Total Posts:60|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Is it the poor's fault that they are poor?

PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think not. I am poor. My family makes less than half of the poverty line, and there are eight of us. Both of my parents have two full time jobs, I work full time and study full time. Sines moving to Georgia, I've had numerous people call me out on the fact that I dress well, but we are struggling to pay the rent. The tell me that we are poor because we are not hard enough workers and we are not smart with our money. I am sorry I don't dress in rags, but all of my clothing is handed down.

I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.
Religion Forum Ambassador

HUFFLEPUFF FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/23/2014 10:44:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
I think not. I am poor. My family makes less than half of the poverty line, and there are eight of us. Both of my parents have two full time jobs, I work full time and study full time. Sines moving to Georgia, I've had numerous people call me out on the fact that I dress well, but we are struggling to pay the rent. The tell me that we are poor because we are not hard enough workers and we are not smart with our money. I am sorry I don't dress in rags, but all of my clothing is handed down.

I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.

When you look at the system I see two things......

1) Who does what
2) Who get's what

Unless your an "owner" more importantly the owner of something important, you are probably screwed, as you will have to fight with other non owners in a system where the wealth you create as a worker, well goes to the owner.

Oh its a big club............and your not in it.

The trouble with ownership is that it can't be for everyone. There is only so much land, only so many buildings, only so many factory. And if we are all owners who is actually going to do the work ?

But to work peasants.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 12:10:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
I think not. I am poor. My family makes less than half of the poverty line, and there are eight of us. Both of my parents have two full time jobs, I work full time and study full time. Sines moving to Georgia, I've had numerous people call me out on the fact that I dress well, but we are struggling to pay the rent. The tell me that we are poor because we are not hard enough workers and we are not smart with our money. I am sorry I don't dress in rags, but all of my clothing is handed down.

I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.

Generally speaking, I would say, yes, it is their fault. They make choices that keep them poor, whether it be a bunch of shortsighted purchases or major decisions, like having kids.
Nothing against your parents or anything, but they choose to have eight (or six) kids.
Had they not had six kids, do you think they would be poor?

Further, I am confused how they both work full time and you are half the poverty line.
If memory serves, the poverty line for a family of eight should be about $34,000, and full time minimum wage would be $15,000 + (x 2).
My work here is, finally, done.
Andrew6591
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 6:34:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:10:49 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
I think not. I am poor. My family makes less than half of the poverty line, and there are eight of us. Both of my parents have two full time jobs, I work full time and study full time. Sines moving to Georgia, I've had numerous people call me out on the fact that I dress well, but we are struggling to pay the rent. The tell me that we are poor because we are not hard enough workers and we are not smart with our money. I am sorry I don't dress in rags, but all of my clothing is handed down.

I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.

Generally speaking, I would say, yes, it is their fault. They make choices that keep them poor, whether it be a bunch of shortsighted purchases or major decisions, like having kids.
Nothing against your parents or anything, but they choose to have eight (or six) kids.
Had they not had six kids, do you think they would be poor?

Further, I am confused how they both work full time and you are half the poverty line.
If memory serves, the poverty line for a family of eight should be about $34,000, and full time minimum wage would be $15,000 + (x 2).

I would completely agree with Khaos_mage. It is generally their fault. You makeyour own decisions, good or bad, and the outcome generally reflects those decisions. So if you decide that you want 10 kids, then do so, but be aware (and don't complain afterwards) that you are likely to struggle if you cannot afford to make this decision.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 7:35:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:10:49 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
I think not. I am poor. My family makes less than half of the poverty line, and there are eight of us. Both of my parents have two full time jobs, I work full time and study full time. Sines moving to Georgia, I've had numerous people call me out on the fact that I dress well, but we are struggling to pay the rent. The tell me that we are poor because we are not hard enough workers and we are not smart with our money. I am sorry I don't dress in rags, but all of my clothing is handed down.

I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.

Generally speaking, I would say, yes, it is their fault. They make choices that keep them poor, whether it be a bunch of shortsighted purchases or major decisions, like having kids.
Nothing against your parents or anything, but they choose to have eight (or six) kids.
Had they not had six kids, do you think they would be poor?

Further, I am confused how they both work full time and you are half the poverty line.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Andrew6591
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:44:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

Who are the rich people?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:47:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

What is ITT?

Why can't they understand the poor?
They may be deluding themselves, but that doesn't mean they can't be right, either.

