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pro EU

Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/2/2013 7:06:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?

Yap. Maybe nationalism/ patriotism/ unity or something equally indoctrinated, but is there something solid I'm missing?
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 7:08:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:06:13 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?

Yap. Maybe nationalism/ patriotism/ unity or something equally indoctrinated, but is there something solid I'm missing?

A lot of libertarians on here. Maybe they're just really pro-Euro or something.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/2/2013 7:11:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:08:05 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:06:13 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?

Yap. Maybe nationalism/ patriotism/ unity or something equally indoctrinated, but is there something solid I'm missing?

A lot of libertarians on here. Maybe they're just really pro-Euro or something.

How does the fact that you are bound to a single currency used by different countries with their different socio political relities, essentially tying the fate of a lot of countries together- fit in with libertarianism? It is a whole new lot of coercion.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/2/2013 7:12:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You can just look at the comments sections yourself on the European Union on why people are pro-EU. It seems like a lot of the reasoning seems to be based on peace.

I think one can make the argument though that the European Union creates a powerful political force, that can be used to fight against US hegemony or future superpowers (China, India, Brazil, Russia).
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/2/2013 7:14:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:12:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
You can just look at the comments sections yourself on the European Union on why people are pro-EU. It seems like a lot of the reasoning seems to be based on peace.

I think one can make the argument though that the European Union creates a powerful political force, that can be used to fight against US hegemony or future superpowers (China, India, Brazil, Russia).

Peace. Yeah sure. Maybe the political force point has some merit, though. As long as they dont have to rely on other countries to pull thm out of their impending crises, it's all powerful. True.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 7:28:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:11:19 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:08:05 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:06:13 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?

Yap. Maybe nationalism/ patriotism/ unity or something equally indoctrinated, but is there something solid I'm missing?

A lot of libertarians on here. Maybe they're just really pro-Euro or something.

How does the fact that you are bound to a single currency used by different countries with their different socio political relities, essentially tying the fate of a lot of countries together- fit in with libertarianism? It is a whole new lot of coercion.

It's their logic. Libertarians seem to be very pro-Euro, in my experience.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 7:29:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:12:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
You can just look at the comments sections yourself on the European Union on why people are pro-EU. It seems like a lot of the reasoning seems to be based on peace.

I think one can make the argument though that the European Union creates a powerful political force, that can be used to fight against US hegemony or future superpowers (China, India, Brazil, Russia).

Ho ho! Europe can't even currently agree on a united strategy against Russia.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/2/2013 7:30:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:28:32 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:11:19 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:08:05 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:06:13 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?

Yap. Maybe nationalism/ patriotism/ unity or something equally indoctrinated, but is there something solid I'm missing?

A lot of libertarians on here. Maybe they're just really pro-Euro or something.

How does the fact that you are bound to a single currency used by different countries with their different socio political relities, essentially tying the fate of a lot of countries together- fit in with libertarianism? It is a whole new lot of coercion.

It's their logic. Libertarians seem to be very pro-Euro, in my experience.

I doubt that many of the libertarains on DDO are pro-Euro. I'm con on the EU. The justifications for the EU seem to be mainly based on political grounds and international relations, which I think libertarians tend to ignore in their analysis.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/2/2013 7:40:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The European Union has the goal to unite European countries. The single currency was a mistake, but keep in mind that a European superstate is likely to be in sight.

The smaller states benefit a lot from having more free trade, increased tourism, and protection that their own armies might not offer their people.

Conflict is also kept away. Countries like Serbia won't send soldiers over their own borders again. Even their radical right, who have opposed EU constantly, are now doing huge amounts of work to get into the union. See the Bruxelles agreement on Kosovo.

Nonetheless, the lack of transparency on EU politics, liberal-leaning agenda, etc., are all factors that should cause some worrying.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 7:41:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:30:59 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:28:32 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:11:19 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:08:05 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:06:13 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?

Yap. Maybe nationalism/ patriotism/ unity or something equally indoctrinated, but is there something solid I'm missing?

A lot of libertarians on here. Maybe they're just really pro-Euro or something.

How does the fact that you are bound to a single currency used by different countries with their different socio political relities, essentially tying the fate of a lot of countries together- fit in with libertarianism? It is a whole new lot of coercion.

It's their logic. Libertarians seem to be very pro-Euro, in my experience.

I doubt that many of the libertarains on DDO are pro-Euro. I'm con on the EU. The justifications for the EU seem to be mainly based on political grounds and international relations, which I think libertarians tend to ignore in their analysis.

No, they reject the concept of politics and advocate a universe predicated on their dubious natural rights.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/2/2013 7:43:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:41:21 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:30:59 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:28:32 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:11:19 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:08:05 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:06:13 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?

Yap. Maybe nationalism/ patriotism/ unity or something equally indoctrinated, but is there something solid I'm missing?

A lot of libertarians on here. Maybe they're just really pro-Euro or something.

