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Price Elasticity of Demand for McDonalds

ClassicRobert
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8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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8/8/2013 12:04:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!

Planning on cornering the burger industry Bobert?
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/8/2013 12:09:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 12:04:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!

Planning on cornering the burger industry Bobert?

Nah, this one liberal friend of mine said that he wanted to raise the price of the burgers about 10 cents per the dollar. He did some math showing that they would still be making significant profits, but I told him that it didn't account for elasticity, and I'm curious how much of a difference the elasticity would make.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/8/2013 1:57:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 12:09:20 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:04:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!

Planning on cornering the burger industry Bobert?

Nah, this one liberal friend of mine said that he wanted to raise the price of the burgers about 10 cents per the dollar. He did some math showing that they would still be making significant profits, but I told him that it didn't account for elasticity, and I'm curious how much of a difference the elasticity would make.

Depends on how elastic it is.

Elasticity = % Change in quantity / % change in Price
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
CarefulNow
Posts: 780
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8/8/2013 2:51:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales.

I'm curious why you go straight to price elasticity of demand for the product, as if price were a simple function of cost and cost a simple function of input prices. In the first place, there is a price elasticity of quality, in this case a wage elasticity of productivity (or, if you prefer, it's not a wage increase at all, but a substitution of more productive, $15 labor-hours for less productive, $9 labor-hours). It's not only that $15 attracts and retains higher quality workers than $9; it's that, for $15, a given worker is willing to work more intensely, less comfortably, farther from home, less regular and convenient hours, etc., than he would for $9.

Additionally, the wage hike is to the employer an incentive not to trade; and while one often hears that this reduces demand and sometimes even that the least productive workers are the first to go, what escapes attention is that this threat of unemployment induces productivity, often as an alternative to said threat's complete realization. That's not to say a wage increase wouldn't add to costs, just that it wouldn't necessarily be on the order of old labor costs times new wage divided by old wage.

As for the relationship between cost and price, it's simple enough for perfect competition, but fast-food restaurants are in fact in monopolistic competition, offering different products at different locations (even a mile out of one's way is a significant price to pay to get a better deal on a dollar item).

Finally, as the idea is a living wage for fast food workers generally, the appropriate elasticity of demand would be for fast food generally, which is undoubtedly less than for McDonald's food specifically.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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8/8/2013 3:07:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 2:51:07 PM, CarefulNow wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales.

I'm curious why you go straight to price elasticity of demand for the product, as if price were a simple function of cost and cost a simple function of input prices. In the first place, there is a price elasticity of quality, in this case a wage elasticity of productivity (or, if you prefer, it's not a wage increase at all, but a substitution of more productive, $15 labor-hours for less productive, $9 labor-hours). It's not only that $15 attracts and retains higher quality workers than $9; it's that, for $15, a given worker is willing to work more intensely, less comfortably, farther from home, less regular and convenient hours, etc., than he would for $9.

Additionally, the wage hike is to the employer an incentive not to trade; and while one often hears that this reduces demand and sometimes even that the least productive workers are the first to go, what escapes attention is that this threat of unemployment induces productivity, often as an alternative to said threat's complete realization. That's not to say a wage increase wouldn't add to costs, just that it wouldn't necessarily be on the order of old labor costs times new wage divided by old wage.

As for the relationship between cost and price, it's simple enough for perfect competition, but fast-food restaurants are in fact in monopolistic competition, offering different products at different locations (even a mile out of one's way is a significant price to pay to get a better deal on a dollar item).

Finally, as the idea is a living wage for fast food workers generally, the appropriate elasticity of demand would be for fast food generally, which is undoubtedly less than for McDonald's food specifically.

I ask because he linked me to this video

He recommends increasing the price of the dollar burger by ten cents, and does some math to show the profit decrease. He didn't take into account the decrease in sales, and I'm curious as to roughly how much sales could be expected to drop.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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8/8/2013 5:24:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).

McDonald's estimates 550 million Big Macs are sold each year in the U.S. alone.
http://www.cbsnews.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/8/2013 6:18:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 5:24:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).

McDonald's estimates 550 million Big Macs are sold each year in the U.S. alone.
http://www.cbsnews.com...

Yeah, that doesn't help. The point is to measure the change in units moved, so I can compare it to change in price. Nominal sales won't help, nor would that 550 million estimate.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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8/8/2013 6:19:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 6:18:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 5:24:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).

McDonald's estimates 550 million Big Macs are sold each year in the U.S. alone.
http://www.cbsnews.com...