Why do you label me as not understanding the plight of them?
Did you know I used to eat out of the trash at school?
Did you know that I illegally worked when I was ten for our townhome complex to help pay the rent (wages were rent paid)?
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:49:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

Also, there is a world of difference between the general reasons people are poor, and the reasons people are not rich. They are not the same issue.
My work here is, finally, done.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:50:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:10:49 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
I think not. I am poor. My family makes less than half of the poverty line, and there are eight of us. Both of my parents have two full time jobs, I work full time and study full time. Sines moving to Georgia, I've had numerous people call me out on the fact that I dress well, but we are struggling to pay the rent. The tell me that we are poor because we are not hard enough workers and we are not smart with our money. I am sorry I don't dress in rags, but all of my clothing is handed down.

I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.

Generally speaking, I would say, yes, it is their fault. They make choices that keep them poor, whether it be a bunch of shortsighted purchases or major decisions, like having kids.

Damn you're right. Buying all this food and clothing and shelter. How could one be so shortsighted? Food, clothing, and shelter are a luxury for those who work hard! Like the Walton grandchildren! Look at them! Maybe they haven'y worked a single day in their life. Maybe their parents didn't work a single day in their life. But they deserve those billions of dollars. Why you ask? Because America.

Nothing against your parents or anything, but they choose to have eight (or six) kids.
Had they not had six kids, do you think they would be poor?

You're right! The poor shouldn't be allowed to have kids! Get the castration scissors!

Further, I am confused how they both work full time and you are half the poverty line.
If memory serves, the poverty line for a family of eight should be about $34,000, and full time minimum wage would be $15,000 + (x 2).

Your confusion is a perfect indicator of why you shouldn't be making assertions in this thread. The minimum wage for non tipping workers may be $15,000. But, there are indeed ways to circumvent minimum wage laws. Furthermore, the annual minimum wage for tip earning workers is only a paltry $4,430. And considering that a large proportion of customers are republicans (and republicans are sh*t tippers) a waiter/waitress could earn as little as 7-8 thousand annually.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:51:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:44:12 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

Who are the rich people?

Maybe not rich.

But if you're making more than 75k annually, then you are making enough to live a very luxurious life.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Andrew6591
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:56:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:51:51 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:44:12 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

Who are the rich people?

Maybe not rich.

But if you're making more than 75k annually, then you are making enough to live a very luxurious life.

I would agree, but it seemed like you were referring to someone in this thread.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:56:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:47:21 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

What is ITT?

ITT=In This Thread

Why can't they understand the poor?

Because they've (likely) never been poor.

They may be deluding themselves, but that doesn't mean they can't be right, either.

If you don't understand something, how can you form a proper opinion.


Why do you label me as not understanding the plight of them?

See above.

Did you know I used to eat out of the trash at school?

That's a strange habit. Especially considering that public schools give free lunches to the poor.

Did you know that I illegally worked when I was ten for our townhome complex to help pay the rent (wages were rent paid)?

Since your previous statement is likely not true, I am guessing this isn't true either.

Either way, less than 2% of the poor become rich. Which means that if you're story is true, you got lucky. You don't just work hard and magically become successful. You have to work hard and get very lucky. Just the right opportunity has to come to you.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:57:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:50:36 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 12:10:49 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
I think not. I am poor. My family makes less than half of the poverty line, and there are eight of us. Both of my parents have two full time jobs, I work full time and study full time. Sines moving to Georgia, I've had numerous people call me out on the fact that I dress well, but we are struggling to pay the rent. The tell me that we are poor because we are not hard enough workers and we are not smart with our money. I am sorry I don't dress in rags, but all of my clothing is handed down.

I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.

Generally speaking, I would say, yes, it is their fault. They make choices that keep them poor, whether it be a bunch of shortsighted purchases or major decisions, like having kids.

Damn you're right. Buying all this food and clothing and shelter. How could one be so shortsighted? Food, clothing, and shelter are a luxury for those who work hard! Like the Walton grandchildren! Look at them! Maybe they haven'y worked a single day in their life. Maybe their parents didn't work a single day in their life. But they deserve those billions of dollars. Why you ask? Because America.

So, to you, having kids is not a choice?
As I said before, do you think these two parent, had they not had children, would be considered poor? They sure as hell wouldn't be in poverty.

Nothing against your parents or anything, but they choose to have eight (or six) kids.
Had they not had six kids, do you think they would be poor?

You're right! The poor shouldn't be allowed to have kids! Get the castration scissors!
I did not say that, nor imply it.

