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Name a good thing about Capitalism. *I can't*

kbub
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10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.
charleslb
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10/21/2014 5:36:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

My response is that this is a wonderfully truth-telling post! Kudos!

You cover the negative nature of capitalism's fundamental dynamic, i.e. the competitive drive for production & profit, its harmful-to-the-environment and adverse-to-human-well-being effects quite nicely. I would merely contribute an additional emphasis on how this dynamic leads to an orientation in which everything, from the gifts of nature and other living creatures to fellow human beings, are objectified and commodified; i.e. reduced to and related to as mere economic quantities, economic its, rather than being appreciated and respected as human thous, fellow living beings with intrinsic value, and natural treasures to be treasured and conserved not plundered. Yes, the internal dynamics and the values orientation of capitalism are fundamentally and incorrigibly amoral, anti-human, and anti-ecological, misordering our individual and societal priorities to the point that millions of our fellow citizens are in some fashion the casualties of capitalism (i.e., personally suffer from its various ill-effects, debt, unemployment, homelessness, racism, incarceration, et al.), our nation shows unmistakable sociological signs of being in decline, and despite the denial of conservatives a global ecological catastrophe looms. Such is the dire reality of capitalism that it would behoove us all to never lose sight of.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
kbub
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10/21/2014 6:38:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/21/2014 5:36:51 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

My response is that this is a wonderfully truth-telling post! Kudos!

You cover the negative nature of capitalism's fundamental dynamic, i.e. the competitive drive for production & profit, its harmful-to-the-environment and adverse-to-human-well-being effects quite nicely. I would merely contribute an additional emphasis on how this dynamic leads to an orientation in which everything, from the gifts of nature and other living creatures to fellow human beings, are objectified and commodified; i.e. reduced to and related to as mere economic quantities, economic its, rather than being appreciated and respected as human thous, fellow living beings with intrinsic value, and natural treasures to be treasured and conserved not plundered. Yes, the internal dynamics and the values orientation of capitalism are fundamentally and incorrigibly amoral, anti-human, and anti-ecological, misordering our individual and societal priorities to the point that millions of our fellow citizens are in some fashion the casualties of capitalism (i.e., personally suffer from its various ill-effects, debt, unemployment, homelessness, racism, incarceration, et al.), our nation shows unmistakable sociological signs of being in decline, and despite the denial of conservatives a global ecological catastrophe looms. Such is the de reality of capitalism that it would behoove us all to never lose sight of.

Thanks! Your additions are great, and seem spot on!

Would you mind repostimg this in the forum under "politics" (I named the thread the same thing). It's exhausting trying to answe everyone's concerns (as I'm sure you can sympathize, seeing your own thread!) so any help I can get would be super appreciated there. I feel terrible because I'm not educating/responding as well as I like, and you are about twice as informed as i am, so your criticism of me I'm sure would be super useful! If you have time of course.

Either way, thanks for the great response!
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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10/22/2014 8:00:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I work, I get paid. I dont work, I dont get paid. I am paid according to the the amount of time invested in my skillset. I can use that money to buy whatever I want and sell it to whoever I want. Anything else is theft or coercion.
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charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/22/2014 7:10:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/21/2014 6:38:36 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/21/2014 5:36:51 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

My response is that this is a wonderfully truth-telling post! Kudos!

You cover the negative nature of capitalism's fundamental dynamic, i.e. the competitive drive for production & profit, its harmful-to-the-environment and adverse-to-human-well-being effects quite nicely. I would merely contribute an additional emphasis on how this dynamic leads to an orientation in which everything, from the gifts of nature and other living creatures to fellow human beings, are objectified and commodified; i.e. reduced to and related to as mere economic quantities, economic its, rather than being appreciated and respected as human thous, fellow living beings with intrinsic value, and natural treasures to be treasured and conserved not plundered. Yes, the internal dynamics and the values orientation of capitalism are fundamentally and incorrigibly amoral, anti-human, and anti-ecological, misordering our individual and societal priorities to the point that millions of our fellow citizens are in some fashion the casualties of capitalism (i.e., personally suffer from its various ill-effects, debt, unemployment, homelessness, racism, incarceration, et al.), our nation shows unmistakable sociological signs of being in decline, and despite the denial of conservatives a global ecological catastrophe looms. Such is the de reality of capitalism that it would behoove us all to never lose sight of.

