Total Posts:35|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

What do you think the minimum wage should be?

imabench
Posts: 21,229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Beginner
Posts: 4,292
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/2/2015 1:03:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

In my state, it IS $9.
I would set it at $15/hr.
I like money, and living costs are expensive as hell. :'(
Senpai has noticed you.
BobTheCanOpener
Posts: 2
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2015 4:03:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.

Would you be willing to debate this?
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
BobTheCanOpener
Posts: 2
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2015 4:08:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 4:03:49 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.

Would you be willing to debate this?

Sure.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2015 4:09:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 4:08:42 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:
At 2/9/2015 4:03:49 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.

Would you be willing to debate this?

Sure.

Okay, great. I'll challenge you a bit later.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
debate_power
Posts: 726
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2015 4:24:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

$15. Heard of Nick Hanauer? As long as we have wage labor it's still more productive the raise the minimum wage.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/13/2015 3:27:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

It's hard to say for a federal min wage because cost of living varies from state to state. If you really want to help min wage workers ban the tip credit system and classify tips as nontaxable gifts.
ZexLiberty
Posts: 3
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/16/2015 10:16:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Eliminate laws regarding the minimum wage. There should be no legally enforced minimum wage. The government should not regulate how much an employer can pay a voluntary employee. Organized Labor and individuals can bargain for higher wages and better working conditions if they wish to do so.
--Zex
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/16/2015 11:00:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 10:16:09 AM, ZexLiberty wrote:
Eliminate laws regarding the minimum wage. There should be no legally enforced minimum wage. The government should not regulate how much an employer can pay a voluntary employee. Organized Labor and individuals can bargain for higher wages and better working conditions if they wish to do so.

I'll say the same thing to you I said to BobtheCanOpener: Would you like to debate this? I think your position is completely silly and counter-factual, and I would love to debate you on the merits of it.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
LittleGnomeChomsky
Posts: 3
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/16/2015 9:16:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.

I can't say that a business wouldn't behave in that way, however it would almost certainly be against its own interests to. Your argument implies that businesses are hiring workers that they don't need. If I own my very own gourmet burger-shack I wouldn't expect a minimum wage increase to decrease the amount of burgers I sell. If I were to lay off any employees however, I would either have to either sell fewer/lower quality burgers or find a way to improve efficiency by selling the same amount of burgers with fewer staff. If the second option is possible then any sensible business would persue it regardless of the minimum wage. The first option would only be sensible if the wages make up a large portion of the cost to sell a burger (I believe this would be atypical for most employers, sources forthcoming).

Further, businesses have the additional options of accepting lower profits, passing the cost on to customers or restructuring wages. I'll provide some sources for the above and go into more detail hopefully later this evening.
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/20/2015 8:20:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 9:16:21 PM, LittleGnomeChomsky wrote:
At 2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.

I can't say that a business wouldn't behave in that way, however it would almost certainly be against its own interests to. Your argument implies that businesses are hiring workers that they don't need. If I own my very own gourmet burger-shack I wouldn't expect a minimum wage increase to decrease the amount of burgers I sell. If I were to lay off any employees however, I would either have to either sell fewer/lower quality burgers or find a way to improve efficiency by selling the same amount of burgers with fewer staff. If the second option is possible then any sensible business would persue it regardless of the minimum wage. The first option would only be sensible if the wages make up a large portion of the cost to sell a burger (I believe this would be atypical for most employers, sources forthcoming).

Further, businesses have the additional options of accepting lower profits, passing the cost on to customers or restructuring wages. I'll provide some sources for the above and go into more detail hopefully later this evening.

I never looked at it this way before... interesting.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2015 12:24:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Although I would favor abolishment, a more practical solution is to have a two tier minimum wage.

Minimum wages (high ones) lead to reduced educational attainment as well as unemployment for teenagers and low skilled workers. Many argue it should be increased as the cost of living increases. But if you increase the minimum wage above the market equilibrium, you create job loss which exacerbates the issue for poor low skilled workers. In Japan, for example, many fast food chains are replacing cashiers with iPad's since the cost of the high wages are high. Even for studies which support the minimum wage, they find when a wage surpasses $12/per hour it reduces employment. Thus, Beginner's proposal of a $15 minimum wage would exacerbate the ills of many.