Further, I am confused how they both work full time and you are half the poverty line.
If memory serves, the poverty line for a family of eight should be about $34,000, and full time minimum wage would be $15,000 + (x 2).

Your confusion is a perfect indicator of why you shouldn't be making assertions in this thread. The minimum wage for non tipping workers may be $15,000. But, there are indeed ways to circumvent minimum wage laws. Furthermore, the annual minimum wage for tip earning workers is only a paltry $4,430. And considering that a large proportion of customers are republicans (and republicans are sh*t tippers) a waiter/waitress could earn as little as 7-8 thousand annually.

Look at his statements.
They both work two full time jobs.
That is, what 70 hours a week x 2 parents = half the poverty line.
So, about $17K is what these two parents make, working two jobs each?
I find that hard to believe.

Plus, the minimum wage is the same for tipped and non-tipped employees.
However, in states with tip credits, the employer can pay less. However, at the end of the day, the employee still must be making minimum wage, or the employer needs to cover the difference.
My work here is, finally, done.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 10:57:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:56:04 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:51:51 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:44:12 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

Who are the rich people?

Maybe not rich.

But if you're making more than 75k annually, then you are making enough to live a very luxurious life.


I would agree, but it seemed like you were referring to someone in this thread.

No one in specific. It's just typical for rich/wealthy/successful to just assume it is the fault of the poor for being poor.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Andrew6591
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 11:00:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:57:26 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:56:04 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:51:51 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:44:12 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

Who are the rich people?

Maybe not rich.

But if you're making more than 75k annually, then you are making enough to live a very luxurious life.


I would agree, but it seemed like you were referring to someone in this thread.

No one in specific. It's just typical for rich/wealthy/successful to just assume it is the fault of the poor for being poor.

In terms of the decision they make of course it is their fault. The discussion started with this whole idea of having kids and therefore people are poor. Are you saying that people should have kids regardless of whether or not they can afford them? or use tax payers money to be unhealthy food?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 11:02:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:56:36 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:47:21 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.


Because they've (likely) never been poor.

They may be deluding themselves, but that doesn't mean they can't be right, either.

If you don't understand something, how can you form a proper opinion.
Why do you have to experience something to understand it?


Why do you label me as not understanding the plight of them?

See above.
Why do you consider me rich?
I have never made more than $40K/yr. Is that rich to you?

Did you know I used to eat out of the trash at school?

That's a strange habit. Especially considering that public schools give free lunches to the poor.
Who said it was during lunchtime?
Who said it was long term?
Who said we qualified?
Who said that program existed when I was in school?

Did you know that I illegally worked when I was ten for our townhome complex to help pay the rent (wages were rent paid)?

Since your previous statement is likely not true, I am guessing this isn't true either.
Believe what you want.
I am more interested in why you think I am rich.

Either way, less than 2% of the poor become rich. Which means that if you're story is true, you got lucky. You don't just work hard and magically become successful. You have to work hard and get very lucky. Just the right opportunity has to come to you.

Again, why am I rich?
And, I agree with your statement on how one becomes rich.
However, being poor is much, much simpler, isn't it?
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 11:06:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 10:51:51 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:44:12 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.

Who are the rich people?

Maybe not rich.

But if you're making more than 75k annually, then you are making enough to live a very luxurious life.

I would say, if it weren't for my crippling debt, I would be living very comfortable life at about $35K.
My work here is, finally, done.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 11:31:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.

I'm deeply conservative and I'm middle class. I spent most my life being poor. We were so poor that we couldn't afford toilet paper, and sometimes starved because we couldn't afford to refill the fridge or selves every week. It's a terrible assumption that conservatives don't understand the poor. Most conservatives, like any group, are poor or middle class. At 30-40%+ of the population, assuming all conservatives, or even a small percent of conservatives, are well off wealthy people is simply ignorance.

It is your fault every time you choose a video game over savings and a new phone over investments. Every time you take vacation time over extra hour and potential promotions.

Your whole argument was based on personal experience rather than general statistic, and even your issue was your parents reproductive negligence. That latter half of your case was pure ad hominem.
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

OFFICIAL DK/TUF 2016 Platform: http://www.debate.org...

My Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com...
#SaveThePresidency
#SaveTheSite

-- DK/TUF 2016 --
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 11:31:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:35:04 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 1/24/2014 12:10:49 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/23/2014 10:27:24 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
I think not. I am poor. My family makes less than half of the poverty line, and there are eight of us. Both of my parents have two full time jobs, I work full time and study full time. Sines moving to Georgia, I've had numerous people call me out on the fact that I dress well, but we are struggling to pay the rent. The tell me that we are poor because we are not hard enough workers and we are not smart with our money. I am sorry I don't dress in rags, but all of my clothing is handed down.