Thanks! Your additions are great, and seem spot on!

Would you mind repostimg this in the forum under "politics" (I named the thread the same thing). It's exhausting trying to answe everyone's concerns (as I'm sure you can sympathize, seeing your own thread!) so any help I can get would be super appreciated there. I feel terrible because I'm not educating/responding as well as I like, and you are about twice as informed as i am, so your criticism of me I'm sure would be super useful! If you have time of course.

Either way, thanks for the great response!

No problem.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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10/22/2014 7:19:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Kbub, I understand your frustration with capitalism, and--frankly--I'm a little fed-up with it, too! But I think what really sets me off is the laissez-faire capitalism that some individuals out there support and which Americans--to their own detriment--defend!

The truth is capitalism is a necessary economic system that must exist, though definitely not in its purest form. As a proud defender of the "Greatest Happiness" Principle, I believe that the best economic systems out there are established on a capitalistic foundation sprinkled with strong socialistic principles. What we have in America, I think, isn't working to benefit the vast majority of people--but our version of capitalism is one of the purer forms that can be found on the planet.

Some people live like Kings and Queens while most live in a sort of economic limbo, always hoping for something financially better but not always getting it. There's just way too many low-wage workers in America and it seems like they have to fight just to get a slight wage increase, while the richest fat cats live in unbelievable wealth and it seems couldn't care less about the plight of those trying to get by.

But I'm willing to give up on the American dream of endless wealth and resources and grasp onto something more realistic--a muted dream of some hope, some wealth, and some happiness--but not a motherload of it!

I think the problem is the American Dream itself, believe it or not. We should all strive to have enough to make ourselves moderately wealthy--but not ludicrously wealthy. When everybody wants to be super-rich and everybody glorifies that kind of life-style, that just isn't healthy for a nation I've concluded.

I want something better--but not necessarily the cream of the crop. I still believe in the American dream, but a much-more muted form of it. Besides, I rather live financially secure and in a stable environment than super-rich and in place where jealousy, envy, hate, and crime are all over the place.


The "Greatest Happiness" Principle is at odds with pure capitalism, anyway. Which is why I support capitalism sprinkled with strong socialistic policies!
charleslb
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10/23/2014 3:23:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 8:00:31 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I work, I get paid. I dont work, I dont get paid. I am paid according to the the amount of time invested in my skillset. I can use that money to buy whatever I want and sell it to whoever I want. Anything else is theft or coercion.

Translation: I'm one of capitalism's patsies who thinks that capitalism is a rational and fair system, and who's blissfully ignorant of the extent to which workingpeople under capitalism are controlled by coercive economic circumstances and pressures, and by the power of capitalist "job creators" and elites. Yep, I prefer living in the feel-good, fool's-paradise illusion that I'm free, even though I'm forced to sell my labor and to constantly struggle to make ends meet. Yeah, look at me being a Stepford wage slave, maintaining a stupid grin while I'm repeatedly shafted by the capitalist system.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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10/23/2014 8:32:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/23/2014 3:23:59 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/22/2014 8:00:31 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I work, I get paid. I dont work, I dont get paid. I am paid according to the the amount of time invested in my skillset. I can use that money to buy whatever I want and sell it to whoever I want. Anything else is theft or coercion.

Translation: I'm one of capitalism's patsies who thinks that capitalism is a rational and fair system, and who's blissfully ignorant of the extent to which workingpeople under capitalism are controlled by coercive economic circumstances and pressures, and by the power of capitalist "job creators" and elites. Yep, I prefer living in the feel-good, fool's-paradise illusion that I'm free, even though I'm forced to sell my labor and to constantly struggle to make ends meet. Yeah, look at me being a Stepford wage slave, maintaining a stupid grin while I'm repeatedly shafted by the capitalist system.

Are you going to address my argument or are you going to straw-man me? Because as it stands I am forced to conclude that you have no legitimate reply and that you are resorting to strawmans out of a desperation to support your hitherto unsupported convictions.
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charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/23/2014 5:11:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/23/2014 8:32:48 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/23/2014 3:23:59 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/22/2014 8:00:31 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I work, I get paid. I dont work, I dont get paid. I am paid according to the the amount of time invested in my skillset. I can use that money to buy whatever I want and sell it to whoever I want. Anything else is theft or coercion.