In New York, the effects of the minimum wage are large. Although consensus estimates suggest a 10% increase in the minimum wage leads to -1-3% in employment (-0.1 to -0.3 elasticity) some studies in New York suggest otherwise. They find that the rate of decrease for a 10% increase could be as high as 20%. This likely occurs because the regulatory and tax costs are already very high for business. So in areas which are not favorable to economic growth--California, New York, most of the Northeast--they will experience the brunt of the harm if they raise the minimum wage.

So my system works to help many people.

(1) A sub-minimum wage for teenagers. The minimum wage could be $5/hour. This would reduce--though not eliminate--the harms of the minimum wage. I would even support full abolition of a minimum wage for people under 20. As contracts are agreed upon by both parties, the child will not work for free as many liberals suggest.

(2) A flat $7 minimum wage for those above twenty. Anything higher could harm those you are trying to help--if anything, this wage may have harms, too. But you need to have a low minimum so that low skilled workers can work at a low wage and GAIN skills in order to obtain raises. The fact that 2/3 of those on minimum wage are paid more in the following year means that making it easy for unskilled workers is necessary. If it is too high you bar *everyone* who is worth under the minimum wage from obtaining skills, and thus harm their chances of getting paid higher later. See, wages are like a ladder. With a low minimum, people get onto the first step of the ladder. Over time, if they continue to work hard, they will go up a few rings. If you have a high minimum, they cannot get onto the lower part of the ladder. So they are stuck on the bottom forever. A low minimum allows them to climb up. Thus, a low wage can actually help the poor.

And many may say "employers wont pay you on worth, they want money". This is 100% correct--the second part, at least. The first part is not. If they could pay you the least possible, than EVERYONE would earn minimum wage because it is the minimum. The fact *most* people earn above the minimum suggests that productivity gauges how much you get paid. Plus, labor unions would still exist. So in industries with a large group of workers at risk of exploitation, the unions will prevent unfair wages even in a low-minimum wage environment.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2015 12:24:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 4:03:49 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.

Would you be willing to debate this?

Yes
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2015 12:26:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 2:22:11 AM, darkkermit wrote:
It would depend on what the elasticity of labor supply is, which is anybodys guess.

^this. It is possible a minimum wage would not harm workers if the wage equilibrium is high. Though the fact studies consistently find small raises in the minimum wage (e.g. $5 - $7) suggests, at least for low skilled workers, that it is fairly low.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2015 12:28:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/22/2015 12:24:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/9/2015 4:03:49 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.

Would you be willing to debate this?

Yes

Lmfao.

That was before the whole "Holy crap, I need to binge read this stuff!" epiphany, lol.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2015 12:30:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/22/2015 12:28:35 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 2/22/2015 12:24:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/9/2015 4:03:49 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 2/9/2015 3:35:05 PM, BobTheCanOpener wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

The primary drawback of a minimum wage would be out-pricing of unskilled labour. For example, if the minimum wage happens to climb to $10, a company may decide to fire some employees instead of giving them a raise. Why would they be fired? Because unless the worker can increase their productivity to match the minimum wage, the company would lose money. Thus, it is more financially prudent to lay off the worker. So while a minimum wage sounds beneficial to employees, it ironically may end up generating lay offs for many.

Would you be willing to debate this?

Yes

Lmfao.

That was before the whole "Holy crap, I need to binge read this stuff!" epiphany, lol.

lolol
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,859
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2015 12:45:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

$10 dollars seems fine, especially considering how much people are struggling. The only issue I feel is that the prices of everything is going to go up as wages do. So I fear it wouldn't make a difference.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2015 12:51:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/22/2015 12:45:19 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

$10 dollars seems fine, especially considering how much people are struggling. The only issue I feel is that the prices of everything is going to go up as wages do. So I fear it wouldn't make a difference.

