in time, I feel that the Republicans need to give up a little bit, and allow more stimulus spending. Thoughts?

It's incredibly flawed thinking. I can see that this position is arguable within a certain scale of economy, but there are no limits on this, the sky is the limit. That is to say there is no end to the amount of debt without there being at very least a diminishing return on the investment, not to mention that that diminishing return can go from return to a cost on the economy. There is no accommodation to the limits of his thinking, and as a result the spending pattern becomes completely unsustainable with the associated costs of an astronomical debt.

I don't really believe in absolutes, even though I know they make me and everyone else feel more comfortable, because explanations are simple and easy to understand, but the ramifications of Krugman and Keynesian economics are so far reaching and complicated that the simplicity of its ideals are foreign to a solution to our problem. Every measure made by the Keynesian advocates simply postpones the failures that they're looking to mitigate, and does nothing to address the inherent defects that exist within the governments, institutions, banks and industries they look to subsidize.

This approach lacks logic, and seems to be a necessary component of a larger agenda.