Translation: I'm one of capitalism's patsies who thinks that capitalism is a rational and fair system, and who's blissfully ignorant of the extent to which workingpeople under capitalism are controlled by coercive economic circumstances and pressures, and by the power of capitalist "job creators" and elites. Yep, I prefer living in the feel-good, fool's-paradise illusion that I'm free, even though I'm forced to sell my labor and to constantly struggle to make ends meet. Yeah, look at me being a Stepford wage slave, maintaining a stupid grin while I'm repeatedly shafted by the capitalist system.

Are you going to address my argument or are you going to straw-man me? Because as it stands I am forced to conclude that you have no legitimate reply and that you are resorting to strawmans out of a desperation to support your hitherto unsupported convictions.

Translation: I'm merely going to say that your criticisms don't apply to me without defending the claim.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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10/23/2014 5:15:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/23/2014 5:11:27 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/23/2014 8:32:48 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/23/2014 3:23:59 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/22/2014 8:00:31 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I work, I get paid. I dont work, I dont get paid. I am paid according to the the amount of time invested in my skillset. I can use that money to buy whatever I want and sell it to whoever I want. Anything else is theft or coercion.

Translation: I'm one of capitalism's patsies who thinks that capitalism is a rational and fair system, and who's blissfully ignorant of the extent to which workingpeople under capitalism are controlled by coercive economic circumstances and pressures, and by the power of capitalist "job creators" and elites. Yep, I prefer living in the feel-good, fool's-paradise illusion that I'm free, even though I'm forced to sell my labor and to constantly struggle to make ends meet. Yeah, look at me being a Stepford wage slave, maintaining a stupid grin while I'm repeatedly shafted by the capitalist system.

Are you going to address my argument or are you going to straw-man me? Because as it stands I am forced to conclude that you have no legitimate reply and that you are resorting to strawmans out of a desperation to support your hitherto unsupported convictions.

Translation: I'm merely going to say that your criticisms don't apply to me without defending the claim.

You have yet to address my argument.
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charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/23/2014 6:19:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/23/2014 5:15:51 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/23/2014 5:11:27 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/23/2014 8:32:48 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/23/2014 3:23:59 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/22/2014 8:00:31 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I work, I get paid. I dont work, I dont get paid. I am paid according to the the amount of time invested in my skillset. I can use that money to buy whatever I want and sell it to whoever I want. Anything else is theft or coercion.

Translation: I'm one of capitalism's patsies who thinks that capitalism is a rational and fair system, and who's blissfully ignorant of the extent to which workingpeople under capitalism are controlled by coercive economic circumstances and pressures, and by the power of capitalist "job creators" and elites. Yep, I prefer living in the feel-good, fool's-paradise illusion that I'm free, even though I'm forced to sell my labor and to constantly struggle to make ends meet. Yeah, look at me being a Stepford wage slave, maintaining a stupid grin while I'm repeatedly shafted by the capitalist system.

Are you going to address my argument or are you going to straw-man me? Because as it stands I am forced to conclude that you have no legitimate reply and that you are resorting to strawmans out of a desperation to support your hitherto unsupported convictions.

Translation: I'm merely going to say that your criticisms don't apply to me without defending the claim.

You have yet to address my argument.

In fact I've already addressed your glib claim that capitalism offers us a rational & fair socioeconomic modus vivendi. Indeed, the idea that the capitalist modus vivendi between workingpeople and their capitalist masters is based on any kind of legitimate moral logic or concept of fairplay is so thoroughly empirically refuted in the life experience of any evenly moderately conscientized worker as to be laughably ludicrous. It should suffice to simply point this out, especially since you haven't really constructed an actual philosophical argument!

(If you're sincerely interested in exploring my argument against your naive view of capitalism, here you go, http://www.debate.org... )
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Libertopia
Posts: 28
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10/24/2014 1:06:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/23/2014 6:19:50 PM, charleslb wrote:
(If you're sincerely interested in exploring my argument against your naive view of capitalism, here you go, http://www.debate.org... )

Have you thought to consider that you probably just have a terrible boss?
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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10/24/2014 2:16:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I'm more interested in knowing, how we can change the way (capitalism) we are living?
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/24/2014 6:21:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 1:06:08 PM, Libertopia wrote:
At 10/23/2014 6:19:50 PM, charleslb wrote:
(If you're sincerely interested in exploring my argument against your naive view of capitalism, here you go, http://www.debate.org... )

Have you thought to consider that you probably just have a terrible boss?