How does the fact that you are bound to a single currency used by different countries with their different socio political relities, essentially tying the fate of a lot of countries together- fit in with libertarianism? It is a whole new lot of coercion.

It's their logic. Libertarians seem to be very pro-Euro, in my experience.

I doubt that many of the libertarains on DDO are pro-Euro. I'm con on the EU. The justifications for the EU seem to be mainly based on political grounds and international relations, which I think libertarians tend to ignore in their analysis.

No, they reject the concept of politics and advocate a universe predicated on their dubious natural rights.

Hah. Thank god we have you as our spokesperson.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 7:43:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:40:26 PM, Mirza wrote:
The European Union has the goal to unite European countries. The single currency was a mistake, but keep in mind that a European superstate is likely to be in sight.

The smaller states benefit a lot from having more free trade, increased tourism, and protection that their own armies might not offer their people.

Conflict is also kept away. Countries like Serbia won't send soldiers over their own borders again. Even their radical right, who have opposed EU constantly, are now doing huge amounts of work to get into the union. See the Bruxelles agreement on Kosovo.

http://www.lexido.com...
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/2/2013 7:48:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:40:26 PM, Mirza wrote:
The European Union has the goal to unite European countries. The single currency was a mistake, but keep in mind that a European superstate is likely to be in sight.

The smaller states benefit a lot from having more free trade, increased tourism, and protection that their own armies might not offer their people.

Conflict is also kept away. Countries like Serbia won't send soldiers over their own borders again. Even their radical right, who have opposed EU constantly, are now doing huge amounts of work to get into the union. See the Bruxelles agreement on Kosovo.

Nonetheless, the lack of transparency on EU politics, liberal-leaning agenda, etc., are all factors that should cause some worrying.

This is interesting. Most of my reservations about EU are based on the atrocious economic implications of a single currency. But having a strong political unit is a powerful weapon, I'll have to agree on that. Separating both the functions seem kind of redundant now, though.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 8:27:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Like I said, Europe can't even agree on a basic foreign policy. European superstate? (OMGlol)

Europe more divided than it has ever been in the post-WWII era, and anyone who believes that they are on the verge of creating a single state, well, perhaps they should up their dosage. Maybe they can imagine that Arabs and Jews are getting along perfectly! Even the most optimistic politicians and strategists realize the impossibility of anything more than a confederation. Nasser understood the same thing about Pan-Arabism, and yet he pretended to have a single Arab state as his goal. It's the definition of rhetoric.

I personally enjoyed this lecture on Europe (skip to 2:50):

I found it very clear and eloquent, and Friedman is excellent at delivering complicated ideas to laymen.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/2/2013 8:44:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 8:27:47 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
European superstate? (OMGlol)
I don't think you get the concept -- a superstate isn't akin to the union of the US. It simply means a more centralized form of governing the individual states. That could be more unified armies.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 9:03:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 8:44:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/2/2013 8:27:47 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
European superstate? (OMGlol)
I don't think you get the concept -- a superstate isn't akin to the union of the US. It simply means a more centralized form of governing the individual states. That could be more unified armies.

You should have clarified. The word "state" implies centralization to me.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/2/2013 9:06:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It makes vacationing in Europe easier.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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7/2/2013 9:51:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

That is like saying "I can't think of a single credible reason why someone would be Pro US". It is essentially the same thing.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/2/2013 9:54:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think I'm one of the few libertarians that are truly internationalist/globalist on this site, so I support the European Union on the whole.

I know for sure I'm probably one of the only ones who wouldn't mind a world government.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
jimtimmy2
Posts: 403
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7/2/2013 10:02:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Pro EU is not the libertarian position, for obvious reasons.

What has happened is that many statist, keynesian economists have flipped from Pro EU to Anti EU because the EU does endorse monetary and fiscal austerity.

Some libertarians, unfortunately, have let their knee jerk opposition to keynesian theory get in the way of solid analysis. I think keynesian economics is incorrect, but, for the wrong reasons, they flipped to the correct position on the EU.
shenjie
Posts: 17
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7/5/2013 12:48:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/9/2013 3:01:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 7:11:19 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:08:05 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 7:06:13 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:58:43 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:56:50 PM, Cermank wrote:
53% of the people on the site are pro-EU. I can't think of a single credible reason.

For being pro-EU?

Yap. Maybe nationalism/ patriotism/ unity or something equally indoctrinated, but is there something solid I'm missing?

A lot of libertarians on here. Maybe they're just really pro-Euro or something.

How does the fact that you are bound to a single currency used by different countries with their different socio political relities, essentially tying the fate of a lot of countries together- fit in with libertarianism? It is a whole new lot of coercion.

Personally, I don't have an opinion on this subject.

My understanding of Europeans on this matter is that they are for political union, and see the EU as a stepping stone to such an eventuality. My opinion on this specifically is that the US will do whatever it can to prevent such an union for hegemonic reasons.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?