I don't think there's any warrant for that concern, which seems to stipulate that nominal wage increases won't stipulate to increases in real wages. If we increase the minimum wage 10%, let's say, do you truly think that the price level will rise 10%? Mind you, we're talking about a small subset of the labor force, and even when we factor in people who are indirectly affected (people earning slightly above the MW, for instance, who may also receive a raise), the numbers just aren't there. You may se small, targeted price increases in industries, like restaurants, which employ a lot of minimum wage workers, but in the aggregate, there won't be any movements in prices.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2015 1:39:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/22/2015 12:51:49 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 2/22/2015 12:45:19 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

$10 dollars seems fine, especially considering how much people are struggling. The only issue I feel is that the prices of everything is going to go up as wages do. So I fear it wouldn't make a difference.

I don't think there's any warrant for that concern, which seems to stipulate that nominal wage increases won't translate to increases in real wages. If we increase the minimum wage 10%, let's say, do you truly think that inflation will rise 10%? Mind you, we're talking about a small subset of the labor force, and even when we factor in people who are indirectly affected (people earning slightly above the MW, for instance, who may also receive a raise), the numbers just aren't there. You may see small, targeted price increases in industries, like restaurants, which employ a lot of minimum wage workers, but in the aggregate, there won't be any movements in prices.

*fixed
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/23/2015 4:59:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/22/2015 12:26:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/13/2015 2:22:11 AM, darkkermit wrote:
It would depend on what the elasticity of labor supply is, which is anybodys guess.

^this. It is possible a minimum wage would not harm workers if the wage equilibrium is high. Though the fact studies consistently find small raises in the minimum wage (e.g. $5 - $7) suggests, at least for low skilled workers, that it is fairly low.

Yes problem is that there's not a lot of information on what further raises to the minimum wages would do. People intuitive realize that a certain point increasing the minimum wage would increase unemployment.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/23/2015 8:31:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:59:16 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/22/2015 12:26:27 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/13/2015 2:22:11 AM, darkkermit wrote:
It would depend on what the elasticity of labor supply is, which is anybodys guess.

^this. It is possible a minimum wage would not harm workers if the wage equilibrium is high. Though the fact studies consistently find small raises in the minimum wage (e.g. $5 - $7) suggests, at least for low skilled workers, that it is fairly low.

Yes problem is that there's not a lot of information on what further raises to the minimum wages would do. People intuitive realize that a certain point increasing the minimum wage would increase unemployment.

I know that Reich 2012 days you can increase it to $12 before job losses occur. But others (Neumark et al. 2013) put the wage floor much lower.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2015 12:57:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/22/2015 12:24:24 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Although I would favor abolishment, a more practical solution is to have a two tier minimum wage.

Minimum wages (high ones) lead to reduced educational attainment as well as unemployment for teenagers and low skilled workers. Many argue it should be increased as the cost of living increases. But if you increase the minimum wage above the market equilibrium, you create job loss which exacerbates the issue for poor low skilled workers. In Japan, for example, many fast food chains are replacing cashiers with iPad's since the cost of the high wages are high. Even for studies which support the minimum wage, they find when a wage surpasses $12/per hour it reduces employment. Thus, Beginner's proposal of a $15 minimum wage would exacerbate the ills of many.

In New York, the effects of the minimum wage are large. Although consensus estimates suggest a 10% increase in the minimum wage leads to -1-3% in employment (-0.1 to -0.3 elasticity) some studies in New York suggest otherwise. They find that the rate of decrease for a 10% increase could be as high as 20%. This likely occurs because the regulatory and tax costs are already very high for business. So in areas which are not favorable to economic growth--California, New York, most of the Northeast--they will experience the brunt of the harm if they raise the minimum wage.

So my system works to help many people.

(1) A sub-minimum wage for teenagers. The minimum wage could be $5/hour. This would reduce--though not eliminate--the harms of the minimum wage. I would even support full abolition of a minimum wage for people under 20. As contracts are agreed upon by both parties, the child will not work for free as many liberals suggest.