Have you ever thought that a system in which one might find him/herself subject to the workplace domination of a terrible boss is in fact a terrible system? Well, that revolutionary thought has actually occurred to a great many workingpeople, we're called socialists.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Libertopia
Posts: 28
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10/24/2014 8:01:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 6:21:10 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/24/2014 1:06:08 PM, Libertopia wrote:
At 10/23/2014 6:19:50 PM, charleslb wrote:
(If you're sincerely interested in exploring my argument against your naive view of capitalism, here you go, http://www.debate.org... )

Have you thought to consider that you probably just have a terrible boss?

Have you ever thought that a system in which one might find him/herself subject to the workplace domination of a terrible boss is in fact a terrible system? Well, that revolutionary thought has actually occurred to a great many workingpeople, we're called socialists.

Yes. I have considered it, and rejected it. Primarily on the grounds that, in the absence of said system, we just wouldn't have a society. It's a needlessly cynical view that you have, although I realize that's no argument.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,250
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10/25/2014 5:33:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 7:19:59 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
Kbub, I understand your frustration with capitalism, and--frankly--I'm a little fed-up with it, too! But I think what really sets me off is the laissez-faire capitalism that some individuals out there support and which Americans--to their own detriment--defend!

USA has a Crony Capitalist system, not Laissez-faire.

You can't defend something that does not exist.
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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10/26/2014 1:08:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

Not true, capitalism produced for the sake of popular demand - not productivity. You made something because someone want it and willing to pay you for it, never, ever you will make something just for the sake of making it.

In fact, the term produce for the sake of productivity is more true for socialism, especially in Soviet-style communism where you only produced what you are order to produce by the people who not going to use or sell that product - in other word, you produce only to get your job done, which is precisely what produce-for-productivity literally mean.

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

Only if they are dominating and not seek to continue to dominate the market. Non-innovative products are very heavily value-based, increased price or reduced quality are equally affect their market position. They can only made crappy goods if no one else is competing with them, and even so that's create an opening for a competitor to penetrate in your position.

Why do we by Nokia, Sony, or Philip products? Instead of buying directly from China from which their productions are based? It's because China has made a reputation for themselves as a crappy producer, and that's precisely what will happen to any manufacturer in capitalist economy. Low quality production is only part of a stages when companies are capitalistically growing, on one want to buy from Japan 50 years ago because they are just US-copy and probably have poorer quality, no one want to buy from Korea 25 years ago because they are just a Japanese-copy, see how well they are doing now.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

It caused people to have an option of prostitution instead of just starvation, people in Soviet doesn't have that option - they are just starved.

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

1. Better respond to individual need and want for product and service.

2. More efficient use of resources, you always have a quantifiable value to benchmark with for every economic activity. You don't gave resources to people just because they need a resources, you gave them when they promise to grow something out of that resources.

3. More individual freedom, economic freedom is part of individual freedom after all.People have more option to be what they want to be than simply what they're told to be.

4. So much more stable economy, you think American capitalism is vulnerable to recession? Look how good the European socialism did safeguard against it. The crisis took toll from bad to worst almost literally to the degree that socialism is implemented.