I don't think the average conservative has any clue what it means to be poor, and to tell us that it is our fault is absolutely stupid and arrogant.

Generally speaking, I would say, yes, it is their fault. They make choices that keep them poor, whether it be a bunch of shortsighted purchases or major decisions, like having kids.
Nothing against your parents or anything, but they choose to have eight (or six) kids.
Had they not had six kids, do you think they would be poor?

Further, I am confused how they both work full time and you are half the poverty line.
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

OFFICIAL DK/TUF 2016 Platform: http://www.debate.org...

My Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com...
#SaveThePresidency
#SaveTheSite

-- DK/TUF 2016 --
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 11:58:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 11:31:32 AM, donald.keller wrote:
How do you define middle class?
Rich?
Poor?

I'm curious.
My work here is, finally, done.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 12:10:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 11:58:57 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/24/2014 11:31:32 AM, donald.keller wrote:
How do you define middle class?
Rich?
Poor?

I'm curious.

In between. The Middle Class are not poor, but they aren't loaded with cash. Most middle class seem to think they're poor (an obviously case a victim-mentality), but they aren't. In my case, we have $4,000+ saved up, a house, food when needed, but we definitely aren't wealthy.

Of course my mother got there by working hard and making the right financial and work-based choices, not by blaming the wealthy for her poverty.
-- Don't forget to submit your unvoted debates to the Voter's Union --

OFFICIAL DK/TUF 2016 Platform: http://www.debate.org...

My Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com...
#SaveThePresidency
#SaveTheSite

-- DK/TUF 2016 --
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 12:44:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 11:02:47 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:56:36 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:47:21 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/24/2014 10:40:22 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
ITT: Rich people pretending like they understand the poor.


Because they've (likely) never been poor.

They may be deluding themselves, but that doesn't mean they can't be right, either.

If you don't understand something, how can you form a proper opinion.
Why do you have to experience something to understand it?

Because the exact extent of poverty is something you cannot truly understand until you have lived it. True understanding of any phenomena really does require experience.



Why do you label me as not understanding the plight of them?

See above.
Why do you consider me rich?
I have never made more than $40K/yr. Is that rich to you?

Perhaps I have been using rich wrong. You are living relatively comfortably.


Did you know I used to eat out of the trash at school?

That's a strange habit. Especially considering that public schools give free lunches to the poor.

Who said it was during lunchtime?

Why are you eating at school other than lunch? They also give free breakfast to the poor.

Who said it was long term?

No one. I don't see your point.

Who said we qualified?

If you didn't qualify then you probably weren't poor.

Who said that program existed when I was in school?

I'm not sure when the program started exactly, but I am fairly sure it was around when you were in school. If it wasn't, I'm sorry! You deserved that program.


Did you know that I illegally worked when I was ten for our townhome complex to help pay the rent (wages were rent paid)?

Since your previous statement is likely not true, I am guessing this isn't true either.
Believe what you want.
I am more interested in why you think I am rich.

Again, sorry. I should not say rich. I think you are, or should be, living comfortably.


Either way, less than 2% of the poor become rich. Which means that if you're story is true, you got lucky. You don't just work hard and magically become successful. You have to work hard and get very lucky. Just the right opportunity has to come to you.

Again, why am I rich?
And, I agree with your statement on how one becomes rich.

Thanks!

However, being poor is much, much simpler, isn't it?

Yes. One simply has to have poor parents. It's that easy. Is that really the fault of the children? I'd imagine the majority of poor today were born poor. I cannot be sure, as I am having a hard time finding a stastic to show what % of poor were born poor. I can, however, say that 13% of all children are born poor, and about 16% of the population is poor.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 1:00:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:44:19 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 11:02:47 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

If you don't understand something, how can you form a proper opinion.
Why do you have to experience something to understand it?


Because the exact extent of poverty is something you cannot truly understand until you have lived it. True understanding of any phenomena really does require experience.
The exact extent, yes.
However, to analyze the cause it is not necessary.
You have no problem stating how/why the rich are rich, and I assume you have never experienced being rich.



Who said it was during lunchtime?

Why are you eating at school other than lunch? They also give free breakfast to the poor.
Breakfast wasn't around then, not even served with pay (this was 25 years ago).


Who said we qualified?

If you didn't qualify then you probably weren't poor.
Alcoholic father and extreme lawyer costs for divorce (lasted 5 years) suggest otherwise.
This is why one cannot simply cite an income figure as being poor.

We didn't qualify because the government said "we should be able to provide school lunches". This was not the case. (sound like familiar reasoning?)
Again, sorry. I should not say rich. I think you are, or should be, living comfortably.
Yes, should be, ought to be.
If my wife didn't lose her job and start a new career, then business (choice).
If we didn't buy a home we could barely afford at the time (choice).
If we didn't waste money on college that she is not using, and I don't use professionally (choice).

If it wasn't for these choices, I'd have disposable income, I could save and build wealth, and be on my way to middle class/upper middle class.

So, my choices have prevented me from attaining wealth. Generally speaking, why is it any different than the poor making choices that prevent them from attaining wealth to move up (i.e. smoking, drinking, having children, not working, whatever the choice may be that caused their current situation).


Either way, less than 2% of the poor become rich. Which means that if you're story is true, you got lucky. You don't just work hard and magically become successful. You have to work hard and get very lucky. Just the right opportunity has to come to you.

Again, why am I rich?
And, I agree with your statement on how one becomes rich.

Thanks!

However, being poor is much, much simpler, isn't it?

Yes. One simply has to have poor parents. It's that easy. Is that really the fault of the children? I'd imagine the majority of poor today were born poor. I cannot be sure, as I am having a hard time finding a stastic to show what % of poor were born poor. I can, however, say that 13% of all children are born poor, and about 16% of the population is poor.

That is poor parenting and sad.
But the fact still remains, the children of poor parents exercising poor parenting still made poor decisions (it can be just one), that result in them being poor.

People have their priorities mixed up, and can stop being poor (generally) if they put their mind to it. [depending on the circumstances, it is easier to rectify cancelling a cell phone or getting a roommate than it is dealing with the fact you have a child]

Again, becoming rich does depend on choices, but often requires luck and hard work too. I have, nor will I ever, say the poor are poor simply because they don't work or do hard work.
My work here is, finally, done.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 1:33:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:00:16 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 1/24/2014 12:44:19 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 11:02:47 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

If you don't understand something, how can you form a proper opinion.
Why do you have to experience something to understand it?


Because the exact extent of poverty is something you cannot truly understand until you have lived it. True understanding of any phenomena really does require experience.
The exact extent, yes.
However, to analyze the cause it is not necessary.
You have no problem stating how/why the rich are rich, and I assume you have never experienced being rich.

Actually, I don't believe that I truly understand the plight of the poor to it's fullest extent because I was born very wealthy. My parents were both born very poor and thank their wealth to both hard work and luck. I consider myself to have knowledge of the plight of the poor, but in honesty, I don't think I truly understand it.




Who said it was during lunchtime?

Why are you eating at school other than lunch? They also give free breakfast to the poor.
Breakfast wasn't around then, not even served with pay (this was 25 years ago).

Ah, well I am sorry for that. I think the free lunch/free breakfast program is a good help to the poor.


Who said we qualified?

If you didn't qualify then you probably weren't poor.
Alcoholic father and extreme lawyer costs for divorce (lasted 5 years) suggest otherwise.
This is why one cannot simply cite an income figure as being poor.
We didn't qualify because the government said "we should be able to provide school lunches". This was not the case. (sound like familiar reasoning?)

This is an excellent point! I completely agree. There are more figures at work rather than just income. You situation was tough indeed.

Again, sorry. I should not say rich. I think you are, or should be, living comfortably.
Yes, should be, ought to be.
If my wife didn't lose her job and start a new career, then business (choice).
If we didn't buy a home we could barely afford at the time (choice).
If we didn't waste money on college that she is not using, and I don't use professionally (choice).

If it wasn't for these choices, I'd have disposable income, I could save and build wealth, and be on my way to middle class/upper middle class.

But did you make those choices knowing that they would prevent you from becoming successful?

So, my choices have prevented me from attaining wealth. Generally speaking, why is it any different than the poor making choices that prevent them from attaining wealth to move up (i.e. smoking, drinking, having children, not working, whatever the choice may be that caused their current situation).

This is true. Some people do make choice that will obviously lead to economic disparity. But many choices are made in hope of reaching economic prosperity. Sometimes people make choices they hope will bring them success, and work hard for that success, but still remain poor because of lack of education/bad luck/people taking advantage of them.