Yeah, that doesn't help. The point is to measure the change in units moved, so I can compare it to change in price. Nominal sales won't help, nor would that 550 million estimate.

Then you should specify that you're looking for year-on-year change. Keep working on clarity.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/8/2013 6:31:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 6:19:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:18:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 5:24:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).

McDonald's estimates 550 million Big Macs are sold each year in the U.S. alone.
http://www.cbsnews.com...

Yeah, that doesn't help. The point is to measure the change in units moved, so I can compare it to change in price. Nominal sales won't help, nor would that 550 million estimate.

Then you should specify that you're looking for year-on-year change. Keep working on clarity.

I did when I said "Elasticity = % Change in quantity / % change in Price"
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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8/8/2013 7:13:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 6:31:09 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:19:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:18:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 5:24:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).

McDonald's estimates 550 million Big Macs are sold each year in the U.S. alone.
http://www.cbsnews.com...

Yeah, that doesn't help. The point is to measure the change in units moved, so I can compare it to change in price. Nominal sales won't help, nor would that 550 million estimate.

Then you should specify that you're looking for year-on-year change. Keep working on clarity.

I did when I said "Elasticity = % Change in quantity / % change in Price"

"I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price"

Notice how when you supposedly "clarified" you did not mention anything about changes in price over period of time. Just pointing this out to you. Please do not be difficult and just accept the criticism as an attempt to help you communicate in a clearer fashion. Again, keep working on clarity.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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8/8/2013 7:25:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 7:13:08 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:31:09 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:19:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:18:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 5:24:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).

McDonald's estimates 550 million Big Macs are sold each year in the U.S. alone.
http://www.cbsnews.com...

Yeah, that doesn't help. The point is to measure the change in units moved, so I can compare it to change in price. Nominal sales won't help, nor would that 550 million estimate.

Then you should specify that you're looking for year-on-year change. Keep working on clarity.

I did when I said "Elasticity = % Change in quantity / % change in Price"

"I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences)."

Notice how when you supposedly "clarified" you did not mention anything about changes in price over period of time. Just pointing this out to you. Please do not be difficult and just accept the criticism as an attempt to help you communicate in a clearer fashion. Again, keep working on clarity.

A.) The OP already knew there needs to be more than 1 data set

B.) You cut off the quote. I clearly mentioned 2 data sets. You cannot have "differences" with only 1 data set.

C.) I originally said "If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand by the change in the price and the demand."

D.) You are just trolling me. You purposely gave me 1 data-set, knowing I needed 2, just to start a flame war. Please stop harassing me. You should not use your personal vendetta against me as an excuse to derail someone's thread. I see through your BS, and I won't tolerate it.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
wrichcirw
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8/8/2013 7:32:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 7:25:00 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:13:08 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:31:09 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:19:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:18:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 5:24:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).

McDonald's estimates 550 million Big Macs are sold each year in the U.S. alone.
http://www.cbsnews.com...

Yeah, that doesn't help. The point is to measure the change in units moved, so I can compare it to change in price. Nominal sales won't help, nor would that 550 million estimate.

Then you should specify that you're looking for year-on-year change. Keep working on clarity.

I did when I said "Elasticity = % Change in quantity / % change in Price"

"I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences)."

Notice how when you supposedly "clarified" you did not mention anything about changes in price over period of time. Just pointing this out to you. Please do not be difficult and just accept the criticism as an attempt to help you communicate in a clearer fashion. Again, keep working on clarity.

A.) The OP already knew there needs to be more than 1 data set

B.) You cut off the quote. I clearly mentioned 2 data sets. You cannot have "differences" with only 1 data set.

C.) I originally said "If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand by the change in the price and the demand."

D.) You are just trolling me. You purposely gave me 1 data-set, knowing I needed 2, just to start a flame war. Please stop harassing me. You should not use your personal vendetta against me as an excuse to derail someone's thread. I see through your BS, and I won't tolerate it.

I read the OP, enough information to see that you needed something different, and fully met the parameters in your "specification". You didn't ask for multiple data sets, you asked specifically for "data for Burgers sold". I provided exactly that.

You then say it's not good because of even more additional specifications, to which I asked that you not be "difficult".

For that, you become "difficult". Too bad. This topic looked promising.

I have no vendetta against you. This is not your topic, and I am interested in seeing the OP's question answered. You however are being your typically annoying self at this point.

You can continue to be difficult if you want. No one can stop you apparently.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
CarefulNow
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8/8/2013 7:35:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 3:07:15 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
He recommends increasing the price of the dollar burger by ten cents, and does some math to show the profit decrease. He didn't take into account the decrease in sales, and I'm curious as to roughly how much sales could be expected to drop.

But he's responding to the fast food lobby's insistence that burger prices would be forced up to $9, not just McDonald's. If the price increase is industry-wide, you have to use the commodity's PED, not the far higher PED of the brand, even if you're only interested in the effect on demand for the brand. The brand PED is informed by the substitution of Burger King burgers for McDonald's burgers, for example, which would not be an effect of an industry-wide price increase. Customers would instead have to make worse substitutions, grinders instead of burgers, for instance, or tolerate the price increase. But that's still fast food, and it's unlikely that the fast food lobby's position is that an increase in the wage will increase only burger prices. So the relevant substitution is more like diners or grocery stores instead of fast food.

The appropriate PED is thus the fast food PED, .5 (http://www.yaleruddcenter.org...). The video's living wage with 10c price increase would thus reduce hourly sales to 100-.5*.1/1=95, increase hourly profits to $1.10*95-6(suspending disbelief that the higher wages had no effect on productivity and the reduced sales had no effect on the amount of work to be done)*$11=$38.50. Note that $38.50 is actually greater than his figure of $34. That's because he made an arithmetical error that overcompensates for his failure to factor in elasticity (as long as PED<1): "$110-6x$11=$34" should be $44; $34 would be if there were no price change.
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8/8/2013 7:39:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Regardless, what the OP is looking for is most likely a carefully guarded trade secret. So, I sincerely doubt that the data is available publicly.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
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8/8/2013 7:41:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 7:32:45 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:25:00 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:13:08 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:31:09 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:19:55 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 6:18:13 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 5:24:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 2:04:19 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 12:02:56 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
At 8/7/2013 10:57:22 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
I'm posting this as a challenge... can any of you guys find out what the price elasticity of demand is for a Big Mac, or say, a dollar menu burger? With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage, I'm curious how the increase in price would effect sales. I'm pretty sure that the burgers are highly elastic, given the amount of competition that McDonalds has. I'm just curious how much.

There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand backed the the change in the price and the demand.

I found a couple of graphs for big macs. They don't seem to be too large scale, so I don't know how useful they will be.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com...

http://seekingalpha.com...

http://www.zerohedge.com...

Thanks!
OK maybe I should have been more clear. This was my bad for not specifying. I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences).

McDonald's estimates 550 million Big Macs are sold each year in the U.S. alone.
http://www.cbsnews.com...

Yeah, that doesn't help. The point is to measure the change in units moved, so I can compare it to change in price. Nominal sales won't help, nor would that 550 million estimate.

Then you should specify that you're looking for year-on-year change. Keep working on clarity.

I did when I said "Elasticity = % Change in quantity / % change in Price"

"I need data on Burgers sold, in units of quantity (not price). How many units of burgers did they move, not taking into consideration the price (otherwise I would have to backtrack and calculate the inflationary differences)."

Notice how when you supposedly "clarified" you did not mention anything about changes in price over period of time. Just pointing this out to you. Please do not be difficult and just accept the criticism as an attempt to help you communicate in a clearer fashion. Again, keep working on clarity.

A.) The OP already knew there needs to be more than 1 data set

B.) You cut off the quote. I clearly mentioned 2 data sets. You cannot have "differences" with only 1 data set.

C.) I originally said "If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand by the change in the price and the demand."

D.) You are just trolling me. You purposely gave me 1 data-set, knowing I needed 2, just to start a flame war. Please stop harassing me. You should not use your personal vendetta against me as an excuse to derail someone's thread. I see through your BS, and I won't tolerate it.

I read the OP, enough information to see that you needed something different, and fully met the parameters in your "specification". You didn't ask for multiple data sets, you asked specifically for "data for Burgers sold". I provided exactly that.

You then say it's not good because of even more additional specifications, to which I asked that you not be "difficult".

For that, you become "difficult". Too bad. This topic looked promising.

I have no vendetta against you. This is not your topic, and I am interested in seeing the OP's question answered. You however are being your typically annoying self at this point.

You can continue to be difficult if you want. No one can stop you apparently.

Please explain how you can use 1 data set to show "change". You cannot make a differential equation without multiple data sets.

Even though I was not the OP, you responded to me, not to the OP. Just because I am not the OP, does not mean you were not responding to me. You haven't addressed the OP once. You made 4 posts in this thread, all of which were a response to something I said.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
wrichcirw
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8/8/2013 7:43:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 7:41:40 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:32:45 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Please explain how you can use 1 data set to show "change". You cannot make a differential equation without multiple data sets.

I didn't know you were asking for change, because you didn't specify that you needed data from a set time frame anywhere in any of your comments.

Even though I was not the OP, you responded to me, not to the OP. Just because I am not the OP, does not mean you were not responding to me. You haven't addressed the OP once. You made 4 posts in this thread, all of which were a response to something I said.

Blah blah blah. Quit bitching.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
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8/8/2013 7:55:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 7:43:31 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:41:40 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand by the change in the price and the demand.
Please explain how you can use 1 data set to show "change". You cannot make a differential equation without multiple data sets.

I didn't know you were asking for change, because you didn't specify that you needed data from a set time frame anywhere in any of your comments.

Look at my 1st comment dude.


Even though I was not the OP, you responded to me, not to the OP. Just because I am not the OP, does not mean you were not responding to me. You haven't addressed the OP once. You made 4 posts in this thread, all of which were a response to something I said.

Blah blah blah. Quit bitching.

Real Mature. Please go troll someone else.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
CarefulNow
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8/8/2013 7:57:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 7:39:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
Regardless, what the OP is looking for is most likely a carefully guarded trade secret. So, I sincerely doubt that the data is available publicly.

What the OP is looking for is first and foremost the relevant PED, which is not only publicly available, but linked to in my last post. That the OP mistakenly thought the relevant PEDs were those of specific McDonald's products is of secondary importance.
wrichcirw
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8/8/2013 8:00:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 7:55:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:43:31 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:41:40 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand by the change in the price and the demand.
Please explain how you can use 1 data set to show "change". You cannot make a differential equation without multiple data sets.

I didn't know you were asking for change, because you didn't specify that you needed data from a set time frame anywhere in any of your comments.

Look at my 1st comment dude.

Again, work on clarity. You didn't ask for data indicating change, you PROVIDED data indicating change. I didn't know you needed additional data on price changes because you didn't ask for any.

Real Mature. Please go troll someone else.

No one is trolling. You're just being a bitch at this point. Not exactly trolling, but not exactly constructive either.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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8/8/2013 8:03:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 7:57:48 PM, CarefulNow wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:39:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
Regardless, what the OP is looking for is most likely a carefully guarded trade secret. So, I sincerely doubt that the data is available publicly.

What the OP is looking for is first and foremost the relevant PED, which is not only publicly available, but linked to in my last post. That the OP mistakenly thought the relevant PEDs were those of specific McDonald's products is of secondary importance.

The only one mistaken about the OP is you I'm afraid. The OP specifically asked for PED of Mcdonald's products, not food in general as per your source.

Again, PED for MCD's products is more than likely a closely guarded trade secret.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DanT
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8/8/2013 8:06:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 8:00:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:55:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:43:31 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:41:40 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand by the change in the price and the demand.
Please explain how you can use 1 data set to show "change". You cannot make a differential equation without multiple data sets.

I didn't know you were asking for change, because you didn't specify that you needed data from a set time frame anywhere in any of your comments.

Look at my 1st comment dude.

Again, work on clarity. You didn't ask for data indicating change, you PROVIDED data indicating change. I didn't know you needed additional data on price changes because you didn't ask for any.

Actually I did.
Real Mature. Please go troll someone else.

No one is trolling. You're just being a bitch at this point. Not exactly trolling, but not exactly constructive either.

You attacked me, than claim I'm the one being a bitch? Yup, you are definitely trolling.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
wrichcirw
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8/8/2013 8:08:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 8:06:37 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 8:00:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:55:10 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:43:31 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:41:40 PM, DanT wrote:
At 8/8/2013 11:17:59 AM, DanT wrote:
There is no nominal price fluctuations in the dollar menu, so you would have to use real price.

As for the big mac, I found a list of price changes between 1955 and 2007;
http://www.foodtimeline.org...

If you meet me half way and find a list of sales for big macs and dollar menu burgers, I would be able to calculate the real and nominal price elasticity of demand by the change in the price and the demand.
Please explain how you can use 1 data set to show "change". You cannot make a differential equation without multiple data sets.

I didn't know you were asking for change, because you didn't specify that you needed data from a set time frame anywhere in any of your comments.

Look at my 1st comment dude.

Again, work on clarity. You didn't ask for data indicating change, you PROVIDED data indicating change. I didn't know you needed additional data on price changes because you didn't ask for any.

Actually I did.

Rofl, ok. "DanT is always right".

Real Mature. Please go troll someone else.

No one is trolling. You're just being a bitch at this point. Not exactly trolling, but not exactly constructive either.

You attacked me, than claim I'm the one being a bitch? Yup, you are definitely trolling.