Also, I think your understanding is quite incorrect in regard to how capitalism is more productive than, say soviet socialism. Capitalism produce more in general and in longer run because you only produce what people want or need, soviet socialism produced more short burst of productivity because they are produced according to the rational demand of a small group of persons. Without the deadly economic recession, the USSR is almost on par with the US at one time, economically but then again, deadly recession is a trade mark of socialism so, arguably, they can't really avoid it.
Poisonchocolate
Posts: 1
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10/28/2014 8:34:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
When it's done well, Capitalism is amazing. When the proper legislation is used to regulate products, it works great. Laws should be in place to prevent exploitation of people. But laissez-fare capitalism is much better than a communist or socialist economies, as they completely ruin a society. People must at least have some productivity, even if much of it is for unhealthy products. It has been proven time and time again that communist economies simply do not work.
jvenia
Posts: 8
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11/6/2014 7:58:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Capitalism is the best systems there is. Capitalism provides competition which moves the economy forward. Businesses competing with each other creates advancements that lower prices and increase productivity. Look at Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, and Switzerland, all of these countries(and one world city) are ranked in the top 4 for counties with the best economy and they all are strongly ran by capitalism. Countries that are strongly ran by capitalism have been proven to have low crime rates and low unemployment.
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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11/6/2014 9:55:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Name a good thing about Capitalism. " Capitalism isn't for everyone. But with that said freedom is usually accompanied with capitalism so you have a choice to leave a capitalist country and go to a socialist or communist country where you can have cradle to grave entitlements and live a so so life or worse.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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11/16/2014 2:15:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Productivity reduces scarcity. Scarcity is what kills us. To that end the capitalistic process is the best process we have of reducing humanity's #1 killer.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

None of this paragraph is causal to capitalism. Prostitution predates capitalism, as does slavery, homelessness, unemployment, and lack of education.

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
debate_power
Posts: 726
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11/19/2014 10:10:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I'm sure there are a few good things but I can't put my finger on them, unsurprisingly
You can call me Mark if you like.
debate_power
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11/19/2014 10:11:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/21/2014 6:38:36 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/21/2014 5:36:51 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

My response is that this is a wonderfully truth-telling post! Kudos!

You cover the negative nature of capitalism's fundamental dynamic, i.e. the competitive drive for production & profit, its harmful-to-the-environment and adverse-to-human-well-being effects quite nicely. I would merely contribute an additional emphasis on how this dynamic leads to an orientation in which everything, from the gifts of nature and other living creatures to fellow human beings, are objectified and commodified; i.e. reduced to and related to as mere economic quantities, economic its, rather than being appreciated and respected as human thous, fellow living beings with intrinsic value, and natural treasures to be treasured and conserved not plundered. Yes, the internal dynamics and the values orientation of capitalism are fundamentally and incorrigibly amoral, anti-human, and anti-ecological, misordering our individual and societal priorities to the point that millions of our fellow citizens are in some fashion the casualties of capitalism (i.e., personally suffer from its various ill-effects, debt, unemployment, homelessness, racism, incarceration, et al.), our nation shows unmistakable sociological signs of being in decline, and despite the denial of conservatives a global ecological catastrophe looms. Such is the de reality of capitalism that it would behoove us all to never lose sight of.

Thanks! Your additions are great, and seem spot on!

Would you mind repostimg this in the forum under "politics" (I named the thread the same thing). It's exhausting trying to answe everyone's concerns (as I'm sure you can sympathize, seeing your own thread!) so any help I can get would be super appreciated there. I feel terrible because I'm not educating/responding as well as I like, and you are about twice as informed as i am, so your criticism of me I'm sure would be super useful! If you have time of course.

Either way, thanks for the great response!

Of course "skimming off of the top" at the expense of others is wasteful and unsustainable. That's capitalism for you.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Libertatis
Posts: 9
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11/19/2014 12:07:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/19/2014 10:11:19 AM, debate_power wrote:
At 10/21/2014 6:38:36 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/21/2014 5:36:51 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

My response is that this is a wonderfully truth-telling post! Kudos!

You cover the negative nature of capitalism's fundamental dynamic, i.e. the competitive drive for production & profit, its harmful-to-the-environment and adverse-to-human-well-being effects quite nicely. I would merely contribute an additional emphasis on how this dynamic leads to an orientation in which everything, from the gifts of nature and other living creatures to fellow human beings, are objectified and commodified; i.e. reduced to and related to as mere economic quantities, economic its, rather than being appreciated and respected as human thous, fellow living beings with intrinsic value, and natural treasures to be treasured and conserved not plundered. Yes, the internal dynamics and the values orientation of capitalism are fundamentally and incorrigibly amoral, anti-human, and anti-ecological, misordering our individual and societal priorities to the point that millions of our fellow citizens are in some fashion the casualties of capitalism (i.e., personally suffer from its various ill-effects, debt, unemployment, homelessness, racism, incarceration, et al.), our nation shows unmistakable sociological signs of being in decline, and despite the denial of conservatives a global ecological catastrophe looms. Such is the de reality of capitalism that it would behoove us all to never lose sight of.