Either way, less than 2% of the poor become rich. Which means that if you're story is true, you got lucky. You don't just work hard and magically become successful. You have to work hard and get very lucky. Just the right opportunity has to come to you.

Again, why am I rich?
And, I agree with your statement on how one becomes rich.

Thanks!

However, being poor is much, much simpler, isn't it?

Yes. One simply has to have poor parents. It's that easy. Is that really the fault of the children? I'd imagine the majority of poor today were born poor. I cannot be sure, as I am having a hard time finding a stastic to show what % of poor were born poor. I can, however, say that 13% of all children are born poor, and about 16% of the population is poor.

That is poor parenting and sad.

I don't see what you mean.

But the fact still remains, the children of poor parents exercising poor parenting still made poor decisions (it can be just one), that result in them being poor.

I don't think being poor should be a reason not to have children. People have a natural biological urge to have and raise children. You shouldn't be incentivized not to do that just because children are expensive.

People have their priorities mixed up, and can stop being poor (generally) if they put their mind to it. [depending on the circumstances, it is easier to rectify cancelling a cell phone or getting a roommate than it is dealing with the fact you have a child].

True, but sometimes people are made poor by forces out of their control.



Again, becoming rich does depend on choices, but often requires luck and hard work too. I have, nor will I ever, say the poor are poor simply because they don't work or do hard work.

I agree completely.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Juris_Naturalis
Posts: 273
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 1:46:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

You're right! The poor shouldn't be allowed to have kids! Get the castration scissors!

This isn't actually a half bad idea. If your poor and cannot provide, why should you have kids, who run the very strong risk of bad behaviour like I dunno, joining gangs.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 1:54:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:46:52 PM, Juris_Naturalis wrote:

You're right! The poor shouldn't be allowed to have kids! Get the castration scissors!

This isn't actually a half bad idea. If your poor and cannot provide, why should you have kids, who run the very strong risk of bad behaviour like I dunno, joining gangs.

You're right! We should also stop letting the mentally handicapped have kids because their children are more likely to be mentally handicapped, and thus be a burden to society.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Juris_Naturalis
Posts: 273
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 2:02:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:54:23 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:46:52 PM, Juris_Naturalis wrote:

You're right! The poor shouldn't be allowed to have kids! Get the castration scissors!

This isn't actually a half bad idea. If your poor and cannot provide, why should you have kids, who run the very strong risk of bad behaviour like I dunno, joining gangs.

You're right! We should also stop letting the mentally handicapped have kids because their children are more likely to be mentally handicapped, and thus be a burden to society.

Only if they're incredibly dangerous or can't function outside a mental health facility. If they can function, and work, they're fine. If they're bipolar schizophrenics who keep trying to set the nurse on fire, No.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 2:06:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 2:02:11 PM, Juris_Naturalis wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:54:23 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:46:52 PM, Juris_Naturalis wrote:

You're right! The poor shouldn't be allowed to have kids! Get the castration scissors!

This isn't actually a half bad idea. If your poor and cannot provide, why should you have kids, who run the very strong risk of bad behaviour like I dunno, joining gangs.

You're right! We should also stop letting the mentally handicapped have kids because their children are more likely to be mentally handicapped, and thus be a burden to society.

Only if they're incredibly dangerous or can't function outside a mental health facility. If they can function, and work, they're fine. If they're bipolar schizophrenics who keep trying to set the nurse on fire, No.

Perhaps we should just require anyone with an IQ below 70 to never reproduce. Sterilize them maybe?
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Juris_Naturalis
Posts: 273
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/24/2014 2:31:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 2:06:19 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 2:02:11 PM, Juris_Naturalis wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:54:23 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:46:52 PM, Juris_Naturalis wrote:

You're right! The poor shouldn't be allowed to have kids! Get the castration scissors!

This isn't actually a half bad idea. If your poor and cannot provide, why should you have kids, who run the very strong risk of bad behaviour like I dunno, joining gangs.

You're right! We should also stop letting the mentally handicapped have kids because their children are more likely to be mentally handicapped, and thus be a burden to society.

Only if they're incredibly dangerous or can't function outside a mental health facility. If they can function, and work, they're fine. If they're bipolar schizophrenics who keep trying to set the nurse on fire, No.

Perhaps we should just require anyone with an IQ below 70 to never reproduce. Sterilize them maybe?

If they are non dangerous people who can hold a job, then they can reproduce. Period. If they have an IQ of 65 but can still work full time, sure, Have at it.