(2) A flat $7 minimum wage for those above twenty. Anything higher could harm those you are trying to help--if anything, this wage may have harms, too. But you need to have a low minimum so that low skilled workers can work at a low wage and GAIN skills in order to obtain raises. The fact that 2/3 of those on minimum wage are paid more in the following year means that making it easy for unskilled workers is necessary. If it is too high you bar *everyone* who is worth under the minimum wage from obtaining skills, and thus harm their chances of getting paid higher later. See, wages are like a ladder. With a low minimum, people get onto the first step of the ladder. Over time, if they continue to work hard, they will go up a few rings. If you have a high minimum, they cannot get onto the lower part of the ladder. So they are stuck on the bottom forever. A low minimum allows them to climb up. Thus, a low wage can actually help the poor.

And many may say "employers wont pay you on worth, they want money". This is 100% correct--the second part, at least. The first part is not. If they could pay you the least possible, than EVERYONE would earn minimum wage because it is the minimum. The fact *most* people earn above the minimum suggests that productivity gauges how much you get paid. Plus, labor unions would still exist. So in industries with a large group of workers at risk of exploitation, the unions will prevent unfair wages even in a low-minimum wage environment.

It wouldn't make sense to raise the minimum wage on some and not others. In order for minimum wage to not increase unemployment too much then *everyone* has to be affected. Obviously, if for example, increase minimum wage only applied to Mcdonalds, then it would obviously lead to unemployment for McDonald workers since they'd have to raise prices, and people would just go to Burger King or Wendys instead. However, if the minimum wage is universized, all the prices increase and then unemployment is effected based on how much consumers demand the product or how easily workers can be subsituted.

Creating an exception for those over 20 and not those under 20 would just increase unemployment for those over 20, because why would you hire someone 20 years or older when you can hire someone under 20. And why must we assume that teenagers don't have many expenses so its alright if they work for less. Paying for college is incredibly expensive or living on your own. And its not like teenager pregnancy or pregnancies for those at age 18-19 don't occur. In a lot of ways younger people have a lot more expenses to worry about than older people
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2015 4:10:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 12:57:06 AM, darkkermit wrote:
It wouldn't make sense to raise the minimum wage on some and not others. In order for minimum wage to not increase unemployment too much then *everyone* has to be affected. Obviously, if for example, increase minimum wage only applied to Mcdonalds, then it would obviously lead to unemployment for McDonald workers since they'd have to raise prices, and people would just go to Burger King or Wendys instead. However, if the minimum wage is universized, all the prices increase and then unemployment is effected based on how much consumers demand the product or how easily workers can be subsituted.

Creating an exception for those over 20 and not those under 20 would just increase unemployment for those over 20, because why would you hire someone 20 years or older when you can hire someone under 20. And why must we assume that teenagers don't have many expenses so its alright if they work for less. Paying for college is incredibly expensive or living on your own. And its not like teenager pregnancy or pregnancies for those at age 18-19 don't occur. In a lot of ways younger people have a lot more expenses to worry about than older people

Hi Kermit, you are a long standing DDO guru on economics, so I'll ask you this.

Let us assume when wages are artificially set, the employer will typically first replace the employee with someone productive enough to justify the new wage, risk losing a competitive advantage by raising the price and passing it on to the customers secondly, and thirdly to eliminate the position altogether.

I deliberately left out the owner taking a pay-cut, because that flirts with an imaginary arbitrary line where the owner decides the risks of running a business are no longer worth the reward, and sells the business, causing across the board unemployment, both skilled and unskilled.

Working on my first assumption, wouldn't minimum wage always have negative effects for the unskilled labor candidate?

Do you think my assumption is flawed?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2015 5:30:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 4:10:27 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/25/2015 12:57:06 AM, darkkermit wrote:
It wouldn't make sense to raise the minimum wage on some and not others. In order for minimum wage to not increase unemployment too much then *everyone* has to be affected. Obviously, if for example, increase minimum wage only applied to Mcdonalds, then it would obviously lead to unemployment for McDonald workers since they'd have to raise prices, and people would just go to Burger King or Wendys instead. However, if the minimum wage is universized, all the prices increase and then unemployment is effected based on how much consumers demand the product or how easily workers can be subsituted.