Thanks! Your additions are great, and seem spot on!

Would you mind repostimg this in the forum under "politics" (I named the thread the same thing). It's exhausting trying to answe everyone's concerns (as I'm sure you can sympathize, seeing your own thread!) so any help I can get would be super appreciated there. I feel terrible because I'm not educating/responding as well as I like, and you are about twice as informed as i am, so your criticism of me I'm sure would be super useful! If you have time of course.

Either way, thanks for the great response!

Of course "skimming off of the top" at the expense of others is wasteful and unsustainable. That's capitalism for you.

Capitalism is the best system there is, would you rather have something like collectivism?
debate_power
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11/22/2014 4:29:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 8:00:31 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

I work, I get paid. I dont work, I dont get paid. I am paid according to the the amount of time invested in my skillset. I can use that money to buy whatever I want and sell it to whoever I want. Anything else is theft or coercion.

There are two things that companies provide- goods, services, or both. Both of these things have a distinct market value. The market value is what the capitalist strives to glean for the good or service without expenditures that would not facilitate gain. In order to do so, the capitalist cannot purchase the good or service for its value in the market- he must purchase a commodity that costs less and can be used to provide the good or service. This commodity is labor. In capitalism, the worker is not actually paid for what he creates- be it good or service- but is bought at a cost lower than that of the good or the service- the cost of that worker's labor. The capitalist's priority is always, in the end, to maximize profits. The priorities of a person, in the end, show their character. Capitalism's priority is to benefit a few as opposed to many, at the expense of the many, in product and service, "taken" from the many.
You can call me Mark if you like.
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11/22/2014 4:32:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 8:34:41 PM, Poisonchocolate wrote:
When it's done well, Capitalism is amazing. When the proper legislation is used to regulate products, it works great. Laws should be in place to prevent exploitation of people. But laissez-fare capitalism is much better than a communist or socialist economies, as they completely ruin a society. People must at least have some productivity, even if much of it is for unhealthy products. It has been proven time and time again that communist economies simply do not work.

In true communism, you either work or you die. It's like nature.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Fingolfin
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11/23/2014 12:14:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Before I answer this question, I have to ask one of my own: Which Capitalism? Smith's? Ricardo/Marx's? Mill's? Jevons/Fisher/Marshall's? Commons/Veblen's? Keynes'? Hayek's? Director's? Stigler's? Becker's?

In essence, I'm asking you to clarify which school of Economic thought's conception of capitalism you are addressing. Chicago will have one view. Ropke and the Ordoliberals, another. Harvard/MIT will again have a different view. Marx/Neo-Marxians will still have another view.

If, given your use of the words "exploitation of labor," you are in favor of the Marxian view of Capitalism, understand that it is inherently useless in today's world. There can be no exploitation of labor without the Labor Theory of Value. And Substantive Value theories are gone. Not a single Economist today would dare try to validate LTV, except for Neo-Marxists.

Second, the idea that a Capitalism system "pressures" companies into making goods is flawed as well. It assumes that there is absolutely no desire on the part of humans to consume such goods, and ignores the addictive effects that generate further demand for it. But Demand and consumption are themselves bywords, and are themselves obsolete.

Third, inherent in your post is the assumption that all goods derived from a Capitalistic system are detrimental to society. I would suspect you would include Computers in that assertion? Also, it ignores the fact that alcohol, drugs, and things that you would probably associate with the evils of capitalism are present in centrally planned economies as well. Lest we forget that it was Mao and the Great Leap Forward that started China on the path of industrialization, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who considered Mao to be a free-market individual. Prostitution too is present in centrally planned economies. And Slavery pre-existed the ideas of Capitalism, it even pre-existed Aristotle's oikonomicos.

Lastly, your diatribe against "productivity" would suggest you don't like having low-cost goods available to you? Or being able to own a car (something you owe to the assembly line, an invention designed to increase productivity)? Or the internet? Or Television? Printing presses? Hydro-electric power? Also, you have not defined "productivity."
debate_power
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11/23/2014 4:22:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/19/2014 12:07:16 PM, Libertatis wrote:
At 11/19/2014 10:11:19 AM, debate_power wrote:
At 10/21/2014 6:38:36 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/21/2014 5:36:51 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

My response is that this is a wonderfully truth-telling post! Kudos!

You cover the negative nature of capitalism's fundamental dynamic, i.e. the competitive drive for production & profit, its harmful-to-the-environment and adverse-to-human-well-being effects quite nicely. I would merely contribute an additional emphasis on how this dynamic leads to an orientation in which everything, from the gifts of nature and other living creatures to fellow human beings, are objectified and commodified; i.e. reduced to and related to as mere economic quantities, economic its, rather than being appreciated and respected as human thous, fellow living beings with intrinsic value, and natural treasures to be treasured and conserved not plundered. Yes, the internal dynamics and the values orientation of capitalism are fundamentally and incorrigibly amoral, anti-human, and anti-ecological, misordering our individual and societal priorities to the point that millions of our fellow citizens are in some fashion the casualties of capitalism (i.e., personally suffer from its various ill-effects, debt, unemployment, homelessness, racism, incarceration, et al.), our nation shows unmistakable sociological signs of being in decline, and despite the denial of conservatives a global ecological catastrophe looms. Such is the de reality of capitalism that it would behoove us all to never lose sight of.

Thanks! Your additions are great, and seem spot on!

Would you mind repostimg this in the forum under "politics" (I named the thread the same thing). It's exhausting trying to answe everyone's concerns (as I'm sure you can sympathize, seeing your own thread!) so any help I can get would be super appreciated there. I feel terrible because I'm not educating/responding as well as I like, and you are about twice as informed as i am, so your criticism of me I'm sure would be super useful! If you have time of course.

Either way, thanks for the great response!

Of course "skimming off of the top" at the expense of others is wasteful and unsustainable. That's capitalism for you.


Capitalism is the best system there is, would you rather have something like collectivism?

I would rather have Marx's interpretation of communism.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Libertatis
Posts: 9
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11/23/2014 6:34:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 4:22:59 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/19/2014 12:07:16 PM, Libertatis wrote:
At 11/19/2014 10:11:19 AM, debate_power wrote:
At 10/21/2014 6:38:36 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/21/2014 5:36:51 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:57:35 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

My response is that this is a wonderfully truth-telling post! Kudos!

You cover the negative nature of capitalism's fundamental dynamic, i.e. the competitive drive for production & profit, its harmful-to-the-environment and adverse-to-human-well-being effects quite nicely. I would merely contribute an additional emphasis on how this dynamic leads to an orientation in which everything, from the gifts of nature and other living creatures to fellow human beings, are objectified and commodified; i.e. reduced to and related to as mere economic quantities, economic its, rather than being appreciated and respected as human thous, fellow living beings with intrinsic value, and natural treasures to be treasured and conserved not plundered. Yes, the internal dynamics and the values orientation of capitalism are fundamentally and incorrigibly amoral, anti-human, and anti-ecological, misordering our individual and societal priorities to the point that millions of our fellow citizens are in some fashion the casualties of capitalism (i.e., personally suffer from its various ill-effects, debt, unemployment, homelessness, racism, incarceration, et al.), our nation shows unmistakable sociological signs of being in decline, and despite the denial of conservatives a global ecological catastrophe looms. Such is the de reality of capitalism that it would behoove us all to never lose sight of.

Thanks! Your additions are great, and seem spot on!

Would you mind repostimg this in the forum under "politics" (I named the thread the same thing). It's exhausting trying to answe everyone's concerns (as I'm sure you can sympathize, seeing your own thread!) so any help I can get would be super appreciated there. I feel terrible because I'm not educating/responding as well as I like, and you are about twice as informed as i am, so your criticism of me I'm sure would be super useful! If you have time of course.

Either way, thanks for the great response!

Of course "skimming off of the top" at the expense of others is wasteful and unsustainable. That's capitalism for you.


Capitalism is the best system there is, would you rather have something like collectivism?

I would rather have Marx's interpretation of communism.

Explaine, why?
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,250
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11/24/2014 8:51:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This thread reminds me of a bunch of petulant kids in school who were angry because the teacher gave a gold star to an exeptional student.

All the stars were confiscated and the bar was lowered to make everyone happy.

You guys confuse 'universal happiness' principle with the 'greatest happiness' principle.