Wow. I see why you continually think I have a "vendetta" against you. I give you constructive criticism (WORK ON CLARITY) and you take it as a personal attack. K bro. "DanT is always right".
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
CarefulNow
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8/8/2013 9:51:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 8:03:07 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:57:48 PM, CarefulNow wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:39:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
Regardless, what the OP is looking for is most likely a carefully guarded trade secret. So, I sincerely doubt that the data is available publicly.

What the OP is looking for is first and foremost the relevant PED, which is not only publicly available, but linked to in my last post. That the OP mistakenly thought the relevant PEDs were those of specific McDonald's products is of secondary importance.

The only one mistaken about the OP is you I'm afraid. The OP specifically asked for PED of Mcdonald's products, not food in general as per your source.

My source provides PEDs for several food categories, yes, and I cited the relevant one, fast food PED. The OP identifies the purpose to be predicting the effect on (McDonald's, not yet confirmed to be "just an example") sales of a living wage-induced increase in price: "With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage [which is understood to be for all fast food workers by all who talk about it], I'm curious how the increase in price [which is predicted to be fast food industry-wide by all who predict it] would effect sales." Thus, the McDonald's PED would not have served its purpose. Even if one were dull enough to take McDonald's at face value instead of as "just an example", the appropriate PED would have been a cross elasticity: the ratio of the change in fast food prices to the change in demand for McDonald's, which couldn't be far from the fast food PED anyway.
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8/8/2013 9:53:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 9:51:21 PM, CarefulNow wrote:
At 8/8/2013 8:03:07 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:57:48 PM, CarefulNow wrote:
At 8/8/2013 7:39:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
Regardless, what the OP is looking for is most likely a carefully guarded trade secret. So, I sincerely doubt that the data is available publicly.

What the OP is looking for is first and foremost the relevant PED, which is not only publicly available, but linked to in my last post. That the OP mistakenly thought the relevant PEDs were those of specific McDonald's products is of secondary importance.

The only one mistaken about the OP is you I'm afraid. The OP specifically asked for PED of Mcdonald's products, not food in general as per your source.

My source provides PEDs for several food categories, yes, and I cited the relevant one, fast food PED. The OP identifies the purpose to be predicting the effect on (McDonald's, not yet confirmed to be "just an example") sales of a living wage-induced increase in price: "With all of the talk about the idea of a living wage [which is understood to be for all fast food workers by all who talk about it], I'm curious how the increase in price [which is predicted to be fast food industry-wide by all who predict it] would effect sales." Thus, the McDonald's PED would not have served its purpose. Even if one were dull enough to take McDonald's at face value instead of as "just an example", the appropriate PED would have been a cross elasticity: the ratio of the change in fast food prices to the change in demand for McDonald's, which couldn't be far from the fast food PED anyway.

It is not a matter of being "dull" but a matter of being precise.

And, if MCD does have the demonstrable differential as justified by its stock performance, then there is every reason to think that their ratios would be very different than that of their competitors...unless you were dull of course.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
CarefulNow
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8/9/2013 12:10:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/8/2013 9:53:16 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
And, if MCD does have the demonstrable differential as justified by its stock performance, then there is every reason to think that their ratios would be very different than that of their competitors...unless you were dull of course.

"Very different" enough that the effect of an industry-wide price increase on McDonald's sales is better approximated by McDonald's PED than the industry's? Given that any other meaning of "very different" would be irrelevant, I'm curious how you deduced such a difference from McDonald's stock performance.
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8/9/2013 12:28:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/9/2013 12:10:16 AM, CarefulNow wrote:
At 8/8/2013 9:53:16 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
And, if MCD does have the demonstrable differential as justified by its stock performance, then there is every reason to think that their ratios would be very different than that of their competitors...unless you were dull of course.

"Very different" enough that the effect of an industry-wide price increase on McDonald's sales is better approximated by McDonald's PED than the industry's? Given that any other meaning of "very different" would be irrelevant, I'm curious how you deduced such a difference from McDonald's stock performance.

Stock performance can be indicative of just about anything...however some sort of path to profitability tends to be the overriding factor in determining it. Profitability would dictate elasticity to no small degree - all else being the same, if one fast-food maker was able to achieve higher market share at similar pricing points and thus more profits, that would point to either a large quality differential, or "very different" elasticities. Given that I simply do not see a significant quality differential amongst the various fast food companies, and given that MCD's stock vastly outperforms the competition, I would conclude that there is something causing a pronounced and observable inelasticity in MCD's products. It could be reputation, branding, location...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?