Creating an exception for those over 20 and not those under 20 would just increase unemployment for those over 20, because why would you hire someone 20 years or older when you can hire someone under 20. And why must we assume that teenagers don't have many expenses so its alright if they work for less. Paying for college is incredibly expensive or living on your own. And its not like teenager pregnancy or pregnancies for those at age 18-19 don't occur. In a lot of ways younger people have a lot more expenses to worry about than older people

Hi Kermit, you are a long standing DDO guru on economics, so I'll ask you this.

Let us assume when wages are artificially set, the employer will typically first replace the employee with someone productive enough to justify the new wage, risk losing a competitive advantage by raising the price and passing it on to the customers secondly, and thirdly to eliminate the position altogether.

I deliberately left out the owner taking a pay-cut, because that flirts with an imaginary arbitrary line where the owner decides the risks of running a business are no longer worth the reward, and sells the business, causing across the board unemployment, both skilled and unskilled.

Working on my first assumption, wouldn't minimum wage always have negative effects for the unskilled labor candidate?

Do you think my assumption is flawed?

Okay, Greyparrot. To the first statement of employers replacing workers, there's no question that fire-aversion is actually a real thing. It's not great for morale either. Not to mention you also have to worry about retraining a bunch of new workers anyways.

Depending on the Labor-Leisure demand curve increasing overall wages would increase the numbers of hours worked. But it can also decrease wages as well. I'm not sure what the cut-off is though, just that there is one.

I'll finish later, need to get out of work.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2015 5:45:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I should note that my position on this and a lot of other things is in the works. I think a lot of arguments against the MW are rather horrid, and I'd particularly adverse to the assumption of efficient markets, but there are a few arguments--namely offset--that I do find rather convincing.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2015 11:57:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A centralized, state planned economy probably has at its core the responsibility to set the value of a person's labor.

That's not efficient.
Anarcho-Socialist
Posts: 22
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2015 6:35:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

I would personally like to see it at the minimum living wage if you are over 18, which is $14.50. I would also like to see inflation slowed, if not stopped.
Anarcho-Socialism
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." - Louis Blanc
"Voluntary self-segregation now, voluntary self-segregation tomorrow, voluntary self-segregation forever!" - Anonymous
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/26/2015 6:46:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 6:35:47 PM, Anarcho-Socialist wrote:
At 2/2/2015 1:00:53 AM, imabench wrote:
Im wondering myself and it now is something we have to write a paper about in a class I am taking.

The current minimum wage is $7.50, I was going to make a case for why it should be raised to somewhere between $9 and $10, but I am eager to hear any other arguments people have for what they would set it at and why.

I would personally like to see it at the minimum living wage if you are over 18, which is $14.50. I would also like to see inflation slowed, if not stopped.

The two points aren't exactly compatible. Though the inflationary impact of a MW hike are often overstated--and by that, i mean most people haven't the slightest idea of what inflation actually is, and they genuinely think increasing the MW by X percent will increase the price level X percent such that they perfectly offset nominal wage increases--most reasonable people agree that prices will rise somewhat. There may be efficiency gains in the form of reduced turnover and higher productivity, which would decelerate the pace at which prices rise, but this will by no means slow inflation.

Second, wanting inflation "stopped"--though this is admittedly non-topical--I think is to misunderstand what inflation actually is, or to confuse it with the cost of living. There's an interesting concept in macro called money illusion, which is the penchant to view things in strictly nominal terms. For instance, if inflation is 4 percent, it's true that you'll spend more, on average, at the grocery store, but nominal wages also tend to rise considerably--in fact, they're often indexed to various measures of inflation (though, notably, the MW is not, which is why its value in real terms has fallen for the past four decades). If nominal wages also rise by 4 percent, real purchasing power is unaffected.

Further, reasoning from any price chance by itself is a bad way to approach economics. Did inflation rise because of improvements in employment (demand-side), or from increases in costs (supply-side)? Further, did it fall because of a declining economy, or from productivity gains? These are critical to ascertaining the implications to societal welfare.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah